[TWOIAF Spoilers] Ranking the Targaryen Kings

[Red Tiger]

The Vale may have hated him, and told him to get lost when he wanted to continue rule Runestone even after his wife was dead, but while she was alive the Vale stood to gain a line of Dragonriders by putting up with Daemon. No way in hell would the Vale take kindly to being robbed of that chance.

The Vale already HAD a line of potential dragonriders. Keep in mind that Viserys I's wife was an Arryn and the daughter of a Vale lord and Targaryen princess.

[Denam_Pavel]

The Vale already HAD a line of potential dragonriders. Keep in mind that Viserys I's wife was an Arryn and the daughter of a Vale lord and Targaryen princess.

None of the dragons or their riders ended up residing in the Vale. And even if they did, you think they wouldn't want more? And Daemon wanted even his bastard children to have dragons, in this regard, he was a much more promising prospect.

[Red Tiger]

None of the dragons or their riders ended up residing in the Vale. And even if they did, you think they wouldn't want more? And Daemon wanted even his bastard children to have dragons, in this regard, he was a much more promising prospect.

Point is the crown had appeased the Vale enough.

[glamourweaver]

Where is Rhaenyra?

She and Aegon II can share their lowly slot.

[glamourweaver]

The Truly GOOD
- Jaehaerys I
- Daeron II
- Aegon V

The Truly AWFUL

- Maegor
- Aegon IV
- Aerys II

The GREAT and TERRIBLE (indisputably "great" [not to be confused with good] kings, whose moral status is up for debate)
- Aegon I
- Daeron I
- Baelor

The Quietly Competent
- Viscerys II
- Maekar
- Jaehaerys II

The Quietly Inept
- Aenys
- Aegon III
- Aerys I

The Shared Catastrophe
- Viscerys I
- Aegon II
- Rhaenyra

[Ramsay's Penguins]

The Truly GOOD

- Jaehaerys I

- Daeron II

- Aegon V

The Truly AWFUL

- Maegor

- Aegon IV

- Aerys II

The GREAT and TERRIBLE (indisputably "great" [not to be confused with good] kings, whose moral status is up for debate)

- Aegon I

- Daeron I

- Baelor

The Quietly Competent

- Viscerys II

- Maekar

- Jaehaerys II

The Quietly Inept

- Aenys

- Aegon III

- Aerys I

The Shared Catastrophe

- Viscerys I

- Aegon II

- Rhaenyra

Ranking is hard, but yeah this...

I do like how there enough numbers for an even number in each categories. Tis pleasing.

[SeanF]

The Truly GOOD

- Jaehaerys I

- Daeron II

- Aegon V

The Truly AWFUL

- Maegor

- Aegon IV

- Aerys II

The GREAT and TERRIBLE (indisputably "great" [not to be confused with good] kings, whose moral status is up for debate)

- Aegon I

- Daeron I

- Baelor

The Quietly Competent

- Viscerys II

- Maekar

- Jaehaerys II

The Quietly Inept

- Aenys

- Aegon III

- Aerys I

The Shared Catastrophe

- Viscerys I

- Aegon II

- Rhaenyra

Yandel's judgement on Aegon III seems unfair to me. I think he was okay, but just very prone to depression, as a result of his experiences.

Though she wasn't a King, I'd place Visenya among the Great and Terrible (not sure about Rhaenys),

[Chaircat Meow]

Aegon V seems like one of the big root causes of the fall of House Targaryen.

He laid out a manifesto for reform which alienated his nobles and then said he wanted to enforce it by transforming the realm into an absolute monarchy on the back of dragon power. Everyone who grew up under Aegon had reason to fear what the Targaryen dynasty might do. He failed to shore up the power of his House because all the marriages into the other great Houses fell through, and he was faced with a rebellion in one instance. To cap it all, he goes and blows himself the hell up. I think after him a lot of power brokers were gunning for the Targs.

[Red Tiger]

Aegon V seems like one of the big root causes of the fall of House Targaryen.

He laid out a manifesto for reform which alienated his nobles and then said he wanted to enforce it by transforming the realm into an absolute monarchy on the back of dragon power. Everyone who grew up under Aegon had reason to fear what the Targaryen dynasty might do. He failed to shore up the power of his House because all the marriages into the other great Houses fell through, and he was faced with a rebellion in one instance. To cap it all, he goes and blows himself the hell up. I think after him a lot of power brokers were gunning for the Targs.

I tend to agree with this. His reforms might have worked if he had the power of dragons at his side, plus the betrothals, but he decided to implement them regardless. He definitely deserves blame for most of his kid's marriages not going through (save for Daeron's, that was just impossible). He should have reminded them of their responsibilities to their House and that the only reason Egg was not married off, was because his chances of taking the throne were extremely slim.

[SeanF]

Delete

[SeanF]

Aegon V seems like one of the big root causes of the fall of House Targaryen.

He laid out a manifesto for reform which alienated his nobles and then said he wanted to enforce it by transforming the realm into an absolute monarchy on the back of dragon power. Everyone who grew up under Aegon had reason to fear what the Targaryen dynasty might do. He failed to shore up the power of his House

because all the marriages into the other great Houses fell through, and he was faced with a rebellion in one instance. To cap it all, he goes and blows himself the hell up. I think after him a lot of power brokers were gunning for the Targs.

We'd need to know what his planned reforms were, and how he intended to about them. Was he planning a bloodbath of the nobility, like Ivan the Terrible? Was he more like the enlightened absolutists of the 18th century (say Frederick the Great or Joseph II) aiming to reform or abolish feudalism, by strengthening the power of the State?

But, yes, I could imagine many frightened aristocrats after Duskendale thinking "like grandfather like grandson" and concluding that they wanted rid of this entire dynasty. I wouldn't be at all surprised, if once we get the whole story of Robert's Rebellion, one of the motives of Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn was to overthrow a dynasty that they feared threatened their entire way of life, as well as one king who'd become mad and cruel.

[SeanF]

Assuming that Daenerys sits the Iron Throne, I wonder where she'd finish in the rankings.

Neither quietly competent, nor quietly inept, I'm sure. But any of Good, Awful, Great and Terrible, seem possible.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

We'd need to know what his planned reforms were, and how he intended to about them. Was he planning a bloodbath of the nobility, like Ivan the Terrible? Was he more like the enlightened absolutists of the 18th century (say Frederick the Great or Joseph II) aiming to reform or abolish feudalism, by strengthening the power of the State?

But, yes, I could imagine many frightened aristocrats after Duskendale thinking "like grandfather like grandson" and concluding that they wanted rid of this entire dynasty. I wouldn't be at all surprised, if once we get the whole story of Robert's Rebellion, one of the motives of Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn was to overthrow a dynasty that they feared threatened their entire way of life, as well as one king who'd become mad and cruel.

I think we need to know more about Roberts Rebellion also.

Like we know the Mooton's supported the Targs because Myles Mooton was Rhaegars squire and the Rykkers becase the Targs gave them Duskendale after the Darklyns. But what of others houses? Was there rebel reachmen and crownlanders? Who supported the Graftons at Gulltowns besides the Corbrays? To what extent was Matthis Rowan involved?

It'd make gauging supporters of Aegon and Daenerys a lot simpler also.

The whole southron ambitions clouds things. Rickard may have had them, but did they manifest in RR? And is there more to Rhaegars plans for his father?

I understand the need to keep Rhaegar and Lyanna stuff hidden, but this book was the prefect time to tell us about RR, and well... It didn't happen that muhc.

TWot9PK had the Tullys and Baratheons supporting the Targs again, so I think while Aegon shook the foundation it was pretty solid during Jaehaerys reign right? And then Aerys happened.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think we need to know more about Roberts Rebellion also.

Like we know the Mooton's supported the Targs because Myles Mooton was Rhaegars squire and the Rykkers becase the Targs gave them Duskendale after the Darklyns. But what of others houses? Was there rebel reachmen and crownlanders? Who supported the Graftons at Gulltowns besides the Corbrays? To what extent was Matthis Rowan involved?

It'd make gauging supporters of Aegon and Daenerys a lot simpler also.

The whole southron ambitions clouds things. Rickard may have had them, but did they manifest in RR? And is there more to Rhaegars plans for his father?

I understand the need to keep Rhaegar and Lyanna stuff hidden, but this book was the prefect time to tell us about RR, and well... It didn't happen that muhc.

TWot9PK had the Tullys and Baratheons supporting the Targs again, so I think while Aegon shook the foundation it was pretty solid during Jaehaerys reign right? And then Aerys happened.

The peace with House Baratheon was made by wedding Rhaelle to Ormund, and during Jaehaerys' reign (first half), Ormund was even Hand. So that House Baratheon supported House Targaryen during the Ninepenny Kings is logical.

GRRM has said that, once Winds and aDoS are done, there will be little new to tell about Robert's Rebellion, and all that goes with it (I assume this means the Year of the False Spring). So that we definitly will get.

[Chaircat Meow]

We'd need to know what his planned reforms were, and how he intended to about them. Was he planning a bloodbath of the nobility, like Ivan the Terrible? Was he more like the enlightened absolutists of the 18th century (say Frederick the Great or Joseph II) aiming to reform or abolish feudalism, by strengthening the power of the State?

Not really. All we need to know is that he wanted the power to force his reluctant nobles to loosen their grip on their peasants.

But, yes, I could imagine many frightened aristocrats after Duskendale thinking "like grandfather like grandson" and concluding that they wanted rid of this entire dynasty. I wouldn't be at all surprised, if once we get the whole story of Robert's Rebellion, one of the motives of Rickard Stark, Hoster Tully, and Jon Arryn was to overthrow a dynasty that they feared threatened their entire way of life, as well as one king who'd become mad and cruel.

Yet Aegon would not come across similar to Aerys at all, and the charter movment is disconnected from reforms Aegon wanted. Aerys and Tywin were basically pro-noble. Funnily enough, Rhaegar would likely look a bit more like Aegon, given his obsession with prophecy/magic. Although we don't know if he was interested in social reform.

I do think that after Aegon many of the great Houses had started to distrust/lose faith in the Targs, possibly egged on by the Citadel, worried, as they were, about dragons and the probable near miss at Summerhall. Marriages into the royal family were still desired too. That would create an atmosphere where doing away with the annoying Targs altogether was thinkable and desirable.

[SeanF]

Not really. All we need to know is that he wanted the power to force his reluctant nobles to loosen their grip on their peasants.Yet Aegon would not come across similar to Aerys at all, and the charter movment is disconnected from reforms Aegon wanted. Aerys and Tywin were basically pro-noble. Funnily enough, Rhaegar would likely look a bit more like Aegon, given his obsession with prophecy/magic. Although we don't know if he was interested in social reform.I do think that after Aegon many of the great Houses had started to distrust/lose faith in the Targs, possibly egged on by the Citadel, worried, as they were, about dragons and the probable near miss at Summerhall. Marriages into the royal family were still desired too. That would create an atmosphere where doing away with the annoying Targs altogether was thinkable and desirable.

Perhaps, anti-Targaryen nobles wouldn't draw the distinction we do, between Aegon V and Aerys II. they might view them both as tyrants; the first by removing their gods' given privileges, the second by threatening their lives.

[Nictarion]

I'd still hope that GRRM writes the book he planned about the reign of Aegon IV from his own perspective, and that he results to be not as bad as it seems (or at least let him have some excuses for it). Admitedly, after AWOIAF, this seems much more difficult. An in any case, I'd always rank Aerys II and Maegor below him. We can only put the Blackfyre's rebellion blame on him to a limited extent (just as we do with Viserys II and the Dance of Dragons)

My list:

1. Jaehaerys I. I'd say he is the founder of the realm as we know it. If there had been a lesser king in his stead, the Targaryen dinasty wouldn't have lasted.

2. Aegon V. Probably better hearted and with better intentions than the Old King, but much less effective.

3. Maekar I. We don't know much about his reign, but he seems to have done well enough. And after the failure of his first two sons, it must be admited that allowing Egg to join Dunk is a brave decision.

4. Daeron I. Although he could have done more to prevent the Rebellion. Favoring Bloodraven over Bittersteel, exclude Fireball from the KG, or favoring Dorne over the other regions were big mistakes in retrospective.

5. Viserys II. For the short time he reigned, he seems to have done good enough.

6. Baelor I. He probably went too far in his religious zeal, but the commons loved him, so he must have done something good during his reign.

7. Aegon III. He seems to have done well enough.

8. Aegon I. He seems to have been a conqueror who left the ruling aspect to more capable hands, which is fine with me. But some of his actions are too harsh.

9. Jaehaerys II

10. Viserys I. He would be five spots higher if he hadn't failed so much in the matter of the succession. Bringing back Ser Otto to court was asking for problems. The appointments of a master of laws known for his adherence to Andal law and a LC who was her daughter's spurned lover weren't exactly shrewd decisions.

11. Aerys I.

12. Aenys I. Well, he tried. In more peaceful times it seems that he could have been a very good king.

13. Aegon II. He hardly ruled, and when he did he was cruel and thoughtless.

14. Aegon IV. He was an awful man, specially towards his siblings. But during his reign the realm was at peace, and the common people seems to have lived well enough.

15. Maegor I. He usurped the throne, killed two of his own nephews, forcefully married a niece, murdered wives, started a religious war, treasonously murdered tons of skilled workers that served him,... Also, the Mad King was only bad for the last years of his reign, but during the first fifteen years he was good enough. But...

16. Aerys II. He planned to murder the entire population of KL. At least, when Maegar had it all lost, he had the decency to commit suicide without involving the rest of the city.

#4 is describing Daeron ll, not the 1st.

Daeron l is missing from your list.

[Mithras]

1. Aegon I

2. Daeron II

3. Jaehaerys I

4. Jaehaerys II

5. Aegon V

6. Aerys I

7. Maekar I

8. Viserys II

9. Aegon III

10. Daeron I

11. Aenys I

12. Baelor I

13. Aegon II

14. Viserys I

15. Maegor I

16. Aerys II

17. Aegon IV

[Mithras]

About Baelor...

I used to think he was merely nuts, and while he was even crazier than I previously imagined, his walk of penance was the greatest thing I've read in the World Book so far. Gave me chills.

I was wondering, we usually think more stable and balanced kings are better than Baelors. But with the way people were pressing for him to continue the war against Dorne, and after the murder of Daeron I, almost everybody else would want more war. Perhaps Westeros needed someone as fanatical as Baelor to bring peace, and nothing less.

So while I think he wasn't excelent after he came back, he did more good than harm. I mean, enduring a child septon and the incovinience of trying to use doves instead of ravens must have sucked, but it's still better than having thousands of people die in the conquest

As for the best Targaryen kings... Jaeherys I and Daeron II, obviously. It's so sad that Viserys II didn't live longer, and Aegon IV didn't die sooner. Imagine if Daeron had come directly after Viserys, and Baelor Breakspear hadn't died. Three great monarchs in a row...

That is why I think it is mostly fabricated by the singers.

[Colonel Green]

That is why I think it is mostly fabricated by the singers.

There would be tons of historical accounts of Baelor's penance walk. It's not a fabrication.