Tyrion UNDENIABLY raped the Sunset Girl

[Maid So Fair]

That's fine. But what is the point of the quibble? Was someone trying to blame Sansa for not realizing that Lancel would have been a better choice?

BTW, when you call Lancel a "religious fanatic" you reveal yourself to be a fanatic, and an intolerant bigot. Lancel has done nothing that anyone but a intolerant fanatic would find objectionable, unless you count the bad stuff he did before he repented and became religious. You insult not only him, but all religious people. But if you really want to insult him for NOT raping his spoils-of-war bride, be my guest.

What I'm saying is that Lancels' eventual religious conversion, which leads him to forsake things like marriage, couldn't have been a factor when Sansa's two marriage choices were being proposed back when we didn't know what Lancel would do.

And lol at me being an intolerant bigot for criticising someone for joining a fictional religion (to do such worthy things as escorting Cersei during the WOS). BTW, he wouldn't have been able to rape Gatehouse Ami - she was perfectly willing.

[David Selig]

It continues to amaze me that this is argued when it's so blatantly clear. Martin took such pains to make it obvious yet people still deny it. The power of wishful thinking, I guess.

[Alaynsa Starne]

This discussion confuses me. The slave girl behaved in pretty much the same way Sansa did on her and Tyrion's wedding night and Tyrion decides not to force her to have sex with him because he doesn't want to be a rapist. But he does force the slave girl. He knows she doesn't want him. He feels contempt for her on account of her rejection. He has sex with her maliciously. He feels sick and guilty afterwards. The text is pretty clear that we as readers are meant to view it as rape even if an entitled Westerosi lord doesn't. Actually, scratch that. Entitled Westerosi lords do recognize forcible sex with subordinates as rape: "before you make me rue the day I RAPED your mother."

[Lord Lannister]

I don't know, this seems a pretty pointless conversation as a poorly veiled pretext for people to vent how much they like/hate Tyrion. He raped the girl, there's pretty much no getting around that, even if he didn't go there with the intent. I find him an interesting and sympathetic character regardless.

[Morgul-Blade]

This entire thread is a waste of time.

[ChillyPolly]

What I'm saying is that Lancels' eventual religious conversion, which leads him to forsake things like marriage, couldn't have been a factor when Sansa's two marriage choices were being proposed back when we didn't know what Lancel would do.

I understand what you said. I just have no idea what your point was. And I still don't.

And lol at me being an intolerant bigot for criticising someone for joining a fictional religion

Ah! So that's why you called him a "religious fantatic"? Merely for being a member of the Faith of the Seven? Like Catelyn? Nothing to do with stuff like fasting and praying and repenting, and actually believing in "the gods", and other acts you find offensive.

[unitron]

It's possible to consent to sex if you are a sex worker. We don't know (nor necessisarily would have Jorah) if the girl Jorah was with consented.

It's clear the girl Tyrion was with did not consent.

Jorah may have raped a girl. Tyrion definitely did.

Assuming Jorah did more with her offstage than just sit her on his lap...

If she was a slave, then she consented, or didn't, to the same degree as the girl Tyrion was with.

[unitron]

In our world, maybe. In westeros, not really. If you don't "behave", you get whipped.

True, but they were actually in Essos at the time.

Where you could also get whipped, or worse, for disobedience, depending on your social status relative to the one holding the whip.

[unitron]

...

Tyrion has no dearth of shitty acts we can examine...

Please list the others.

Being born unattractive does not count.

[Chebyshov]

Please list the others.

Being born unattractive does not count.

You got me. I dislike Tyrion because he's ugly :rolleyes: . I'm working on something else so I don't really have time to respond in full (plus this is beyond the scope), but enjoy: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/106460-why-does-everybody-hate-tyrion-now/?p=5903414

[ChillyPolly]

(to do such worthy things as escorting Cersei during the WOS).

Yes, that was indeed worthy. He was guarding her. What did you want him to do? Let her get raped by a mob? But I think you were being sarcastic, which is very strange.

Yes, the walk of shame is ridiculous. But it's not Lancel's fault.

BTW, he wouldn't have been able to rape Gatehouse Ami - she was perfectly willing.

You made that up. Yes, she seems happy in AFFC, but no doubt Lancel has already told her of his plans to set her free. Do you really think she was the last to know?

[Luthien Targaryen]

Ok, Tyrion's a rapist. You've convinced me. I wasn't reading carefully enough. In my defence, I usually hurry past the sex scenes and don't pay that much attention.

Tyrion's still my favourite character though, one of the more interesting things about fiction is that you can become fond of fictional characters who you'd find morally repugnant or just plain despicable in real life.Most of the characters in ASOIAF have done something or other to shock, disturb or offend my sensibilities, be it telling their stepson that they wish he was dead, killed people in cold blood, executed people without a good reason, tossed small boys out of windows because they caught them boffing their twin sister or bullied pre-teen girls into submission. Tyrion's rap sheet is long, but most people have a crime or two in their CVs. If i couldn't overlook these things, i wouldn't enjoy the books at all.

I'm not really expecting or even wasting any time hoping for a happy ending for Tyrion, I just hope he turns his life around from where he is at the moment. I know it's a dark place he's gone to, but I think there's a flicker of hope, he doesn't attempt to initiate sex with Penny, even when she practically throws herself at him. Jaime managed to claw his way back to something that seems to resemble a socially acceptable standard of behaviour, I hope that Tyrion can too.

[Maid So Fair]

I understand what you said. I just have no idea what your point was. And I still don't.

That when people are discussing whether or not they would prefer Sansa had married Lancel, his later religious conversion is a non-factor, because it's talking about the character as he was at the time of Sansa's wedding.

Ah! So that's why you called him a "religious fantatic"? Merely for being a member of the Faith of the Seven? Like Catelyn? Nothing to do with stuff like fasting and praying and repenting, and actually believing in "the gods", and other acts you find offensive.

For dedicating his life to a clearly corrupt organisation to the exclusion of all else when he has a duty to his lands, people and family. For thinking self-harm will somehow make up for murder. But this discussion is clearly off topic in this thread.

[Annara Snow]

I don't think it was rape. I despise Tyrion but it wasn't rape.

It seems like not a single woman in this series has had consensual sex.

Asha Greyjoy, Arianne Martell, Daenerys Targaryen (except early on in her marriage to Drogo), Mellario (Doran's wife), Ellaria Sand, Mya Stone, Ygritte, Val, Dalla, Lysa Tully (with LF), Catelyn Tully (with Ned Stark), Cersei Lannister (with everyone she slept with except her husband Robert Baratheon), Jeyne Westerling, Melisandre, Myranda Royce (implied), Barbary Dustin, Marya (Davos' wife), Gilly (with Samwell), Amerei "Gatehouse Ami" Frey, even many of the prostitutes - Shae, Chataya (just those we're sure about)...

[ChillyPolly]

Please list the others.

Being born unattractive does not count.

(1) Getting a starving girl drunk so he could take advantage of her.

(2) Joining in the gang-rape of Tysha

(3) Never bothering to find out what happened to Tysha for 13 years.

(4) Gloating over Benjen's discomfort after Benjen gave him to coat off his back in freezing weather.

(5) Training Jon to be a self-pitying jerk, forcing Donal Noye to undo the damage.

(6) Gloating over the death of Jyk, after Jyk died defending him.

(7) Arming the mountain clans in order to send them to rape and pillage in the Vale.

(8) Gloating over the death of Masha Heddle.

(9) Sending his most vicious thug to seize a common girl for his use.

(10) Failing to send Shae back, even after learning she was seized at blade-point.

(11) Giving one of his thugs a medal for murdering a wineseller's son.

(12) Locking Shae in a manse surrounded by guards, and taking away all her gifts when he lets her out, ensuring she has no funds to escape him.

(13) Insists on continuing to see Shae, while refusing to pay her, even after Tywin's threat.

(14) Sends Myrcella to Dorne, then causes the Red Viper's death.

(15) Threatens to rape Tommen.

(16) Murders Symon Silvertongue.

(17) Murders his own father.

(18) Murders Shae.

(19) Plots to cause Myrcella's death, in order to make Cersei "weep bitter tears".

(20) Plots to rape and kill his own sister.

(21) Rapes the slave girl at Illyrio's.

(22) Rapes the slave girl at Selhoerys, knowing he may be infected with greyscale.

[David Selig]

(5) Training Jon to be a self-pitying jerk, forcing Donal Noye to undo the damage.

In fairness Jon already had the self-pitying part down pat before he met Tyrion.

[Annara Snow]

Would this conversation be occurring if Tyrion looked, in face and body, like Jaime?

Yes, you wise man, you have seen though us evil feminazis! We only hate it when ugly men commit rape! Handsome rapist are awesome, we all love them! :rolleyes:

*facepalm*

Since those horrified that Sansa had to marry Tyrion don't seem as though they would be nearly as upset if it had been Lancel, I have to wonder.

*double facepalm*

I don't even want to comment on that piece of bullshit you just pulled out of your you-know-what.

I'm so glad I don't know you in real life.

[Chebyshov]

Again, off-topic, but I was trying to explain to someone why I began to loathe Tyrion because of his treatment of Sansa alone. This is mostly @unitron, but for anyone who cares (spoiler tags for length):

Tyrion acts as if he's the victim in his marriage to Sansa. When Tywin suggested it to him, Tyrion had the option of saying no. He had the option of insisting she marry Lancel instead. Tywin made a vague mention that he'll marry Tyrion to some random lordling's daughter, that Lollys was offered, but Tyrion had complete agency in the situation. UNLIKE his 12-year old child-bride, who being a prisoner in this situation made it even more of a forced situation than most Westerosi arranged marriages. Tyrion wants Winterfell (gets his "queer chill from it), so he goes ahead with it. It's great that he gives Sansa the "choice" between marrying Captor A (himself) and B (Lancel), but this is absolutely not any form of consent.

And so begins Tyrion's self-pity in their marriage. At the wedding, Tyrion felt so embarrassed by Sansa's refusal to kneel, that he goes and gets shitfaced at the wedding and refuses to dance when she's being ridiculously nice for asking. The wedding night is beyond horrifying…you don’t get a cookie for stopping just shy of rape when you put yourself in this situation. Not to mention some of his remarks to her, knowing she’s 12 and married while under duress, are just so disturbing:

“A child,” he repeated, “but I want you. Does that frighten you, Sansa?”
…
“Gods have mercy.” The dwarf took another swallow of wine. “Well, talk won’t make you older. Shall we get on with this, my lady? If it please you?”

“It will please me to please my lord husband.”

That seemed to anger him. “You hide behind courtesy as if it were a castle wall.”

“Courtesy is a lady’s armor,” Sansa said. Her septa had always told her that.

“I am your husband. You can take off your armor now.”

Out of the gate he feels owed her affection, and is “angered” by her courtesy. How the hell else is she supposed to behave? Then his disgustingly voyeuristic attitude is a whole other issue, one which highlights his deeply ingrained sexism. The fact that her tacit rejection is enough to stop his advances is pretty impressive, truthfully, given his later exhibited castration anxiety (which becomes his MO for the rest of their marriage). And again. This entire situation was avoidable.

Then, for the rest of their marriage, we see him acting out his castration anxiety, pivoting from voyeurism/devaluation of her character to fetishistic scopophilia.

And their nights together in the great bed were another source of torment. He could no longer bear to sleep naked, as had been his custom. His wife was too well trained ever to say an unkind word, but the revulsion in her eyes whenever she looked on his body was more than he could bear. Tyrion had commanded Sansa to wear a sleeping shift as well. I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust. His mouth twisted in a bitter smile.

Okay, so that quote is one of my favorites to use, because he’s upset at a perceived revulsion on Sansa’s part. She meanwhile, is probably worried that every time he stirs in the middle the night, he could roll over and “claim his right.” Yet does Tyrion ever once think about that? No, it’s all about his comforts and his emotional needs. What’s truly troubling is that he understands why Sansa is rejecting him:

Sansa’s misery was deepening every day. Tyrion would gladly have broken through her courtesy to give her what solace he might, but it was no good. No words would ever make him fair in her eyes. Or any less a Lannister . This was the wife they had given him, for all the rest of his life, and she hated him.

Even understanding that she has every reason to hate him solely for his surname (who wouldn’t in that position), he makes it about his own insecurities, and becomes resentful at her refusal to share her thoughts with him.

We also see him continually devaluing her, from wondering if she was “stupid enough” to tell Cersei’s maids that he wasn’t fucking her (again, demonstrating his anxiety about not seeming enough of a man), to saying the demeaning, “the last thing my wife needs is more songs.” In a way it’s funny that he has such a deep misunderstanding of her character (and gets frustrated by his inability to read her), when she has him completely pegged from the wedding night on. FFS, he even thinks that maybe she wishes she was marrying Joffrey! But really, it serves to highlight just how self-absorbed he is.

Later in the marriage, Tyrion’s thoughts turn to how “beautiful” she looks, though always noting her grief and sorrow in the same context.

She is just as comely as the Tyrell girl. Her hair was a rich autumn auburn, her eyes a deep Tully blue. Grief had given her a haunted, vulnerable look; if anything, it had only made her more beautiful.

There’s something really perverse about him gaining some kind of pleasure from his gaze when her distress is so apparent.

And on top of all of this, Tyrion still feels owed her confidence, her thoughts, her affection, her claim. He feels hurt and rejected when she gives him her standard, cool and courteous response to his CR fieldtrip suggestion. Yes, it’s easy to pity him (Sansa does) in this situation. But his complete disregard for her person is inexcusable.

Or ya know, it's because I'm shallow.

[Ingelheim]

(1) Getting a starving girl drunk so he could take advantage of her.

(2) Joining in the gang-rape of Tysha

(3) Never bothering to find out what happened to Tysha for 13 years.

(4) Gloating over Benjen's discomfort after Benjen gave him to coat off his back in freezing weather.

(5) Training Jon to be a self-pitying jerk, forcing Donal Noye to undo the damage.

(6) Gloating over the death of Jyk, after Jyk died defending him.

(7) Arming the mountain clans in order to send them to rape and pillage in the Vale.

(8) Gloating over the death of Masha Heddle.

(9) Sending his most vicious thug to seize a common girl for his use.

(10) Failing to send Shae back, even after learning she was seized at blade-point.

(11) Giving one of his thugs a medal for murdering a wineseller's son.

(12) Locking Shae in a manse surrounded by guards, and taking away all her gifts when he lets her out, ensuring she has no funds to escape him.

(13) Insists on continuing to see Shae, while refusing to pay her, even after Tywin's threat.

(14) Sends Myrcella to Dorne, then causes the Red Viper's death.

(15) Threatens to rape Tommen.

(16) Murders Symon Silvertongue.

(17) Murders his own father.

(18) Murders Shae.

(19) Plots to cause Myrcella's death, in order to make Cersei "weep bitter tears".

(20) Plots to rape and kill his own sister.

(21) Rapes the slave girl at Illyrio's.

(22) Rapes the slave girl at Selhoerys, knowing he may be infected with greyscale.

Quite a few of these are not really true.

[Lord Lannister]

Quite a few of these are not really true.

That's just her way of saying I don't like Tyrion over and over again.