Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Django

(TWoIaF Spoilers) Bloodraven

Recommended Posts

You're welcome. :)

Do send me a picture of the cake if you get the chance. :D

I will.

Hey, you can start A Game of Throne Sweet Delights business here. I promise I'll be a regular customer. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't know how I feel about the Brackens. They do some nasty stuff (Lothar betraying Agnes Blackwood, grooming Bethany Bracken just to get Aegon etc) but is that because everyone loves the Blackwoods?
Blackwood>Bracken in most circumstances.

But does anyone have any speculation as to who they may have married? Rhae and Daella both tried to seduce their bro Aeg, but to no avail. I doubt it was any major houses, since Aeg tried to marry his kids to major houses, so another marriage so soon would be pointless right?

Davos's ship is called Black Betha, yes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

<-- Puh-lease. I am his greatest fan. I even had a friend of mine make me a cake with his sigil on top for my birthday.

.... Holy crap, I just saw myself say that. There is something profoundly wrong with me. :D

The first one who legally changes his/her name to Brynden Rivers can claim the title of BR greatest fan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don't know how I feel about the Brackens. They do some nasty stuff (Lothar betraying Agnes Blackwood, grooming Bethany Bracken just to get Aegon etc) but is that because everyone loves the Blackwoods?

Blackwood>Bracken in most circumstances.

But does anyone have any speculation as to who they may have married? Rhae and Daella both tried to seduce their bro Aeg, but to no avail. I doubt it was any major houses, since Aeg tried to marry his kids to major houses, so another marriage so soon would be pointless right?

Davos's ship is called Black Betha, yes.

There was some speculation about Dunk marrying one of Egg's sisters. And Tarth has a connection with the Targaryens as well, so there are two possibilities already.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahh yes, the Tarth Conundrom.
Thanks!
Although I admit I find it a little strange that Dunk would marry a Targaryen even before joining the Kingsguard... he really isn't worthy. Although Jenny and mini Duncan subverted that, so who knows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ahh yes, the Tarth Conundrom.

Thanks!

Although I admit I find it a little strange that Dunk would marry a Targaryen even before joining the Kingsguard... he really isn't worthy

yet ;)

It will be quite some time before a hypothetical match between Dunk and a sister of Egg would happen. I imagine that by the time they meet Dunk will already be a knight of great renown. We also need to know how Pennytree got to be a royal fiefdom. The most likely explanation for that is that Dunk won these lands somehow. Add to that some great connections: He's connected to the Lannisters through Rohanne, he'll probably have a connection to the Starks and he's a friend of Ser Lyonel Baratheon. Who knows who else he'll meet along the way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find the murder of Aenys monsterous, but it was clean and painless. Brynden did for what he believed was for the realm(and I imagine his ass), I can see how allowing Aenys to speak would mean the end of Brynden and prepares the whole of Maekar's brood. as well as the most loyal of Daeron's men. He deserves the style rogue prince far more then Daemon and his monsterous behavior.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

except Bloodraven wasn't a prince. I don't find what BR did monstrous especially if it was for the good of the realm. However something is fishy wit this murder why? as Aenys had a brother and he had kids. So unless BR was covering from someone else it makes nosense.. However I could get behind this being some political maneuvering to explain why he's stepping down from the handship. Some political theatre and now he and Aemon are on the wall. Aemon who had the better claim and BR because his reputation might have done Aegon more harm than good. He was the evil white raven whom was whisphering secrets in the other kings ear. As Egg's already had an uphill battle he didn't need the grief.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

except Bloodraven wasn't a prince. I don't find what BR did monstrous especially if it was for the good of the realm. However something is fishy wit this murder why? as Aenys had a brother and he had kids. So unless BR was covering from someone else it makes nosense.. However I could get behind this being some political maneuvering to explain why he's stepping down from the handship. Some political theatre and now he and Aemon are on the wall. Aemon who had the better claim and BR because his reputation might have done Aegon more harm than good. He was the evil white raven whom was whisphering secrets in the other kings ear. As Egg's already had an uphill battle he didn't need the grief.

He was technically a prince being a legitimate son of a king. What makes it monstrous was how Aenys way of putting his name out their was pretty straight forward and honest. Brynden could have easily said fuck off and be done. But as i stated, it did save him and the lives of Daeron's loyal men if Aenys was vengeful. I think Brynden did what far from norm and quiet roguish, far more deserving of a rogue title then his dickbag ancestor Daemon who for all his evil should have been bore the title monstrous not rogue. Brynden killing was clean and quick, Daemon was into torture.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was actually surprised by that - mostly due to the fact that it runs contrary to the reasoning Bloodraven used to explain to Egg why he kept Daemon II alive. After all, Aenys wasn't the last Blackfyre - so executing him would only mean that someone else will take his place (which is what happened).

It should be noted, I suppose, that Aenys wasn't actually the "proper" Blackfyre claimant. Following the failure of the Third Blackfyre Rebellion, and the death of Haegon, Bittersteel crowned Haegon's son Daemon as Daemon III Blackfyre. Aenys was the fifth son (I think) of Daemon I, and Haegon's younger brother. So it looks like Aenys was actually a rival to Daemon III as well. That Aenys wasn't endorsed by Bittersteel and wasn't trying to claim the throne through force of arms might indicate that Bloodraven perceived him as a different sort of threat. Also it seems that Bloodraven's goals included sending a message to the Great Council regarding Blackfyre sympathies.

Also regarding Bittersteel and his capture, it should be noted that Bloodraven did want him put to death. In fact, it seems like Bloodraven wanted him killed outright rather than being arrested and tried. It was Aerys's decision to send Bittersteel to the wall, but presumably someone else (Maekar perhaps) made sure that Bittersteel lived and was arrested in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also regarding Bittersteel and his capture, it should be noted that Bloodraven did want him put to death. In fact, it seems like Bloodraven wanted him killed outright rather than being arrested and tried. It was Aerys's decision to send Bittersteel to the wall, but presumably someone else (Maekar perhaps) made sure that Bittersteel lived and was arrested in the first place.

... and given what Bittersteel did once his life was spared, I'd say Bloodraven's wish was a very reasonable one. I am trying really hard to give myself a pat on the back for recognizing Bloodraven's total awesomeness.

It also gives a different slant to his words that Aerys would be the one to decide what should be done with Daemon II. No matter what smallfolk said, Aerys made those decisions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm trying to decide wheter BR killed Aenys for the higher good, or if he killed him because he knew Egg would be more forgiving (sending him to the wall) than the Blackfyres (who would kill him)...


To be honest, he seems like a very pragmatic person, he wouldn't get himself involved in this mess if not for a good cause. I think there were other reasons for the murder. If he was just scared for his own skin, he could just disappear, since he is a sorcerer.



Or maybe I just like him and want to believe he is better than he is. I found I can forgive him for things I would hate other characters for.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Me too think that the "Bloodraven lured Aenys to Westeros to kill him" thing makes Bloodraven to lose a part of respect, but I think it can be that he had dreams and knew he has to go to the Wall and for this he has to do things like that.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assume Bloodraven subdued and captured Bittersteel during their famous second duel. That would be fitting. Just as Bloodraven did not kill Daemon II after his capture, he handed Bittersteel over to the king to decide his fate - although he counseled Aerys I to execute him.



The Aenys thing may turn out to be really bad because as far as we know Aenys Blackfyre never took up arms against the Targaryen dynasty. He was too young to fight in the First Rebellion, he took not part in the Second Rebellion, and we don't know yet whether he fought besides Haegon in the Third.



More importantly, he was not the Blackfyre Pretender Bittersteel had crowned, and thus he would have had little to no military support from the Golden Company and Bittersteel (they were backing Daemon III).



Killing him was not really necessary, nor did it help to get rid of the broader Blackfyre threat. Bloodraven may have intended this thing as a message to the Lords that the Blackfyres are done as political power - or he may have acted in fear because he knew that Aenys' superior skills as an orator, combined with the fact that many Lords hated Egg could actually put him into a position to win the Crown (or at least to prevent the Council from choosing Aegon V). I don't think we should believe that Aenys was completely stupid when he decided to present his claim to the Great Council.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

or he may have acted in fear because he knew that Aenys' superior skills as an orator, combined with the fact that many Lords hated Egg could actually put him into a position to win the Crown (or at least to prevent the Council from choosing Aegon V). I don't think we should believe that Aenys was completely stupid when he decided to present his claim to the Great Council.

That's what I believe, personally. That Bloodraven saw Aenys as a real threat to Egg being chosen. And that he knew/suspected that even if he refused the safe-conduct, one or more of the important lords would have still taken Aenys under their protection and arranged for an opportunity for him to speak to the Great Council. After all, at this point, Bloodraven only had his Raven's Teeth and the Gold Cloaks.

If one or more of the paramounts chose to oppose him by force of arms, he had neither the means nor the authority to bend them to his will. And, of course, a new civil war would have given Bittersteel and Daemon III a golden chance.

BTW, how cool is it that some of the Raven's Teeth chose to accompany Bloodraven to the Wall? I can't see Egg punishing them for following the Hand's orders during the interregnum, when the Hand was the highest legal authority in the realm, so they must have volonteered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or maybe I just like him and want to believe he is better than he is. I found I can forgive him for things I would hate other characters for.

Totally. After reading about the Aenys part, I thought he was just like Tywin (who despite all the new info we should feel some sympathy for, I just can't), but still one of my top Targaryens

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As others have suggested, I disagree that what Bloodraven did was for the good of the realm. If Aenys had been the last Targaryen pretender, he could have had a point. But as it was, there were more Blackfyre sons and brothers. He just killed one of many pretenders while hurting a lot the realm's prestige, honor, ability to negotiate future pacts and any possibility to end the Blackfyre situation in the future. It was a very bad deal.



He should have denied Aenys the safe passage and be over with it. What he did was despicable, and it really didn't benefit the realm. As I see it, it was just a personal vendetta.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Though I think that what Bloodraven forestalls through this act is the possibility that the Blackfyre pretenders will be recognized claimants to the throne, which was what would have happened had Aenys been allowed to make his case, even were his case rejected. But I agree that this same end would have been much more simply fulfilled by simply rejecting Aenys' initial written claim. There's no indication in the text that Bloodraven was pressured to allow Aenys to come to KL in person, which GRRM could easily have written in had he wanted to make BR's act seem a little more "heroic."


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×