[TWoIaF spoilers] The Curious Tale of Hyrkoon the Hero

[Hrafntýr]

We do not (yet) know what defeated the Others the first time around. We know precious little about the Others, about what activates or motivates them, whether they are free agents or working for someone else, etc. And just because the Westerosi think the Long Night ended because of the actions of their culture hero, we don't, in fact, know that this is what was solely responsible for the end of the global phenomenon of the end of the Long Night. I think Ramsay's Penguins' idea of a "world war" is an interesting and plausible scenario.

[Mithras]

So if this is a term coined by the Andals, yet Valyrian steel was yet to exist, then I do think it was likely that it actually refers to dragonglass, and an alliance with the Children.

The Last Hero's sword snapped, and they gave him a new one of dragonglass, and possibly allied with them to, bringing more dragonglass and the beasts to battle.

Dragonglass existed back then too. CotF used it to fight humans. Wildlings still use it. I don't think that is the critical information the LH learned from the CotF to change the tide of the war.

[Ser Creighton]

Wait wut? Elric and Yyrkoon, did you say? Wielding StormLightbringer? So AA is another aspect of the Eternal Champion?

Yeah, of course it is, use to talk about this with Alia. Martin was a big Moorcock fan he even has talked about Bloodraven and Elric. Though a lot of people ignore it for some reason. The soul stealing sword, the dark conflicted hero. The fractured hero, unable to exist without Stormbringer but the two are always in conflict. Yrkoon his cousin.

I mean come on the Weird of the White Wolf lives on. The special magic bloodline, the man dressed all in black for crying out loud, an Albino.

Basically if you know the Elric saga you can pick up on the homage Martin is playing at. Though I suspect that AA is really something that occurs every generation. AAR would be Elric, and Nissa Nissa of course becomes Stormbringer or lightbringer in this case. Probably a AAR character in every generation, Bloodraven being the last him and Seastar were the AAR and Nissa Nissa of their generation, though the prophecy never came to pass, so no need for Lightbringer. Now there is another pair on the field as the Others come. Jon Snow, and Daenerys Stormborn. You know there is a reason I wrote Sun and Moon and use inverse parallels. Next thing you know Martin will have Dragon Masters and incest in his books like Moorcock does. You know Jon may get a sword but sword does not always have to be a sword. It's basic unity of opposition, just like in the title. Granted it won't be the same as the Elric Saga but he does have a nice way of using it to drop clues.

He tends to use a lot of homages to his favorite authors and books to drop clues about his series and create the history. What he is giving the reader in a way is his own history, these are what inspire this series, these books and writers from his own past. Glad to see another reader catching on to the Elric theme. There are actually a few people who talk about this now and then.

You ever read the Revenge of the Rose, the 3 sibling blades. Oh and lets not forget Mourneblade the Brother to Stormbringer, next thing you know we will get a Sword of the Morning and Evening. You know the ending of the saga also relates the cyclical theme of life as the cycle begins again in the newly balanced world. The entire series itself was about the unity of opposition, Order and Chaos finding balance.

[Kingmonkey]

Oh and lets not forget Mourneblade the Brother to Stormbringer, next thing you know we will get a Sword of the Morning and Evening. You know the ending of the saga also relates the cyclical theme of life as the cycle begins again in the newly balanced world. The entire series itself was about the unity of opposition, Order and Chaos finding balance.

Sword of the Dawn, you mean? ;^)

There are some who feel that Hyrkoon is a reference to a character in the Princess of Mars series with the same name, but when it's one letter away from Yyrkoon and in the same sentence as another character one letter away from Elric, I'm not buying it.

Bloodraven? Well I think once you have Elric, it's hard not to see any fantasy novel albino as being a bit Elric. On the other hand, when you've got an albino sorcerer, one of the last of a race of dragon-riders from an ancient fallen kingdom that once ruled the world, it probably is just a little bit Elric.

GRRM loves, as you say, to put in references to his favourite works. Some things -- H.P. Lovecraft, for example -- get a lot of namechecking. Some are a bigger influence on the storyline than just something to namecheck and sneak in for background detail. I think the Eternal Champion series is one of those, and when it comes to opposition and balance, Ice vs. Fire is a bit Law vs. Chaos. Whenever Melissandre wants to make a blood sacrifice, I can't help but think of "Blood and souls for my Lord Arioch!", and I think the whole point of Moorcock's chaos vs. law dichotomy as opposed to the traditional good vs. evil is very much something we're seeing in ASOIAF. I will not be at all surprised to find that the supposed champion of fire turns out to be an agent of the Eternal Balance all along.

[Mithras]

All those heroes who supposedly fought in the LN under different names at dfferent locations are actually like the avatars of the Eternal Champion. There was only one true hero who ended the Long Night and it was the Last Hero. All those other heroes were created later by different cultures to mimic his story.

It is ironic that the actual hero is the one whose name was lost to history.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

All those heroes who supposedly fought in the LN under different names at dfferent locations are actually like the avatars of the Eternal Champion. There was only one true hero who ended the Long Night and it was the Last Hero. All those other heroes were created later by different cultures to mimic his story.

It is ironic that the actual hero is the one whose name was lost to history.

The Rhoynar claim that the turtle, crab fish etc. gods sang a secret song to bring back the Dawn. Those who sing the song of the earth? CotF involvement to me.

Asshai had a hero who fought with a red sword.

Followers of R'hllor claim this hero is Azor Ahai.

The northerner believe that the Last Hero joined with the Children of the Forest, and led the men of the Nights Watch to win the battle for the Dawn.

Further east, a warrior that is known as Hyrkoon (who looks like a white guy lol), Yin Tar, Neferion and Eldric Shadowchaser (sounds Westerosi) wielding Lightbringer turned back the Lion of the Night and bought back the Maiden-Made-of-Light.

The two main recurring patterns are, a singular hero with a special sword (red or flaming or dragonglass) and the involvement of animals. Singing turtles, and dark lions.

To me, this almost certainly means the involvement of the Children (worldwide, not just in Westeros) up to the Rhoyne, which also had singing animals (sound familiar?), while to the further east, it was always a hero with a flaming sword.

It is hard to make anything of, but I believe that the last hero, leading the Nights Watch, found and allied with the Children, who showed them to use obsidian against the Others and allied with them, and this caused a worldwide removal of the White Walkers, including in the east, who lead by flaming sword heroes (possibly a metaphor for dragons) removed them from the lands.

Or, if the Children sent the WW, then the last hero infiltrated them and learned of dragonglass. We do not know whose side the giants were on, since they aided in the building of the Wall, but are suggested to have fought with the Others.

I highly doubt an actual ice spider exists, and I also doubt that they would be wighted giant spiders, so wighted krakens anyone? Spiders are likely a shout out to Shelob.

Omg i forgot monkey tailed woman back on...........

[Lord Varys]

There is no reason for other cultures to mimic another culture's hero. Any culture experiencing the Long Night would not have thought 'Well, perhaps the origin of this devastating punishment of the gods has something to do with those savage Westerosi'. The various peoples would have thought 'What have we/our leaders done wrong to deserve this kind of punishment from our gods'.

And as the years went by they would have attributed the deed to end the Long Night to one of their heroes rather to those from some other land, especially not from some place were only unwashed savages lived.

Not to mention that not all tales about the Long Night even talk about a hero. Yes, the Yi Tish know the story about Hyrkoon/Azor Ahai/Yin Tar/Eldric Shadowchaser, but there is also the Yi Tish story about the deeds of the woman with a monkey's tail...

[BearQueen87]

There is no reason for other cultures to mimic another cultures hero. Any culture experiencing the Long Night would not have thought 'Well, perhaps the origin of this devastating punishment of the gods has something to do with those savage Westerosi'. The various peoples would have thought 'What have we/our leaders done wrong to deserve this kind of punishment from our gods'.

And as the years went by they would have attributed the deed to end the Long Night to one of their heroes rather to those from some other land, especially not from some place were only unwashed savages lived.

Not to mention that not all tales about the Long Night even talk about a hero. Yes, the Yi Tish know the story about Hyrkoon/Azor Ahai/Yin Tar/Eldric Shadowchaser, but there is also the Yi Tish story about the deeds of the woman with a monkey's tail...

To the bold: Agreed! They looked to answers in their own land and their own cultural heroes, not the western world. Even if the LN was stopped by one guy in Westeros it doesn't diminish the Essoi's understanding of their own cultural heroes. They aren't suddenly going to go, "oh it was really this savage Westerosi? Okay, we'll stop singing songs and praises of the people who embody what we think is heroic from our cultural standpoint."

Really wish we knew more about this woman with a monkey's tail...lol. Sounds like a good story.

[Lord Varys]

There could really be something to that...

1. The hero could be a woman. Hello Daenerys.

2. The hero may be not completely human. Hello 'dragon blood'.

3. The hero may be somewhat disfigured/odd. Hello Tyrion.

To make a connection between Valyrian/dragonlord blood and the story of the Long Night we should give the possibility a thought that the original Last Hero in Westeros was either one of the people who eventually founded Valyria (if he survived) or kin to those people (there is little reason to assume that a person with Targaryen blood could be reborn version of a hero of the past if that historical hero had essentially nothing to do with the Targaryens). I'd assume that those guys were the disappeared race from Asshai who supposedly taught the Valyrians how to tame and ride (or create) dragons.

Those ancient Asshai'i would have had the necessary magical means to realize in Asshai what was the true cause of the Long Night, and some of them could have traveled to Westeros (on dragonback or by some other means) to help deal with the threat.

[Mithras]

There is no reason for other cultures to mimic another culture's hero. Any culture experiencing the Long Night would not have thought 'Well, perhaps the origin of this devastating punishment of the gods has something to do with those savage Westerosi'. The various peoples would have thought 'What have we/our leaders done wrong to deserve this kind of punishment from our gods'.

And as the years went by they would have attributed the deed to end the Long Night to one of their heroes rather to those from some other land, especially not from some place were only unwashed savages lived.

Not to mention that not all tales about the Long Night even talk about a hero. Yes, the Yi Tish know the story about Hyrkoon/Azor Ahai/Yin Tar/Eldric Shadowchaser, but there is also the Yi Tish story about the deeds of the woman with a monkey's tail...

Except that is very common in real world.

[Lord Varys]

Really? So are the heroes of Japan and China the same as those of Norway and Iceland?

I don't think so.

You can look for common tropes and similar stories in ancient myths and the like, but that does not mean that they have caused each other, or even heard of each other.

Not to mention that real world humanity does not share Martinworld's history of a cataclysm that effected all of humanity in ancient times. But if such a thing happened in the real world, the peoples living in the Americas, Australia, and Europe would all find different ways to explain cause and effect in their own language.

And it would effectively be the same in a world like Martinworld where pretty much no one in the advanced East would have any reason to believe that the actual causation of the cataclysm may have occurred on an unknown/obscure backwater continent.

Imagine a conversation in Yin 8,000 or 6,000 years ago:

Yi Tish sailor: 'I've met some illiterate sailor from a place called Oldtown in Ghis. He claims that the Long Night was actually caused by some creatures he calls 'the Others' and ended only because some savage they call 'the Last Hero' defeated them in some battle. I find this story much more plausible than the tradition of our priests.'

Average Yi Tish: 'Then go and marry an illiterate savage from the end of the world if you like their stories better than ours.'

[Mithras]

Really? So are the heroes of Japan and China the same as those of Norway and Iceland?

I don't think so.

You can look for common tropes and similar stories in ancient myths and the like, but that does not mean that they have caused each other, or even heard of each other.

Not to mention that real world humanity does not share Martinworld's history of a cataclysm that effected all of humanity in ancient times. But if such a thing happened in the real world, the peoples living in the Americas, Australia, and Europe would all find different ways to explain cause and effect in their own language.

And it would effectively be the same in a world like Martinworld where pretty much no one in the advanced East would have any reason to believe that the actual causation of the cataclysm may have occurred on an unknown/obscure backwater continent.

Imagine a conversation in Yin 8,000 or 6,000 years ago:

Yi Tish sailor: 'I've met some illiterate sailor from a place called Oldtown in Ghis. He claims that the Long Night was actually caused by some creatures he calls 'the Others' and ended only because some savage they call 'the Last Hero' defeated them in some battle. I find this story much more plausible than the tradition of our priests.'

Average Yi Tish: 'Then go and marry an illiterate savage from the end of the world if you like their stories better than ours.'

Except there are lots of flood myths all around the world.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

Really? So are the heroes of Japan and China the same as those of Norway and Iceland?

I don't think so.

You can look for common tropes and similar stories in ancient myths and the like, but that does not mean that they have caused each other, or even heard of each other.

Not to mention that real world humanity does not share Martinworld's history of a cataclysm that effected all of humanity in ancient times. But if such a thing happened in the real world, the peoples living in the Americas, Australia, and Europe would all find different ways to explain cause and effect in their own language.

And it would effectively be the same in a world like Martinworld where pretty much no one in the advanced East would have any reason to believe that the actual causation of the cataclysm may have occurred on an unknown/obscure backwater continent.

Imagine a conversation in Yin 8,000 or 6,000 years ago:

Yi Tish sailor: 'I've met some illiterate sailor from a place called Oldtown in Ghis. He claims that the Long Night was actually caused by some creatures he calls 'the Others' and ended only because some savage they call 'the Last Hero' defeated them in some battle. I find this story much more plausible than the tradition of our priests.'

Average Yi Tish: 'Then go and marry an illiterate savage from the end of the world if you like their stories better than ours.'

They would probably go like: "Blasphemy!!! take him to the Pyre.. there is only one hero and his name is (insert local hero)"

[Lord Varys]

Of course they are. Just as there are lots of gods. Does this mean every god is the same, or goes back to the same basic 'god story'? No.

Every human being ever living on the planet earth has once or twice encountered (or heard of) the phenomenon 'rain'. And pretty much every child asks his parents during a very strong rainstorm: 'What's going to happen if it does not stop raining?'

Not to mention that lots of the flood myths in the European/Middle Eastern regions are essentially rip-offs of the Sumerian version.

But, really, everything you need to invent a 'flood myth' is 'rain', 'the sea', or a 'pretty big river your agriculture depends upon'.

[Mithras]

Not to mention that lots of the flood myths in the European/Middle Eastern regions are essentially rip-offs of the Sumerian version.

which is how the Essossi LN heroes are essentially rip-offs of the LH.

We see that Theon Stark was able to take troops to Andalos and kick ass during the Andal invasion. We see that Oldtown is a trading port since gods know when.

I also assume that Shivering Sea was completely frozen during the LN.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

-

[John Doe]

"The sun hid in shame from what it had done" was something interesting.....

Mankind?

[Lord Varys]

Come on, Mithras, you are a smart guy. You know that the Mesopotamian region is much closer to all the lands who cooked up their own flood tale than Westeros would be to Yi Ti or Asshai. And even the Rhoynar and Sarnor Westeros would have about zero contact at the time/shortly after the Long Night, and they had never such intense continent that the Westerosi could enforce/make the other cultures swallow their tale (or gestate enough interest in their culture to model their own tales after this Westerosi hero.

Westeros has exported no cultural trait whatsoever. No culture in Essos or the Summer Isles gives a fig about

- the weirwoods to Children/First Men

- the Faith of the Andals

- knighthood and its 'virtues'

- a feudal aristocracy build upon huge castles as centers of civilization/power

- stupid banners

Why the hell would they care about the obscure story of the Last Hero, if they did not care about any of that? All of Essos should laugh about the stories of Pate the Pig-boy (they are supposed to be funny, after all) before they would model their own cultural heritage after the Last Hero...

That would really be 'We are a great and mighty civilization, the peak of the known world, but actually the guy who saved all of humanity came from a place we did neither know nor care about'. That's just silly.

If the Last Hero's story had influenced other cultures, those cultures would also have been interested in Westeros as a place. Which they were (and still are) not.

[BearQueen87]

Except there are lots of flood myths all around the world.

Universal constructs from societies that both revere and fear water. It's not mimicry..it's basic human understanding that the water that gives them life can also destroy it.

[Hrafntýr]

Except there are lots of flood myths all around the world.

Yeah, and think of all those ignorant pre-Columbian Americans who didn't know that humankind was really saved from the deluge by Atrahasis or Noah or whoever.

I won't absolutely rule out historical diffusionism as an explanation, but a sort of "convergent evolution" just seems much more probable, i.e. that all these societies, including Westeros, came up with their own explanatory frameworks for both the Long Night and its end. And personally, I don't even rule out the possibility that the actions of people over in Essos and beyond might also have had an impact on the end of the Long Night. Given that we don't know how localized or worldwide are the forces of magical balance and imbalance between light/dark, fire/ice, instability/stasis, it makes sense to me that actions might have consequences far away. But then I freely admit that I'm an outlier who thinks that the WWs might not even be free agents, and might be serving someone/something else....