[TWOIAF SPOILERS] what was in Prince Nymor's letter to Aegon the Conqueror?

[Hrafntýr]

DARKSTAR AS RHAENYS DESCENDANT 2K14

I'm on board!

[Masha]

Maybe it was more civilized on part of Dorne. If Rhaenys survived her fall on - assume at least 100 feet drop if not higher, she would have been badly hurt. She still a valuable hostage, Dornish might have tried to heal her, without torturing part, but she might be paralyzed not able to move or even eat on her own, perhaps not even talk, probably disfigured and in constant pain from all those broken bones. (I'd be surprised that if less than 50% of her bones would not have been broken from such fall). Aegon (and Visenya) couldn't have been able to handle seeing their sisters as completely helpless invalid, after all, Valyrians valued perfection and beauty above all else, and they wouldn't have tolerated their court seeing their sister in such a way too.

And Prince Nymor might have simply offered to let her die.

Dornish didn't have to threaten to kill her, torture her, poison her, just let her live and bring her paralyzed and disfigured to Red Landing for all to see.

Alternative is that Rhaenys died in the fall, and Prince Nymor offered her honored burial/return of her remains to Aegon or let her bones rot.

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

Maybe it was more civilized on part of Dorne. If Rhaenys survived her fall on - assume at least 100 feet drop if not higher, she would have been badly hurt. She still a valuable hostage, Dornish might have tried to heal her, without torturing part, but she might be paralyzed not able to move or even eat on her own, perhaps not even talk, probably disfigured and in constant pain from all those broken bones. (I'd be surprised that if less than 50% of her bones would not have been broken from such fall). Aegon (and Visenya) couldn't have been able to handle seeing their sisters as completely helpless invalid, after all, Valyrians valued perfection and beauty above all else, and they wouldn't have tolerated their court seeing their sister in such a way too.

And Prince Nymor might have simply offered to let her die.

Dornish didn't have to threaten to kill her, torture her, poison her, just let her live and bring her paralyzed and disfigured to Red Landing for all to see.

Alternative is that Rhaenys died in the fall, and Prince Nymor offered her honored burial/return of her remains to Aegon or let her bones rot.

Best theories I've seen so far. I was always on board with Rhaenys but you just blew it out of the park! :bowdown:

[Red Tiger]

Maybe it was more civilized on part of Dorne. If Rhaenys survived her fall on - assume at least 100 feet drop if not higher, she would have been badly hurt. She still a valuable hostage, Dornish might have tried to heal her, without torturing part, but she might be paralyzed not able to move or even eat on her own, perhaps not even talk, probably disfigured and in constant pain from all those broken bones. (I'd be surprised that if less than 50% of her bones would not have been broken from such fall). Aegon (and Visenya) couldn't have been able to handle seeing their sisters as completely helpless invalid, after all, Valyrians valued perfection and beauty above all else, and they wouldn't have tolerated their court seeing their sister in such a way too.

And Prince Nymor might have simply offered to let her die.

Dornish didn't have to threaten to kill her, torture her, poison her, just let her live and bring her paralyzed and disfigured to Red Landing for all to see.

Alternative is that Rhaenys died in the fall, and Prince Nymor offered her honored burial/return of her remains to Aegon or let her bones rot.

http://s1336.photobucket.com/user/Lumpy67/media/GoT_joffrey_approves_zpsyhuus2zl.gif.html

[SeanF]

it's certainly preferable to her ending like Falyse Stokeworth "died screaming in the black cells of Hellholt."

But, maybe we're being too soft-hearted.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Guys, on Aegon cutting his hand - it seems unclear whether it's the letter or the Iron Throne that cuts his hand.

"Aegon read it upon the Iron Throne, and men say that when he rose, his hand was bleeding, so hard had he clenched it."

My initial reading is that the "it" was the letter. But on second thought - if he was reading the letter, he couldn't have been clenching it (or he wouldn't have been able to read it). Alternatively, he maybe read the letter, THEN clenched it so hard his hand bled. And then, having done this, he rose from the Iron Throne.

OR maybe: "Aegon read the letter upon the Iron Throne, and... when he rose, his hand was bleeding, so hard had he clenched [the Iron Throne]."

That seems like very plausible, him reading something horrible, and clenching his other hand, where it was resting on a blade protruding from the IT.

Maybe:

(1) the IT was making known its displeasure, at Aegon contemplating giving up the conquest of Dorne (because of what was in the letter)

(2) maybe the IT cut him because they should never have tried to go for Dorne at all (so, the opposite from the above)

(3) maybe the IT cut him as a "warning" that he was about to do something stupid (like deciding to burn Dorne to a crisp no matter what), but considering he continued to sit the Iron Throne, his eventual decision seems to be the right one?

This all falls away if it was, in the end, just a paper cut, not a throne-cut.

[Winterfell is Burning]

This mystery is like the briefcase in Pulp Fiction: a McGuffin that clearly isn't meant to be revealed.

Can I just say how much I love Prince Nymor's name. I mean who better to stand against would be conquerors than someone with the combined name of the two people who did actually united/conquer all of Dorne. Princess Meria maybe had the gift of foresight when she named him.

Clearly it's a reference to Namor. If Aegon had refused peace, the Dornishmen would have drowned them all.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Maybe it was more civilized on part of Dorne. If Rhaenys survived her fall on - assume at least 100 feet drop if not higher, she would have been badly hurt. She still a valuable hostage, Dornish might have tried to heal her, without torturing part, but she might be paralyzed not able to move or even eat on her own, perhaps not even talk, probably disfigured and in constant pain from all those broken bones. (I'd be surprised that if less than 50% of her bones would not have been broken from such fall). Aegon (and Visenya) couldn't have been able to handle seeing their sisters as completely helpless invalid, after all, Valyrians valued perfection and beauty above all else, and they wouldn't have tolerated their court seeing their sister in such a way too.

And Prince Nymor might have simply offered to let her die.

Dornish didn't have to threaten to kill her, torture her, poison her, just let her live and bring her paralyzed and disfigured to Red Landing for all to see.

Alternative is that Rhaenys died in the fall, and Prince Nymor offered her honored burial/return of her remains to Aegon or let her bones rot.

oh, honey...

[MizasterJ]

Guys, on Aegon cutting his hand - it seems unclear whether it's the letter or the Iron Throne that cuts his hand.

"Aegon read it upon the Iron Throne, and men say that when he rose, his hand was bleeding, so hard had he clenched it."

My initial reading is that the "it" was the letter. But on second thought - if he was reading the letter, he couldn't have been clenching it (or he wouldn't have been able to read it). Alternatively, he maybe read the letter, THEN clenched it so hard his hand bled. And then, having done this, he rose from the Iron Throne.

OR maybe: "Aegon read the letter upon the Iron Throne, and... when he rose, his hand was bleeding, so hard had he clenched [the Iron Throne]."

That seems like very plausible, him reading something horrible, and clenching his other hand, where it was resting on a blade protruding from the IT.

Maybe:

(1) the IT was making known its displeasure, at Aegon contemplating giving up the conquest of Dorne (because of what was in the letter)

(2) maybe the IT cut him because they should never have tried to go for Dorne at all (so, the opposite from the above)

(3) maybe the IT cut him as a "warning" that he was about to do something stupid (like deciding to burn Dorne to a crisp no matter what), but considering he continued to sit the Iron Throne, his eventual decision seems to be the right one?

This all falls away if it was, in the end, just a paper cut, not a throne-cut.

As an english major , I can see how this sentence would confuse people. Here's how it breaks down grammatically.

Its a compound sentence therefore it has two subjects and two thoughts separated by the word "and"

The 1st part is about Aegon. He read something described as "it". This sentence without the sentence before it, has no context;therefore it is open to any interpretation as to what exactly is "it" However we logically assume that the "it" is the letter due to the nature of the paragraph.

The 2nd half of the sentence is about Men,and what they say. They say that his hand bled and describe the way in which it bled (so hard he clenched it) meaning he clenched his hand;not anything else.

Its completely 100% unstated and unhinted at what exactly caused his hand to bleed. The author absolutely left it open to interpretation. Logically we would assume that the sharp , jagged iron throne caused his hand to bleed, BUT that is not written anywhere, so it is a purposeful open mystery.

Perhaps the Iron Throne would be too obvious a choice and if it was indeed the iron Throne that caused his hand to bleed then the passage would say so, but it doesn't which leads me to believe that something else was at play (magic?)

what was GRRM's intention? just to confuse us. He's such a troll sometimes.

[Red Tiger]

This mystery is like the briefcase in Pulp Fiction: a McGuffin that clearly isn't meant to be revealed.

Clearly it's a reference to Namor. If Aegon had refused peace, the Dornishmen would have drowned them all.

Those poor Wakandians

[MizasterJ]

"Aegon read it upon the Iron Throne, and men say that when he rose, his hand was bleeding, so hard had he clenched it."

Grammatically the sentence is supposed to be read as that his had was bleeding because he clenched it so hard.

Now is this is hard to believe because logically it is easier to cut your hand on the Iron Throne or paper but the exact way this is written based on the sentence structure is that Aegon clenched his hand so hard it caused it to burst a blood vessel and begin bleeding.

He didnt cut his hand on anything.

[CrypticWeirwood]

I cannot think of anything in the letter that could have made Aegon react as he did. No theory given in this thread holds water.

He become enraged upon reading the letter. He took off for Dragonstone on his own. (Or so it is said: how do we know he did this?) Upon returning, he immediately abandoned his campaign against Dorne.

It seems impossible that it didn’t have something to do with Rhaenys, but no scenario of her alive or dead seems to be one that could bring instant capitulation.

If the letter said that they had already done something horrible to Rhaenys, he would haved raised Sunspear and every other bit of Dorne he could find.

If the letter said that they would kill Rhaenys in return for peace, he would haved raised Sunspear and every other bit of Dorne he could find once they had done that.

If the letter was (apparently) from Rhaenys herself saying she’d found a new life there and asked him to leave them alone, he would not have believed it.

Ever with some sort of confirmation of this at Dragonstone, honestly, why would he have relented? No issue of his body, or hers, could ever play any dynastic role, since she was officially dead.

Visenya was said to have used sorcery, but what sorcery did Aegon himself possess as the ruling lord of the last surviving house of Valyrian sorceror princes? Something more than reading the flames of a burning obsidian candle? And if so, why would he have to do this at Dragonstone? Dragonstone itself was built using magic: was there some artifact of his House stored or effective there alone, or was there some other bit of magic Agon could do only from there?

If it was only scrying, why would that make him call everything off, no matter what he saw in the flames?

And why would he later visit Dorne on apparently cordial terms? Why if Rhaenys were alive there would he be content to leave her there, no matter what?

What are the maesters suppressing here, and why? That all Targaryen rulers were sorcerers? Was it all three of them, both queens and the king too, who knew arcane Valyrian secrets?

If Aenar brought sorcerous knowledge with him out of Valyria before the Conquest, as seems likely, and passed this lore down to his heirs, at what point was the transmission of occult knowledge broken?

Clearly Viserys and Dany knew nothing about it, but did Aerys II? Aegon V? If the rulers knew any sorcery, was there any break in the inheritance chain that would have lost that knowledge? Perhaps Aegon III was never informed of the mysteries because he was too young?

Yet Bloodraven clearly knows more sorcery than his natural gift of being a greenseer born could have brought. His tricks with glowing gemstones and glamours of disguise in the Mystery Knight seem like the same ones that Melisandre uses to fake Mance’s death by making Rattleshirt look like Mance. (And other strange things she does with glowing gemstones.) Surely these are old tricks out of Valyria or Qarth or Asshai, not something the Children ever seem to have done; not their style, although you never know.

But perhaps Shiera taught her brother Brynden these spells, and therefore knowledge of these glamours came to him through some other route than by virtue of secrets passed along to Aenar’s descendents. Still, Bloodraven was brought up by Aegon IV with all the Red Keep at his disposal and trained more as a prince than a peasant, and then later he became Master of Whisperers, so Bloodraven could have found something dusty and hidden known only to the rulers.

The Worldbook is a big propaganda piece from the Citadel, and the maesters are known to be playing the long game, working to suppress knowledge of magic. It is as notable in what it says as what it does not. Is this part of that?

What sorcery did Aegon the Conqueror have at his disposal, and how does this factor into the way he suddenly abandoned the Dornish campaign? How did Aegon and Visenya — and Rhaenys, too even? — use sorcery to secretly help them cement their Conquest?

[Rhaenys Targaryen III]

"Aegon read it upon the Iron Throne, and men say that when he rose, his hand was bleeding, so hard had he clenched it."

Grammatically the sentence is supposed to be read as that his had was bleeding because he clenched it so hard.

Now is this is hard to believe because logically it is easier to cut your hand on the Iron Throne or paper but the exact way this is written based on the sentence structure is that Aegon clenched his hand so hard it caused it to burst a blood vessel and begin bleeding.

He didnt cut his hand on anything.

If you clench your hand hard enough, your nails leave indents. Pretty sure GRRM means that Aegon was so angry that he clenched his hand hard enough that his nails broke skin.

[The Wolfswood]

Maybe it wasn't actually anything to do with Rhaenys at all and that is just a GRRM feint.

Just a random thought, but Aegon went straight to Dragonstone - still the families effective seat at the time as least as far as thick stone walls were concerned. The Aegon Fort was still pretty flimsy and the Red Keep hardly started (if at all). It was the sort of place they would have kept their family treasures.

Dragon eggs possibly? Had the tricky Martells managed to pinch/hide/destroy their precious resources of domination for the future and were ransoming them or making threats? They were always a clever bunch. Good with a plan. If so it would have taken a whole lot of cunning and plenty of time to organise. Did Aegon go to check and then back down?

Plausible?

Pure speculation, of course, but that is what this forum is for. Any other ides?

[glamourweaver]

I think the letter contained some secret that only Rhaenys knew, and they blackmailed him into peace. Even if he came in dragonfire blazing he couldn't have assured the secret wouldn't get out.

Possible example: Aenys wasn't Aegon's, and the true father is [x] (confirmed in a letter in Rhaenys own hand)

[scotcat]

While I do think that the contents of the letter detailed Rhaenys' fate, I don't believe it also contained a threat to Aegon/his line. Threats of violence and/or blackmail would have been counterproductive. Everybody seems to think Aegon's hand was bleeding due to him clenching his fist/the letter/cut on the iron throne in anger, maybe it was grief or relief. Any strong emotion can elicit that kind of physical response.

We know Rhaenys was the wife he loved, so the relief at finding out what truly happened to her - perhaps even that the Dornish offered her a merciful death due to the severe nature of her injuries in the fall (assuming she wasn't killed outright of course) - would have been hard to read, but also come as a relief.

At the end of the day, whatever was in that letter must have been either genuine information, or a real bargain, as I doubt threats would have got the job done at this point. It's hard to imagine him visiting dorne in a civil manner if his beloved wife had been tortured by these people.

[Fire Eater]

As for Rhaenys's bones never being returned, we must remember what happened to Rhaegar's corpse after the Battle of the Trident. He was given the traditional Targaryenh rights, Targaryens are cremated. Rhaenys could have been cremated as per her request on her deathbed.

Who knows maybe she asked her ashes to be returned to her old home, Dragonstone, that could be why Aegon went there?

[MizasterJ]

While I do think that the contents of the letter detailed Rhaenys' fate, I don't believe it also contained a threat to Aegon/his line. Threats of violence and/or blackmail would have been counterproductive. Everybody seems to think Aegon's hand was bleeding due to him clenching his fist/the letter/cut on the iron throne in anger, maybe it was grief or relief. Any strong emotion can elicit that kind of physical response.

We know Rhaenys was the wife he loved, so the relief at finding out what truly happened to her - perhaps even that the Dornish offered her a merciful death due to the severe nature of her injuries in the fall (assuming she wasn't killed outright of course) - would have been hard to read, but also come as a relief.

At the end of the day, whatever was in that letter must have been either genuine information, or a real bargain, as I doubt threats would have got the job done at this point. It's hard to imagine him visiting dorne in a civil manner if his beloved wife had been tortured by these people.

No, you said it yourself the letter elicited an extreme emotional response from Aegon: anger or regret. A bargain would not elicit such anger. Relief does not elicit anger. It was either a threat, and 1 hell of a good one or extreme regret, But I dont see how regret would lead him to make an alliance with Dorne.

[SeanF]

No, you said it yourself the letter elicited an extreme emotional response from Aegon: anger or regret. A bargain would not elicit such anger. Relief does not elicit anger. It was either a threat, and 1 hell of a good one or extreme regret, But I dont see how regret would lead him to make an alliance with Dorne.

A threat would make perfect sense, were it not for Nymor sending his daughter and heir with the letter (with Meraxes's skull).

If the letter informed Aegon that they were cutting Rhaenys into pieces, then he'd surely have seized the Princess and do the same. Or Nymor would at least fear that he would.

[MizasterJ]

A threat would make perfect sense, were it not for Nymor sending his daughter and heir with the letter (with Meraxes's skull).

If the letter informed Aegon that they were cutting Rhaenys into pieces, then he'd surely have seized the Princess and do the same. Or Nymor would at least fear that he would.

Agreed. It's a tricky situation that George has outlined. It's going to take some careful explaining on his part to make this believable and fit into continuity.

My only explanation is that Dorne must have had the Targs in some incredible checkmate situation, that basically handicapped Aegon from doing anything but agreeing to a truce.