[TWoIaF spoilers] The Curious Tale of Hyrkoon the Hero

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Now, we know that Azor Ahai is known under many names in the Far East - my all time favorite is Eldric Shadowchaser - one of them, Hyrkoon the Hero.

<snip

More importantly, the book proves that the cataclysm was experienced everywhere in the known world, and makes it clear that many cultures - the Yi Ti, the Rhoynar etc. - had their own mythic explanations why light and warmth came back. Nothing suggests that our good friend Eldric ever fought the Lion of the Night in Westeros.

<snip

I think it was in the first ever SSM that GRRM said the Long Night affected the whole of Planetos. It's nice to get confirmation in print.

Eldric Shadowchaser? That's Essosi for Edric Stark, right? ;)

[butterbumps!]

butterbumps heatedly argued against any relationship between them when I proposed that the source of AA was in Westeros and when it came to the East, the legends were distorted and "tamed".

This reveal is slightly more different. It suggests that the Long Night was felt everywhere (though not with the same ferocity) and every culture produced a savior myth. But still, the sources of those myths in the East might come from Westeros because no timeframe was given.

butterbumps also rejected my opinion that the mission attributed to Dany by Benerro as the AAR was political BS based on his false interpretations.

It is clear that whatever the Last Hero did led to the victory. It is highly unlikely that there were Others in Essos.

In Westeros where the real action took place, the Andals coined the term dragon-steel for the weapon of the LH. I do not doubt that the Red Religion and its myths were founded in Essos but my claim is that all of their sources were at Westeros. They "tamed" the legends coming from the West about the Long Night and produced their own myths accordingly.

I don't think different heroes rose up in different cultures at the same time to deal with the shared Long Night. Myths do not work that way.

oh boy.

ok, so I didn't open the world book yet and don't know what this is in reference to, but what you and I argue about is an entirely different point than what you're representing here.

You repeatedly insist that AAR=one true hero, and that what AA/AAR has come to mean (i.e. the "Warrior of Fire") somehow doesn't matter.

I've repeated stated that whether all these heroes come from a literally singular source or otherwise, that what AA has come to mean and is attributed with matters. In the same way that despite the Christian messiah's derivation from the Hebrew messiah, Christ=/= the Hebrew Messiah, because Christ is imbued with different attributes. Which. matters.

I have no idea why you felt the need to debate against me in my absence (especially when you also misrepresent the disagreement), but please keep me out of this, especially in light of how I've literally not opened the world book yet.

And for the record, I've definitely not argued against the idea of Last Hero's legend going east and becoming "Azor Ahai," in light of how that's a position I've suggested myself.

[Mithras]

You're right, there are probably not many Noah's (or...a Noah...) running around. But it does speak the to universal idea of a great cataclysm and a hero that arose to save the day, as it were. But those cultures don't need to be linked for those various myths to spring up. Again, you're dealing in universal stories with archetypes that go across the world.

Long Night is a specific type of cataclysm and thus cannot be taken as universal. In real world, when we see such specific myths resembling each other, there is generally a connection between them.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

If I remember correctly it was a woman with a monkey's tail who brought the sun back right? At least according to YiTish.

Lion of the Night (male, darkness) and Maiden-Made-of Light (female, light); Yin and Yang? lol

I wonder who named Elric Shadowchaser. Isn't he eastern. It sounds like a western name, tbh.

And btw, @butterbumps, I guess you were right. The civilization was born in the Grasslands.

[Lord Varys]

And in Yi Ti.

[BearQueen87]

Long Night is a specific type of cataclysm and thus cannot be taken as universal. In real world, when we see such specific myths resembling each other, there is generally a connection between them.

No it's not. It's a very universal idea. Darkness and cold falls over the world and flees in the face of light and warmth. That's it. That's the Long Night. Remove all the magicalness and you get something that just "darkness and light, death and life, good and evil" (and of course those vary depending on where you stand)

And, I disagree with point two. Flood myths exist in Native American Culture and Ancient Mesopotamia. Time and spaces apart. You're dealing with Universal ideas.

[Kingmonkey]

Now, we know that Azor Ahai is known under many names in the Far East - my all time favorite is Eldric Shadowchaser - one of them, Hyrkoon the Hero.

Wait wut? Elric and Yyrkoon, did you say? Wielding StormLightbringer? So AA is another aspect of the Eternal Champion?

[butterbumps!]

butterbumps heatedly argued against any relationship between them when I proposed that the source of AA was in Westeros and when it came to the East, the legends were distorted and "tamed".

This reveal is slightly more different. It suggests that the Long Night was felt everywhere (though not with the same ferocity) and every culture produced a savior myth. But still, the sources of those myths in the East might come from Westeros because no timeframe was given.

butterbumps also rejected my opinion that the mission attributed to Dany by Benerro as the AAR was political BS based on his false interpretations.

It is clear that whatever the Last Hero did led to the victory. It is highly unlikely that there were Others in Essos.

In Westeros where the real action took place, the Andals coined the term dragon-steel for the weapon of the LH. I do not doubt that the Red Religion and its myths were founded in Essos but my claim is that all of their sources were at Westeros. They "tamed" the legends coming from the West about the Long Night and produced their own myths accordingly.

I don't think different heroes rose up in different cultures at the same time to deal with the shared Long Night. Myths do not work that way.

I've admittedly not gotten through everything yet, but where are you seeing that the World Book confirms that AA=one true hero, pertains to the Others-related Long Night of Westeros, has anything to do with an idea of a "one true hero specifically destined to defeat the Others we've seen beyond the Wall," or that "Azor Ahai" can be divorced from the R'hllorist religion's attributes any more than than the half dozen or so cultural heroes should be in terms of their respective cultures?

Of particular interest, the Yi Ti version seems to invoke a meaning of "darkness" that isn't literal, or at least, not indicative of what happens beyond the Wall in terms of darkness and winter. In Yi Ti, it refers to this one jerk Emperor's reign of terror, involving wide scale oppression and slavery (and apparently practiced sorcery). Like a "Dark Age."

Of further interest is in how all of these Long Night accounts talk about constant fighting, conquest, oppression and disunity. In all honesty, it rather looks like some appeals to "darkness" and "Long Nights" might apply to political "dark ages" whereby people banded together to overthrow some sort of oppressive power.

As another possibility-- if we want to read the darkness as more literal-- natural disaster, such as a meteor or major volcanic activity, would be the sort of thing that would actually throw the world into darkness for a time. In much the same way that everyone interpreted the meaning of the comet differently, it looks like the same exact thing might be going on in terms of various cultures imposing their own meaning onto the darkness (assuming all these account are taking a literal meaning) and devising their own idea of heroes to overcome it.

fwiw, the Others might not be the ones to bring the cold/ dark. If something's going off on the other side of the world (meteor strike/ volcano), interfering with climate and blocking light, the Others just might be seeing this as their time to shine for all we know. In other words, killing the Others might actually not be the "one true solution" to ending the Long Night. They might just be opportunists and not the root cause.

ETA:

The book does not confirm that the Others were only in Westeros. The story of the Five Forts is very curious indeed. Supposedly they were raised after the Long Night to keep the Lion of Night out of Yi Ti. As I've said, they are monstrous huge, and of stone similar to the magical fused 'dragon stone'.

The Yi Tish story of Hyrkoon very much resembles Benerro's version of Dany as Azor Ahai.

The Targaryen prophecy speaks of a promised prince. Nobody ever said that this guy would be somebody 'come again'. That's all mythical Azor Ahai talk. And the fan boys of Azor Ahai clearly identify any savior figure from other cultures as their guy.

I found the Watch-like fortifications quite interesting as well. I'm leaning toward thinking they might not be the same Others over in Westeros, though. I'm gathering that a lot of brands of magic seem to exist that cultures specialize in, so I was thinking it may be a different permutation of "Other" being kept back/ contained. Another form of "shadow" would be extremely interesting, especially adjacently to the claims that that jerk Emperor guy was ensorcelling and enslaving. I'm wondering if that speaks to the possibility of magical transformation and/ or will binding.

[Marcus Agrippa]

I need to buy this but from what I am gathering the AA thing still hasn't been given a date stamp and a reason it manifested the way it that. The different names thing could also be interesting. What if that means that they are several AA's? Or is AA still singular? Also now we know whatever created magic is what the problem is behind this. The others have been active since at least before Roberts rebellion (guess) because if I recall correctly the wildings started to organize around 285ish.

Another interesting thing and this is taken from butterbumps post above me- what if the dark night is analogous to discord? The long night is literally coming back while essos and westeros are falling apart hanks to the actions of a few jerks. Maybe Varys (willingly?) and Littlefinger (unwilling) are agents of chaos. Daenerys is also in the list (Essos- good intentions on the path to hell) which continues to point to her degrading mental state and probable amount of damage her and Tyrion can cause in the south. Well, this isn't it good.

It's ironic that makes Jon and Stannis both look even more heroic for letting the wildings through. Mainly Jon but if Stannis didn't come up... So very interesting.

[Lord Varys]

I think the Long Night was really magical cataclysm. It was not huge volcanic eruption or something like that because, well, GRRM has never detailed the what the Doom of Valyria did to the climate. Thus a meteor or something like that is very unlikely.

And I'm also leaning towards the Others - or the force(s) behind them - causing the cold rather than coming with it because, well, anything else would be boring.

By the way: There are ice dragons.

[BearQueen87]

I think the Long Night was really magical cataclysm. It was not huge volcanic eruption or something like that because, well, GRRM has never detailed the what the Doom of Valyria did to the climate. Thus a meteor or something like that is very unlikely.

And I'm also leaning towards the Others - or the force(s) behind them - causing the cold rather than coming with it because, well, anything else would be boring.

By the way: There are ice dragons.

WHOA WHOA WHOA. HOLD THE PHONE, MY FRIEND.

WHERE!??!?!

*ahem*

Sorry. Tell me all the things. (God I want I my book)

[butterbumps!]

I need to buy this but from what I am gathering the AA thing still hasn't been given a date stamp and a reason it manifested the way it that. The different names thing could also be interesting. What if that means that they are several AA's? Or is AA still singular? Also now we know whatever created magic is what the problem is behind this. The others have been active since at least before Roberts rebellion (guess) because if I recall correctly the wildings started to organize around 285ish.

Another interesting thing and this is taken from butterbumps post above me- what if the dark night is analogous to discord? The long night is literally coming back while essos and westeros are falling apart hanks to the actions of a few jerks. Maybe Varys (willingly?) and Littlefinger (unwilling) are agents of chaos. Daenerys is also in the list (Essos- good intentions on the path to hell) which continues to point to her degrading mental state and probable amount of damage her and Tyrion can cause in the south. Well, this isn't it good.

It's ironic that makes Jon and Stannis both look even more heroic for letting the wildings through. Mainly Jon but if Stannis didn't come up... So very interesting.

From what I've seen so far, there's various accounts of "long nights" across multiple cultures, though it's not clear yet whether these events were all simultaneously occurring.

My impression of this is that a bunch of kingdoms were suffering from major disunity, fighting and oppression (the political chaos is emphasized in the text). Then a natural disaster strikes (perhaps). More chaos. From the chaos, opportunists strike (be they Others, humans ensorcelling or otherwise using magic, or simple political schemers perhaps). The people rally against this, and a hero emerges slaying the evil empire.

AA seems to be a fairly specific cultural iteration of a hero figure. Rather than saying "multiple AA's," it might be more accurate to say "multiple cultural heroes" or something more broad like that.

I think the Long Night was really magical cataclysm. It was not huge volcanic eruption or something like that because, well, GRRM has never detailed the what the Doom of Valyria did to the climate. Thus a meteor or something like that is very unlikely.

And I'm also leaning towards the Others - or the force(s) behind them - causing the cold rather than coming with it because, well, anything else would be boring.

By the way: There are ice dragons.

I don't understand why Martin's not detailing out the climate effects of the Doom means that we're not looking at a "natural disaster" if we're taking these "long nights" as simultaneous in time and felt across the world. Don't "natural catastrophes" all have arguably magical bases in Martin's world anyway?

I'm not sure what you mean by "boring" for the Others to be opportunists who take advantage of cold rather than bringing it.

What do ice dragons have to to do with this?

[Lord Varys]

It is clear that many myths were spun to explain the cause and the end of the Long Night. Some of them involve a hero - the Yi Tish, for instance, other do not (the Rhoynish version). Those are all myths. The point is that Azor Ahai is just one such myth, a myth that may be as far away from the truth about the War for the Dawn as Christian metaphysics is from describing reality.

That does not mean that there are (somewhat correct) prophecies about the rise of some guy dealing with stuff. But interpreting this stuff with (religious) Azor Ahai glasses is not leading anyone to the truth, that much seems to be accurate.

The myths of the East were made in the East, they do not go back to the Westerosi story about the Last Hero. Old Nan does not sell any books in Yi Ti.

Ice dragons do exist in the White Waste (northern reaches of the Shivering Sea). They are bigger than Valyrian dragons and breathe cold, and supposedly melt when slain.

[BearQueen87]

Ice dragons do exist in the White Waste (northern reaches of the Shivering Sea). They are bigger than Valyrian dragons and breathe cold, and supposedly melt when slain.

:drool:

This made me delightfully happy, you have no idea. I don't even know why....but I've always wanted there to be ice dragons.

[RumHam]

Ice dragons do exist in the White Waste (northern reaches of the Shivering Sea). They are bigger than Valyrian dragons and breathe cold, and supposedly melt when slain.

It's possible that this is a just a nod to The Ice Dragon book no?

[Marcus Agrippa]

From what I've seen so far, there's various accounts of "long nights" across multiple cultures, though it's not clear yet whether these events were all simultaneously occurring.

My impression of this is that a bunch of kingdoms were suffering from major disunity, fighting and oppression (the political chaos is emphasized in the text). Then a natural disaster strikes (perhaps). More chaos. From the chaos, opportunists strike (be they Others, humans ensorcelling or otherwise using magic, or simple political schemers perhaps). The people rally against this, and a hero emerges slaying the evil empire.

AA seems to be a fairly specific cultural iteration of a hero figure. Rather than saying "multiple AA's," it might be more accurate to say "multiple cultural heroes" or something more broad like that.

Which is interesting. Did they give a timeline?

I was emphasizing the current situation but yes it seems that this story is setting a path. Did any of those AA's become king or a rank of importance?

Maybe that's where the sparrows will come into play? they will be force to rally around? interesting that all pieces seem to come together in TWOIAF for the readers.

I willl be fine with that. I wonder if there will be hero for each of the different cultures in Westeros? Did Essos suffer a long night?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I have an alternate theory to propose. Elric Shadowchaser, Hykroon, and Azor Ahai are among the 13 men who set out to find the CotF. Each civilization that had a man in the group claims it was their guy who survived and saved the world.

[butterbumps!]

Which is interesting. Did they give a timeline?

I was emphasizing the current situation but yes it seems that this story is setting a path. Did any of those AA's become king or a rank of importance?

Maybe that's where the sparrows will come into play? they will be force to rally around? interesting that all pieces seem to come together in TWOIAF for the readers.

I willl be fine with that. I wonder if there will be hero for each of the different cultures in Westeros? Did Essos suffer a long night?

No, not really a timeline. It's sort of ambiguous whether these are all supposed to have occurred at the same time. I'm genuinely unsure, and it could be argued both ways (that there were in fact multiple long nights or a single one that affected the world). Essosi cultures have accounts of "long nights," and what's common to them is an emphasis on political disunity.

In the Yi Ti legend, they believe that their Long Night was ushered in by the "blood betrayal" of a a jealous younger brother to his Empress sister (The "Bloodstone Emperor" kinslayed, killing his sister, the "Amethyst Empress"). "Reign of Terror" is the actual phrase used to describe his subsequent rule, and he's accused of practicing necromancy, slavery and cannibalism, to name a few.

This darkness went on for a while, until a hero rose to overcome him. This hero is said to be known as "AA, Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, Neferion and Edric Shadowchaser" according to various cultures. He led the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer, and light returned.

So, basically, the "bad guy" in this tale is a dictator who caused a great darkness, and some hero rallied the kingdom to defeat him.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I have an alternate theory to propose. Elric Shadowchaser, Hykroon, and Azor Ahai are among the 13 men who set out to find the CotF. Each civilization that had a man in the group claims it was their guy who survived and saved the world.

Yes, that's my take on it as well. The 13 were perhaps equally important, and each culture's legends turned their guy into the main guy and the other 12s companion into "sidekicks".

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I've admittedly not gotten through everything yet, but where are you seeing that the World Book confirms that AA=one true hero, pertains to the Others-related Long Night of Westeros, has anything to do with an idea of a "one true hero specifically destined to defeat the Others we've seen beyond the Wall," or that "Azor Ahai" can be divorced from the R'hllorist religion's attributes any more than than the half dozen or so cultural heroes should be in terms of their respective cultures?

Of particular interest, the Yi Ti version seems to invoke a meaning of "darkness" that isn't literal, or at least, not indicative of what happens beyond the Wall in terms of darkness and winter. In Yi Ti, it refers to this one jerk Emperor's reign of terror, involving wide scale oppression and slavery (and apparently practiced sorcery). Like a "Dark Age."

Of further interest is in how all of these Long Night accounts talk about constant fighting, conquest, oppression and disunity. In all honesty, it rather looks like some appeals to "darkness" and "Long Nights" might apply to political "dark ages" whereby people banded together to overthrow some sort of oppressive power.

After re-reading the Yi Ti legend, this makes sense. It seems the darkness there was more political rather than cataclysmic.