Historic foreshadowing / history repeating itself

[Bironic]

I thought that the Andal camp mentioned in TWOIAF could relate to Forley Presters Camp in TWOW, on his way to Casterly Rock (somewhere between Riverrun and the Golden tooth). Although i do not know if the Presters are an Andal house, does someone know? The crescent Moon could perhaps mean it happens shortly after the last Jaime Chapter in ADWD because in this chapter a half moon is mentioned: ... as a half moon crept up the sky... so from the timing it could be more or less a the same time as the TWOW prologue.

Hm. Can you see through a dead weirwood I wonder?

I don't know. Seems unlikely... but we know there are other Weirwoods in the Riverlands in Harrenhal for example.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Hm. Can you see through a dead weirwood I wonder?

I dont think its dead yet. Its poisoned, its leaves are gone and its dying but we have one instance of Blackwoods marrying in front of it which makes no sense if the gods cant see.

Harrenhal doesnt help either. Jeynes party is going west of Riverrun

[Bironic]

i meant that when there are Weirwoods in Harrenhal, in Raventree Hall, on the Isle of Faces, then there are possibly more of them throughout the Riverlands.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

People keep saying these different regions will declare for Dany when there is no logical reason any of them would. She is bringing an army of dothraki savages, slaves who need feeding, dragons and winter is coming. The Reach are tied to the Lannisters but are likely to try their luck with Aegon. Aegon is sitting in Storms End. Dorne will likely have Arianne marry Aegon for an alliance. The Westerlands are going down, and will be headless chickens. The Riverlands are battered and want to avenge their wolf king. All the stuff in the Vale has been about them wanting to join the Northern cause which they can with Sansa around. The North is about to be beset by Winter and wont want to go south.

I thought the long section on Nymeria set up many parallels between her and Dany... before TWOIAF, the only non-Dornish characters I associated with Nymeria were Arya and Lyanna. But neither Stark girl were really Essosi Queens leading their people to refuge in Westeros, either.

Of course, the parallels are not exact. Nymeria was not into sacking slaver cities, and seemed restrained and pragmatic. But her travels from the Rhoyne, to Sothryos, then on to the Summer Isles and finally to Dorne meant that the Rhoynar she brought with her were culturally and ethnically different than the Old Dornish. Her people fundamentally changed Dornish culture, but they seemed to prosper.

My guess is that Dany's people will end up in the Riverlands, and will adapt to some aspects of Westerosi culture. The war has absolutely decimated the population of that region, and nature abhors a vacuum. I can easily see them settling there and in a few generations, a more distinct Riverlander culture arising.

On the other hand, the Free Folk will become more integrated into the North.

Gendry is getting Storm's End

'The Tide Turned again when Morden II named his base born half brother Ronard his castellan [he stole his brother's queen and crown]..His Usurper ruled for nigh unto thirty years as Ronard the Bastard'

Then there is Orys, the rumoured base born bastard and 'none dared suggest that he was unworthy of these honours'.

GRRM...paving that way for not only a bastard but a low born bastard?

I will be tickled pink if Gendry survives, let alone becomes Lord Baratheon. After Jon, he's my favorite male character in the books.

The problem is that he wasn't trained at arms, and I doubt he can read or write. I can definitely see him becoming the royal armorer, or the smith for one of the LPs (my vote is Winterfell for the Starks). And I want him to forge whatever Great Weapon is needed in the ASOIAF cycle.

I always felt like Egg was a good guy who was a somewhat good king, sad to see he was average at best.

He genuinely loved and related to the smallfolk. Not sure that his lords were thrilled by that, though. So it depends upon one's perspective.

[MoIaF]

I thought the long section on Nymeria set up many parallels between her and Dany... before TWOIAF, the only non-Dornish characters I associated with Nymeria were Arya and Lyanna. But neither Stark girl were really Essosi Queens leading their people to refuge in Westeros, either.

Of course, the parallels are not exact. Nymeria was not into sacking slaver cities, and seemed restrained and pragmatic. But her travels from the Rhoyne, to Sothryos, then on to the Summer Isles and finally to Dorne meant that the Rhoynar she brought with her were culturally and ethnically different than the Old Dornish. Her people fundamentally changed Dornish culture, but they seemed to prosper.

My guess is that Dany's people will end up in the Riverlands, and will adapt to some aspects of Westerosi culture. The war has absolutely decimated the population of that region, and nature abhors a vacuum. I can easily see them settling there and in a few generations, a more distinct Riverlander culture arising.

On the other hand, the Free Folk will become more integrated into the North.

I will be tickled pink if Gendry survives, let alone becomes Lord Baratheon. After Jon, he's my favorite male character in the books.

The problem is that he wasn't trained at arms, and I doubt he can read or write. I can definitely see him becoming the royal armorer, or the smith for one of the LPs (my vote is Winterfell for the Starks). And I want him to forge whatever Great Weapon is needed in the ASOIAF cycle.

He genuinely loved and related to the smallfolk. Not sure that his lords were thrilled by that, though. So it depends upon one's perspective.

GRRM himself has compared the two so is no wonder Nymeria's story has tones similar to those of Daenerys.

[Veltigar]

The first page of the Riverland section mentions this

songs peak to us,...,of the night in the White wood, where supposedly the children of the forest emerged from beneath a Hollow Hill to send hundred wolves against a andal camp, tearing hundreds of men apart beneath the light of a crescent moon,...

I think this is a foreshadowing of the Prologue chapter of TWOW, in which GRRM said that Jeyne Westerling appears. The Hollow Hill is linked to the BWB and hundred wolves could be Nymerias Pack.

What do you think of it?

Or perhaps Kyle Condon's northmen? These 600 men have disappeared and could come into play somehow. I doubt the actual wolfes would make a distinction between Lannisters and Jeyne Westerling without an actual warg to lead them.

[ARYa_Nym]

i meant that when there are Weirwoods in Harrenhal, in Raventree Hall, on the Isle of Faces, then there are possibly more of them throughout the Riverlands.

There's another option that's been proposed before.

Nymeria might not be in the Riverlands anymore.

he smell of blood was heavy in her nostrils… or was that her nightmare, lingering? She had dreamed of wolves again, of running through some

dark pine forest with a great pack at her hells, hard on the scent of prey.

Half-light filled the room, grey and gloomy. Shivering, she sat up in bed and ran a hand across her scalp. Stubble bristled against her palm. I need to shave before Izembaro sees. Mercy, I’m Mercy, and tonight I’ll be raped and murdered. Her true name was Mercedene, but Mercy was all anyone ever called her…

Except in dreams. She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what she’d dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran.

It's not just a weirwood but pines and a dark forest. The wolfswood fits that description.

The wolfswood is a large forest in the North named for the great many wolves one can hear howling in the night.^[1] It is made up of oak, evergreen and black brier,^[1] as well as sentinels, soldier pines, and hawthorn,^[2] beech, ash, chestnuts, ironwoods, and firs.^[3]Weirwoods are occasionally found isolated or in pairs.^[4] It contains abundant timber.^[5] Besides wolves, other animals living in the wolfswood include boar, deer, elk, badgers, rabbits, foxes, and bears.^[2]

Many wolves live there. There are pines and it's a forest with weirwoods in it.

Although she may not be there but there's known weirwoods in a forest in the North as opposed to the Riverlands. Also, this thread talks about history so we have Queen Nymeria gathering her people along the Rhoyne to go to Westeros and never coming back. Nymeria "queen" of her pack already gathered her wolves along the Trident. She just has to leave if she hasn't already. & the queen left to flee Valyrians. Nymeria went there because of Lannisters and men in the Riverlands have already hunted her. Lords as well as Roose Bolton and whichever prey she comes across although she was the one hunting them in truth.

ETA: Oh, and Liz Dany does have parallels but she also has major differences. Dorne for one. One integrated successfully and the other burned the bridges so to speak. Also, her entourage points to problems integrating successfully like Nymeria. She has Dothraki, Unsullied, and she might even have Ironborn. I don't know about Tyrion but he'd make it worse. The prophecy said that the cloth dragon was before a cheering crowd. I could see Aegon loved and accepted instead of her.

[chrisdaw]

Dany will be Maegor, hostile with the Faith, turned upon and abandoned by her allies. Tyrion will be Jaehaerys, he will come after Dany, reconciling the crown and the Faith, promising to ever defend them, particularly from Dany's return.

Drains, as if there's no ulterior motive in deciding to include him having built some drains.

[Boarsbane]

I kind of hope Dolorous Edd follows in his ancestors footsteps and rips a witch's head off with his bare hands, but I kind of doubt it will be the way Mel goes out

[cgf]

Jeyne of House Westerling:

"Tall and slender, Lady Jeyne had been wed to Lord Alyn Tarbeck, who died with the rebels at the Battle Beneath the Gods Eye. Having given him a posthumous son, her fecundity was proven"

...

[chrisdaw]

TPATQs account of Cole slitting Beesbury's throat was a parallel of Jaime doing Aerys. TWOIAF strengthens the Jaime=Cole thing by offering Mushroom's differing account that Cole threw Beesbury out a window, as Jaime did Bran.

Rhaenyra's chief supporters were her good-father Lord Velaryon, her cousin Lady Jeyne Arryn, and Lord Stark (though his help was slow in coming, as he kept every man to harvest what they could before Winter fell on the North).

Suggesting the North won't make it South for the Aegon/Dany dance, but I doubt they'll be harvesting.

The Tullys eventually joined Rhaenyra's cause, in defiance of the late Lord Tully's wishes.

Tullys changing sides, again, to that of the North.

In Dareon's strategy for taking Dorne I believe we have the blueprint for Jon's March South. Split into 3, Jon down the centre as Dareon, someone (Tormund? Sam? Asha?) on the right flank through the mountains, the split coming at the twins. And a third (possibly Manderly but I believe it will be Dany) by sea (with Manderly's ships?) on the east, likely taking Maidenpool and to the Trident.

[Fire Eater]

Mysaria, whose looks and reputation led the prostitutes of who knew her to call her Misery, the White Worm. Later she became Daemon's mistress of whisperers.

Tyanna of the Tower was also maegor's mistress of whisperers.

I think another woman could have a future as a mistress of whisperers, Arya.

The other king was curiouser still— a child who became known as Gaemon Palehair. The son of a whore, this four-year-old boy was claimed to be a bastard of Aegon II (which was not improbable, given the king’s bawdy ways in his youth). From his seat in the House of Kisses atop Visenya’s Hill, he gathered followers by the thousands and issued a series of edicts. His mother later was hanged, having confessed he was the son of a silver-haired oarsman from Lys, but Gaemon was spared and taken into the king’s household. In time he befriended Aegon III, becoming his constant companion and food taster for some years, before dying of poison that might have been intended for the king himself.

Tommen has pale blonde hair. He is also a son of a whore. He is a boy king too. Like Gaemon, he issued a series of edicts. Gaemon’s whore mother was hanged whereas Cersei will be strangled (very similar fates). Tommen will most probably be poisoned. Gaemon claimed to be the successor of an erratic monarch who was poisoned. Tommen is the successor of Joffrey.

Actually, I think Aegon III and Sansa are the main parallels here. Both saw the execution of a parent by treachery and after that both forgot what it meant to be happy. I think Sansa will be returned to KL and will be cleared of Joffrey’s murder. Then Cersei will wed her to Tommen after the death of Margaery. So, the unlikely companionship of Gaemon/Aemon III will reflect on Tommen/Sansa until Tommen is killed.

Ther Ser Perkin the Flea-Perkin Warbeck connection has some weight I think. I think Gaemon fits Aegon better given his mother, Serra, was a prostitute and from Lys.

You can draw a parallel between the Daeron and Robb. The Young Dragon and the Young Wolf, both incredibly charismatic military prodigies who were master on the battlefield, both cut down in their youth by treachery.

True, killing in a parley was also a violation of the rules regarding Westeros like breaking guest right.

Dany will be Maegor, hostile with the Faith, turned upon and abandoned by her allies. Tyrion will be Jaehaerys, he will come after Dany, reconciling the crown and the Faith, promising to ever defend them, particularly from Dany's return.

Drains, as if there's no ulterior motive in deciding to include him having built some drains.

The problem with that is Tyrion will likely be fighting alongside Dany if he means to be pardoned and get CR.

I think Jon is the more likely Jaehaerys parallel (two Targaryen kin before him who die with claims to the IT: Aegon and Viserys, a third child, in hiding at some point and brought an end to the wars).

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I think Jon is the more likely Jaehaerys parallel (two Targaryen kin before him who die with claims to the IT: Aegon and Viserys, a third child, in hiding at some point and brought an end to the wars).

So who's his Good Queen Alysanne? Val? Or (shudder) Sansa?

[chrisdaw]

Alys means noble, in Alysanne you have noble Anne. Anne Neville is of course Sansa's historic parallel. The rest of the parallels will probably play to both Val and Sansa. Alysanne is the only Targ Queen we are given eye colours for that are not purple, blue of course. Great friend of the watch. What really brings home the parallel is Alysanne's sway with her husband's rule. The only other place we hear of that is Tywin/Joanna, a dynamic set to repeat between Tyrion who is so like his father and craves the love of the young, beautiful and female, and Sansa the young, beautiful, female budding game player learning the arts of manipulation.

[ARYa_Nym]

Mysaria, whose looks and reputation led the prostitutes of who knew her to call her Misery, the White Worm. Later she became Daemon's mistress of whisperers.

Misery is one of Arya's aliases in TWoW. Does this foreshadow a future for her as mistress of whisperers?

Where?

It was Mercy/Mercedene.

Or was Misery said in an interview to be another alias for an upcoming chapter?

I thought that showed BR though. That was essentially his role and he was called the White Worm and Bran used that description when he saw him in the cave.

[Ser Creighton]

GRRM himself has compared the two so is no wonder Nymeria's story has tones similar to those of Daenerys.

Funny enough I just had a nice little chat with Ran about Nymeria. He gave me a good bit of insight that I thought I would pass along as it fits the subject. Though it was about Nymeria and Aerys II though it works fine as it is about the writing style.

"Aerys II is contemporary, though. Look at, I don't know, Benedict the Just as a comparison to Nymeria."

"Benedict, like Nymeria, are sort of national heroes in a distant past and the way they're talked about is going to be different than how Aerys II is talked about. Similarly, the stories of Theon Stark -- this tremendous warrior who basically kicked everyone's ass and then some -- could very well also be rather exaggerated. Yandel (and Gyldayn, and every other maester cited who did not live contemporaneously to the events they wrote about) can only go by their sources."

This also sort of helps to understand one of the aspects to consider when reading.

Gosh parallels between multiple characters, a cyclical nature to the history and how it repeats itself yet differently. Next thing you know someone will be noticing inverse parallels. Wish I had thought of this, or discussed it with some of my fav posters.

The justification this book is brining me is priceless. Though I must say you got to be careful when reading this book, it's a tricksy book.

[Mithras]

So who's his Good Queen Alysanne? Val? Or (shudder) Sansa?

Shireen Baratheon :cool4:

[Equilibrium]

Red Kraken, ambitious conquest and bad aftermath for Iron Islanders

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

i meant that when there are Weirwoods in Harrenhal, in Raventree Hall, on the Isle of Faces, then there are possibly more of them throughout the Riverlands.

But how many carved Weirwoods are wild? She can't get to the Isle because its in a lake. There are weirwoods but how many have eyes?

Alys means noble, in Alysanne you have noble Anne. Anne Neville is of course Sansa's historic parallel. The rest of the parallels will probably play to both Val and Sansa. Alysanne is the only Targ Queen we are given eye colours for that are not purple, blue of course. Great friend of the watch. What really brings home the parallel is Alysanne's sway with her husband's rule. The only other place we hear of that is Tywin/Joanna, a dynamic set to repeat between Tyrion who is so like his father and craves the love of the young, beautiful and female, and Sansa the young, beautiful, female budding game player learning the arts of manipulation.

Really? I get plenty of Isabel in her too. Her father marrying her to the Duke of Clarence to make her Queen and depose the Woodvilles. It never happens, her dad is killed. The duke was killed by drowning in a barrel of wine incidentally. Joffs poison was likely in his wine or Tyrion could go out exactly like that yet!

There's another option that's been proposed before.

Nymeria might not be in the Riverlands anymore.

he smell of blood was heavy in her nostrils… or was that her nightmare, lingering? She had dreamed of wolves again, of running through some

dark pine forest with a great pack at her hells, hard on the scent of prey.

Half-light filled the room, grey and gloomy. Shivering, she sat up in bed and ran a hand across her scalp. Stubble bristled against her palm. I need to shave before Izembaro sees. Mercy, I’m Mercy, and tonight I’ll be raped and murdered. Her true name was Mercedene, but Mercy was all anyone ever called her…

Except in dreams. She took a breath to quiet the howling in her heart, trying to remember more of what she’d dreamt, but most of it had gone already. There had been blood in it, though, and a full moon overhead, and a tree that watched her as she ran.

It's not just a weirwood but pines and a dark forest. The wolfswood fits that description.

Many wolves live there. There are pines and it's a forest with weirwoods in it.

Although she may not be there but there's known weirwoods in a forest in the North as opposed to the Riverlands. Also, this thread talks about history so we have Queen Nymeria gathering her people along the Rhoyne to go to Westeros and never coming back. Nymeria "queen" of her pack already gathered her wolves along the Trident. She just has to leave if she hasn't already. & the queen left to flee Valyrians. Nymeria went there because of Lannisters and men in the Riverlands have already hunted her. Lords as well as Roose Bolton and whichever prey she comes across although she was the one hunting them in truth.

ETA: Oh, and Liz Dany does have parallels but she also has major differences. Dorne for one. One integrated successfully and the other burned the bridges so to speak. Also, her entourage points to problems integrating successfully like Nymeria. She has Dothraki, Unsullied, and she might even have Ironborn. I don't know about Tyrion but he'd make it worse. The prophecy said that the cloth dragon was before a cheering crowd. I could see Aegon loved and accepted instead of her.

Its a big pack I don't see it going that far without a word. I still think they are somewhere in the Riverlands. I'm getting an increasing feeling that it will all go down around the Inn of the Kneeling Man. Dany saw herself in the Riverlands, the High Heart, the hollow hill, the brotherhood (maybe with Edric Dayne still about), the wolf army...Its where Ice submitted to Fire. Its a battle deferred. Also, its in the middle, it allows our Northern characters to come down after the fall of the wall and our southern characters to go up.

[ARYa_Nym]

Its a big pack I don't see it going that far without a word. I still think they are somewhere in the Riverlands. I'm getting an increasing feeling that it will all go down around the Inn of the Kneeling Man. Dany saw herself in the Riverlands, the High Heart, the hollow hill, the brotherhood (maybe with Edric Dayne still about), the wolf army...Its where Ice submitted to Fire. Its a battle deferred. Also, its in the middle, it allows our Northern characters to come down after the fall of the wall and our southern characters to go up.

She could still be in the Riverlands but the North fits the description better and given Queen Nymeria's story it makes sense that she would leave. Tyrion even compared the Rhoyne and the Trident once.

Bran could have wanted the pack North for some higher purpose. It's not like stuff is not going down there. That's where the Battle of Ice is going to be and where the Others would come from.

Mercy might be well into the next book so if people have noticed the pack moving we wouldn't know about it.

I see the BWB as minor and relating to the subplot.

As for Dany I think she will but that's not likely to happen anytime soon. It has to be in ADoS. She might not even get to Westeros in TWoW or if she does it will likely be by the end since she has her dothraki storyline.

Then once she gets there she still has the Second Dance and the Slayer of Lies stuff to fulfill.