[TWoIaF spoilers] The Curious Tale of Hyrkoon the Hero

[Black Crow]

Oh good! I'm glad that got somewhat settled (taking into account that this isn't "fact" so much as retelling, and all that jazz). So the question becomes what was the magical cause. Were dragons around before the Long Night, or did they spring in existence like perhaps the Others. Given that so much of ASOIAF is about balance, if the Others were born through the Long Night, it would follow that the same could be said of the dragons.

In this context its worth noting this passage at the end of Yandel's essay on the Long Night:

"...Now, six thousand years later [or eight thousand as True History puts forward], the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned..."

If the Long Night was indeed more recent then its getting very close to the Vayrian acquisition of their dragons

[Free Northman Reborn]

In this context its worth noting this passage at the end of Yandel's essay on the Long Night:

"...Now, six thousand years later [or eight thousand as True History puts forward], the Wall made to defend the realms of men is still manned..."

If the Long Night was indeed more recent then its getting very close to the Vayrian acquisition of their dragons

Black Crow

Note that the True History also places the Andal arrival at 4000 years ago, vs the alternative history putting it at 2000 years ago. It is interesting that in both versions, the gap between the Long Night and the Andal arrival remains a consistent 4000 years. Nullifying any suggestions that the Andals were around during the Long Night.

As to the Valyrians, the more likely scenario is that the Valyrian dragons were survivors of the Long Night apocalypse, sheltered by the heat of their volcanos, while all other known dragons - including those native to Westeros - died out during the Long Winter.

[Black Crow]

Black Crow

Note that the True History also places the Andal arrival at 4000 years ago, vs the alternative history putting it at 2000 years ago. It is interesting that in both versions, the gap between the Long Night and the Andal arrival remains a consistent 4000 years. Nullifying any suggestions that the Andals were around during the Long Night.

As to the Valyrians, the more likely scenario is that the Valyrian dragons were survivors of the Long Night apocalypse, sheltered by the heat of their volcanos, while all other known dragons - including those native to Westeros - died out during the Long Winter.

I think these are two quite separate issues. I agree that the Andals were nowhere near Westeros during the Long Night and have never suggested they were, but whatever the "mechanics" of how things panned out the apparent convergence of the events suggests that the seasons were upset by a magical event involving both ice and fire rather than the Long Night being a random singular occurrence.

ETA: spelling

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think these are two quite separate issues. I agree that the Andals were nowhere near Westeros during the Long Night and have never suggested they were, but whatever the "mechanics" of how things panned out the apparent convergence of the events suggests that the seasons were upset by a magical event involving both ice and fire rather than the Long Night being a random singular occurrence.

ETA: spelling

Well, if the sun represents Fire, and the Moon represents Ice, then the second moon wandering to close to the sun and cracking open, spilling forth dragons might well be he event in question, however warped the telling of it has become over the millenia.

[Mithras]

I was planning to open this thread. The Long Night was felt everywhere and all the cultures produced their own hero as the savior. I proved right in arguing that the legends of AA and the LH are related.

BTW, according to the Rhoynish, the Long Night ended after the lesser gods like the Crab King and the Old Man of the River ended their bickering and made common cause. This sounds so much like the bickering about the game of thrones.

[BearQueen87]

I was planning to open this thread. The Long Night was felt everywhere and all the cultures produced their own hero as the savior. I proved right in arguing that the legends of AA and the LH are related.

BTW, according to the Rhoynish, the Long Night ended after the lesser gods like the Crab King and the Old Man of the River ended their bickering and made common cause. This sounds so much like the bickering about the game of thrones.

I don't think anyone ever doubted that the AA and LH tales are related, not in the broad sense of universal heroic saviors, but clearly now AA and LH aren't the same person. There was a cultural hero that arose in many parts of the globe. It wasn't a matter of trade or people coming and going from Westeros. They are only related in the sense that many cultures have heroes that spring up during a time of great crisis.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I don't think anyone ever doubted that the AA and LH tales are related, not in the broad sense of universal heroic saviors, but clearly now AA and LH aren't the same person. There was a cultural hero that arose in many parts of the globe. It wasn't a matter of trade or people coming and going from Westeros. They are only related in the sense that many cultures have heroes that spring up during a time of great crisis.

Agreed.

And it's actually stated in the world book that the story of Lightbringer originated from Asshai and the tale spread west in Essos with the Red Faith attaching the name "Azor Ahai" on to it.

[Lord Varys]

In that sense 'Azor Ahai Reborn' most likely means - in regard of the coming War for the Dawn - that true hero from back then will return (or rather some person who will fulfill a similar role), but not whatever myth and legend believe Hyrkoon the Hero did.

The cultures of the East just believe that their Azor Ahai was that hero, when in fact it was some guy operating in Westeros.

The ancient Asshai'i relation to dragons clearly is something that may become important. There are pretty strong hints that there was a sort of ancient proto-Valyrian race that could pull off pretty much everything the Valyrians could. The Five Forts are made from dragon stone, after all.

[Free Northman Reborn]

In that sense 'Azor Ahai Reborn' most likely means - in regard of the coming War for the Dawn - that true hero from back then will return (or rather some person who will fulfill a similar role), but not whatever myth and legend believe Hyrkoon the Hero did.

The cultures of the East just believe that their Azor Ahai was that hero, when in fact it was some guy operating in Westeros.

The ancient Asshai'i relation to dragons clearly is something that may become important. There are pretty strong hints that there was a sort of ancient proto-Valyrian race that could pull off pretty much everything the Valyrians could. The Five Forts are made from dragon stone, after all.

Could explain the "dragon steel" used by the Last Hero in the Long Night, long before the Valyrians were around to make Valyrian steel.

[Ingelheim]

Is there any name given to this hero for the Valyrians? Or they didn't have one?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Any occurances of the number 13? We are told that The Last Hero had 13 companions. In the show we saw 13 others with the 'Night's King' who was the 13th Lord Commander? Any hints about that in this? Its led to thought we may be looking at 13 heros in the story.

[Mithras]

butterbumps heatedly argued against any relationship between them when I proposed that the source of AA was in Westeros and when it came to the East, the legends were distorted and "tamed".

This reveal is slightly more different. It suggests that the Long Night was felt everywhere (though not with the same ferocity) and every culture produced a savior myth. But still, the sources of those myths in the East might come from Westeros because no timeframe was given.

butterbumps also rejected my opinion that the mission attributed to Dany by Benerro as the AAR was political BS based on his false interpretations.

I don't think anyone ever doubted that the AA and LH tales are related, not in the broad sense of universal heroic saviors, but clearly now AA and LH aren't the same person. There was a cultural hero that arose in many parts of the globe. It wasn't a matter of trade or people coming and going from Westeros. They are only related in the sense that many cultures have heroes that spring up during a time of great crisis.

It is clear that whatever the Last Hero did led to the victory. It is highly unlikely that there were Others in Essos.

Agreed.

And it's actually stated in the world book that the story of Lightbringer originated from Asshai and the tale spread west in Essos with the Red Faith attaching the name "Azor Ahai" on to it.

In Westeros where the real action took place, the Andals coined the term dragon-steel for the weapon of the LH. I do not doubt that the Red Religion and its myths were founded in Essos but my claim is that all of their sources were at Westeros. They "tamed" the legends coming from the West about the Long Night and produced their own myths accordingly.

I don't think different heroes rose up in different cultures at the same time to deal with the shared Long Night. Myths do not work that way.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

The ancient Asshai'i relation to dragons clearly is something that may become important. There are pretty strong hints that there was a sort of ancient proto-Valyrian race that could pull off pretty much everything the Valyrians could. The Five Forts are made from dragon stone, after all.

Nice catch!

I hadn't read that part, just checked. Also the descriptions of most of the buildings in Asshai are black and dark, so I would assume those could be dragon stone aswell.

Is there any name given to this hero for the Valyrians? Or they didn't have one?

I believe they didn't, since they rose right after the Long Night.

[BearQueen87]

butterbumps heatedly argued against any relationship between them when I proposed that the source of AA was in Westeros and when it came to the East, the legends were distorted and "tamed".

Hmm. By source of AA do you mean the person who really put an end to the Long Night, because that I agree with--whatever the end was, it happened in Westeros. But each culture developed their own stories/hero that fought this cataclysm, even if there were no Others. AA wasn't in Westeros and then those tales spread east, at least not as far as I can tell. We're talking about universal archetypes. Darkness falls and light is brought--once the light is brought, people struggle to figure out how that happens and the answer is a cultural hero. AA = / = LH, AA is just the name of one cultural hero specific to one culture who is used to explain the end of darkness.

I don't think different heroes rose up in different cultures at the same time to deal with the shared Long Night. Myths do not work that way.

Each culture developed their own myth but that doesn't mean it had to come from some place, specifically Westeros. You're dealing in Universal Archetypes.

[Mithras]

Take the flood of Noah. You can find a handful of different accounts dating from different times and developing in different cultures with great or small differences. That does not mean that there were mutiple floods and multiple Noahs under different names.

[BearQueen87]

Take the flood of Noah. You can find a handful of different accounts dating from different times and developing in different cultures with great or small differences. That does not mean that there were mutiple floods and multiple Noahs under different names.

You're right, there are probably not many Noah's (or...a Noah...) running around. But it does speak the to universal idea of a great cataclysm and a hero that arose to save the day, as it were. But those cultures don't need to be linked for those various myths to spring up. Again, you're dealing in universal stories with archetypes that go across the world.

[Associate Maester]

While the story of the a savior figure is found in many cultures as we learn; I find it interesting that (unless I missed something on my first read-through) the idea of this savior figure being reborn/coming again is unique to Azor Ahai and R'hllorianism. Correct me if I'm wrong!

[Black Crow]

Any occurances of the number 13? We are told that The Last Hero had 13 companions. In the show we saw 13 others with the 'Night's King' who was the 13th Lord Commander? Any hints about that in this? Its led to thought we may be looking at 13 heros in the story.

By way of a minor correction the figure we're talking about had 12 companions; he was quite literally the last of the 13 heroes who set out on that quest. Notwithstanding the number 13 does seem very significant and I'd add the 13 years the Nights King is said to have reigned.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

By way of a minor correction the figure we're talking about had 12 companions; he was quite literally the last of the 13 heroes who set out on that quest. Notwithstanding the number 13 does seem very significant and I'd add the 13 years the Nights King is said to have reigned.

You know, I even looked it up and I still got it wrong. Me and numbers, not a good match. But yes, the whole 13 thing. Is that repeated? Is it just the northerners who have this 13 thing, like Andals have the 7 thing and Targs like their 3s?

[Lord Varys]

The book does not confirm that the Others were only in Westeros. The story of the Five Forts is very curious indeed. Supposedly they were raised after the Long Night to keep the Lion of Night out of Yi Ti. As I've said, they are monstrous huge, and of stone similar to the magical fused 'dragon stone'.

The Yi Tish story of Hyrkoon very much resembles Benerro's version of Dany as Azor Ahai.

The Targaryen prophecy speaks of a promised prince. Nobody ever said that this guy would be somebody 'come again'. That's all mythical Azor Ahai talk. And the fan boys of Azor Ahai clearly identify any savior figure from other cultures as their guy.