[TWoIaF spoilers] The Curious Tale of Hyrkoon the Hero

[Lord Varys]

Now, we know that Azor Ahai is known under many names in the Far East - my all time favorite is Eldric Shadowchaser - one of them, Hyrkoon the Hero.

And we know that there was was the Patrimony of Hyrkoon, possibly founded by some guy named Hyrkoon.

If that's the case, then the idea that this Hyrkoon guy traveled to Westeros, became the Last Hero, survived the fight, and returned to found some kingdom beyond the Bones is a huge stretch.

More importantly, the book proves that the cataclysm was experienced everywhere in the known world, and makes it clear that many cultures - the Yi Ti, the Rhoynar etc. - had their own mythic explanations why light and warmth came back. Nothing suggests that our good friend Eldric ever fought the Lion of the Night in Westeros.

The myth of Azor Ahai could just be that - a mythical explanation by a people in the Far East which had no clue about the Others but desperately craved an explanation for the cataclysm they faced.

If that's the case, then turning to Azor Ahai stories for hints about the true cause of the Long Night - and it's eventual end - is about as good an idea as to search for the origin of humanity in Australia.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Agreed.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

:agree:

[The hairy bear]

If that's the case, then turning to Azor Ahai stories for hints about the true cause of the Long Night - and it's eventual end - is about as good an idea as to search for the origin of humanity in Australia.

That's only if you think that's the Others that cause the cold, and not the cold that allows the Others to go south. I don't think it necessarly has to be this way.

[BearQueen87]

1. I want my book

2. Thanks for a brief rundown...I've been seeing some people talk about this and wasn't sure what was going on.

3. I agree with your interpretation that AA is a localized understanding and he, in all likelihood now, did not go to Westeros nor fight the Long Night. The myth sprang up afterwards to understand what was going on around them and drew on previous cultural heroes.

[Lord Varys]

Clarification:

We know the Long Night/cold was around the entire world. It went (supposedly) cold and dark everywhere. But none of the Eastern stories mention the Others or beings that seem to twisted versions of them.

There are also hints that peoples worked together to fight the evil (that's the core of the Rhoynish myth - the lesser gods of the Rhoyne sang a song and brought light and life back into the world).

There are also hints in there that some Eastern people - possibly the ancient Asshai'i who supposedly rode dragons before the Valyrians and taught them how to do it - helped in the fight against the Others, but those hints come not from the Azor Ahai tradition/myth cycle. He is clearly a Yi Ti/Hyrkoonish hero from beyond the Bones.

The picture of 'Hyrkoon the Hero wielding Lightbringer leading the righteous into battle' is really great by the way. He has pale blue eyes, by the way...

[Black Crow]

We know the Long Night/cold was around the entire world. It went (supposedly) cold and dark everywhere. But none of the Eastern stories mention the Others or beings that seem to twisted versions of them.

True, but then notwithstanding the bringing the cold/coming with the cold conundrum [lifted straight from The Ice Dragon] it doesn't necessarily follow that the Others were responsible for the Long Night, or whether as Old Nan's telling of the last hero story seems to suggest they simply took advantage of it. After all she spends a fair bit of time describing how awful it was before finally getting around to saying that during that winter the walkers tooled up for the first time.

[BearQueen87]

So is it safe to say that most every culture has some sort of hero that brought back the light and warmth--but they obviously aren't all the same person? Which makes total sense in regards to how archetypical heroes work IRL. Universal constructs at play.

[BearQueen87]

@LordVarys, a question if you don't mind ( I really want my book...). Since we're on the topic, does the book mention any kind of Dothraki hero who brought the light and warmth, or anything in a similar vein as Hyrkoon/AA?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Clarification:

We know the Long Night/cold was around the entire world. It went (supposedly) cold and dark everywhere. But none of the Eastern stories mention the Others or beings that seem to twisted versions of them.

There are also hints that peoples worked together to fight the evil (that's the core of the Rhoynish myth - the lesser gods of the Rhoyne sang a song and brought light and life back into the world).

There are also hints in there that some Eastern people - possibly the ancient Asshai'i who supposedly rode dragons before the Valyrians and taught them how to do it - helped in the fight against the Others, but those hints come not from the Azor Ahai tradition/myth cycle. He is clearly a Yi Ti/Hyrkoonish hero from beyond the Bones.

The picture of 'Hyrkoon the Hero wielding Lightbringer leading the righteous into battle' is really great by the way. He has pale blue eyes, by the way...

Benjen? :p

[Lord Varys]

Nope, no Dothraki in there. The general Long Night is discussed somewhat in the Long Night chapter, and Hyrkoon then is mentioned again in the Yi Ti section.

A very interesting and curious detail is that some cultures believe that the sun hid her face because she was ashamed about something, and no could find out what it was but a woman with a monkey's tail. Just fun stuff, or a hint that only partially non-human people can save the day? Or a nod to the twisted little monkey demon?

As to the causation of the Long Night:

It is confirmed/very heavily implied that the seasons were 'normal' prior to the Long Night. That effectively confirms that the Long Night had a magical cause, and its effects are still lingering which can be seen in the freak seasons. And it is of course a possibility that the Others themselves are not be the agents who caused the Long Night, but merely another species/race which was born/created throughout it.

Hyrkoon's eye color:

Well, I meant to say pale blue as in in colorless watery blue, not so much the pale blue of the eyes of the Others. It's not completely impossible that he is depicted as a 'proto-Valyrian'.

[OberynBlackfyre]

I am soooo glad they touched upon the fact that the Long NIght was felt around the whole Planetos. I (and others I'm sure) have seriously wondered about that for a long time.

It also shows that it doesn't matter where a person like Dany/Arya/Tyrion are, they will have to be part of the "Main Conflict" that is the Long Night 2.0 because it is something that will literally effect the entirety of the world.

I also think it's super interesting (and probably true) that the Dragons actually came from Asshai/The Shadow and that they taught the Valyrians how to control dragons.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Nope, no Dothraki in there. The general Long Night is discussed somewhat in the Long Night chapter, and Hyrkoon then is mentioned again in the Yi Ti section.

A very interesting and curious detail is that some cultures believe that the sun hid her face because she was ashamed about something, and no could find out what it was but a woman with a monkey's tail. Just fun stuff, or a hint that only partially non-human people can save the day? Or a nod to the twisted little monkey demon?

As to the causation of the Long Night:

It is confirmed/very heavily implied that the seasons were 'normal' prior to the Long Night. That effectively confirms that the Long Night had a magical cause, and its effects are still lingering which can be seen in the freak seasons. And it is of course a possibility that the Others themselves are not be the agents who caused the Long Night, but merely another species/race whatever born through it.

Hyrkoon's eye color:

Well, I meant to say pale blue as in in colorless watery blue, not so much the pale blue of the eyes of the Others. It's not completely impossible that he is depicted as a 'proto-Valyrian'.

Yes exactly! They finally touched and kind of spelled out that the seasons were pretty much a "natural" or at least somewhat normal before the Long Night. I thought the line of "The sun hid in shame from what it had done" was something interesting.....

[Ibbison from Ibben]

@LordVarys, a question if you don't mind ( I really want my book...). Since we're on the topic, does the book mention any kind of Dothraki hero who brought the light and warmth, or anything in a similar vein as Hyrkoon/AA?

Dothraki history only goes back 400 years. They're post-Doom.

[BearQueen87]

Nope, no Dothraki in there. The general Long Night is discussed somewhat in the Long Night chapter, and Hyrkoon then is mentioned again in the Yi Ti section.

A very interesting and curious detail is that some cultures believe that the sun hid her face because she was ashamed about something, and no could find out what it was but a woman with a monkey's tail. Just fun stuff, or a hint that only partially non-human people can save the day? Or a nod to the twisted little monkey demon?

As to the causation of the Long Night:

It is confirmed/very heavily implied that the seasons were 'normal' prior to the Long Night. That effectively confirms that the Long Night had a magical cause, and its effects are still lingering which can be seen in the freak seasons. And it is of course a possibility that the Others themselves are not be the agents who caused the Long Night, but merely another species/race whatever born through it.

Hyrkoon's eye color:

Well, I meant to say pale blue as in in colorless watery blue, not so much the pale blue of the eyes of the Others. It's not completely impossible that he is depicted as a 'proto-Valyrian'.

Oh good! I'm glad that got somewhat settled (taking into account that this isn't "fact" so much as retelling, and all that jazz). So the question becomes what was the magical cause. Were dragons around before the Long Night, or did they spring in existence like perhaps the Others. Given that so much of ASOIAF is about balance, if the Others were born through the Long Night, it would follow that the same could be said of the dragons.

[BearQueen87]

Dothraki history only goes back 400 years. They're post-Doom.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have their own cultural tales of heroes from before. "We came from Hero X who did Y during this great moment in history" sort of deal.

[Free Northman Reborn]

"The sun hid in shame from what it had done"

Well that is very interesting. Of course, we KNOW what the sun had done. It had cracked open the second moon, spilling forth a million dragons.

So that heavily implies that the Long Night was caused by the celestial event remembered as the second moon that cracked open after wandering too close to the sun, and which spilled forth the million dragons. Thus it seems to link the birth of the dragons shortly BEFORE the Long Night, to the Long Night that followed relatively shortly thereafter.

[OberynBlackfyre]

"The sun hid in shame from what it had done"

Well that is very interesting. Of course, we KNOW what the sun had done. It had cracked open the second moon, spilling forth a million dragons.

So that heavily implies that the Long Night was caused by the celestial event remembered as the second moon that cracked open after wandering too close to the sun, and which spilled forth the million dragons. Thus it seems to link the birth of the dragons shortly BEFORE the Long Night, to the Long Night that followed relatively shortly thereafter.

IDK if it means exactly that the whole second moon theory is for sure proven, but I do think that it could be a type of nature trying to balance itself out type of thing. For instance if Valyria was forming somewhat (or at least the seeds of it were) DURING the Long Night, then it could be that nature itself was trying to give a balance....although nature works in a different time frame.

Remember that dragons (as it says in the book) are much older than even the giants. That dragons could have been found in Westeros, and far North in Essos. Yet by the time the Long NIght happened it seemed they (dragons) have become somewhat rare. And not found at all (that we know of) in Westeros any longer.

[Free Northman Reborn]

IDK if it means exactly that the whole second moon theory is for sure proven, but I do think that it could be a type of nature trying to balance itself out type of thing. For instance if Valyria was forming somewhat (or at least the seeds of it were) DURING the Long Night, then it could be that nature itself was trying to give a balance....although nature works in a different time frame.

Remember that dragons (as it says in the book) are much older than even the giants. That dragons could have been found in Westeros, and far North in Essos. Yet by the time the Long NIght happened it seemed they (dragons) have become somewhat rare. And not found at all (that we know of) in Westeros any longer.

Well, no. Where in the books does it say that the dragons are older than the giants? All it says is that humans actually remember the time when the dragons first arrived. Which was apparently when the second moon cracked open. And humans also remember that there were firewyrms before there were dragons. All of which implies that humans were around at the time to pass these details on to their descendants.

Humans therefore appear to predate dragons. And since giants appear to predate humans, giants are therefore a more ancient race than dragons.

[Lord Varys]

The sun mostly means a sun god(dess) in this regard, not the actual son.