[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I sort of lumped Merryweather along with the others because except Chelstead, we never really hear about any prominent nobles from that time - now, if there really was such a strong anti-Rhaegar faction and is to be revealed to play some important role in the outbreak of the Rebellion, we should have heard by now, but we haven't.

I believe there was a strong antiR faction, but that doesn't mean Aerys completely agreed on that. When Rhaegar returned, he gave him an army AND listened to him about calling Tywin back. Remember that during the Tourney of Lannisport, Aerys cheered for his son. It's after Tywin's comment that he started to believe them together on remove him. We know Aerys was crazy, but in his own paranoia it makes no sense to give the son you think wants you take you down an army and agree on an alliance with the men you also believe is against you. Those actions seem so opposite to each other that they doesn't fit.

[PrettyPig]

I wonder if crowning a betrothed/married woman (not betrothed or married to the crowner, that is) as QoLaB is the equivalent of throwing down the gauntlet to that family?

Are there other examples in-text of a man crowning a spoken-for lady that is not their spouse? (Ruling queens excepted, of course.)

[sj4iy]

Unless that secret prophecies read something like: ''If you, Rhaegar Targaryen, do not marry and impregnate Lyanna Stark while Aerys is still in power, the world will ENDDDDD!''. Then I stand corrected, he had no choice. But in all likelyhood this secret prophecy is as obtuse as the others and putting it in your head that you understand exactly what it means and that you have to take specific steps to fulfill it isn't very wise.

It's not about whether a secret prophecy said that...it's about whether Rhaegar interpreted it as such.

In the end, interpretation matters more than what something says. Just look at all of the wars people have caused because of what religious texts 'supposedly' say, but really don't.

[Alia of the knife]

LOL, yep, I checked that. The book appeals more to the Lannisters than the Baratheons.

Which is a pretty good sign, its the opposite as many of the Lannister men acknowledged Lyannas beauty, what was it Jaime said? Robert didn't do it for love, but for a c&^t and a pretty face."

(I personally think they were all beautiful in their own unique ways including Elia).

I believe there was a strong antiR faction, but that doesn't mean Aerys completely agreed on that. When Rhaegar returned, he gave him an army AND listened to him about calling Tywin back. Remember that during the Tourney of Lannisport, Aerys cheered for his son. It's after Tywin's comment that he started to believe them together on remove him. We know Aerys was crazy, but in his own paranoia it makes no sense to give the son you think wants you take you down an army and agree on an alliance with the men you also believe is against you. Those actions seem so opposite to each other that they doesn't fit.

I also agree with this. I think it is really a love/hate relationship that is completely frustrating and completely draining. I think Rhaegar was in denial for as long as he could be, but I kind of also think that when Brandon challenged Rhaegar, that was Aerys taking his sons side despite what might have transpired.

It goes back to the whole "I can mess with my family, but YOU can't."

My friends father is a cop, and he said that the most dangerous call you could get was a domestic dispute.

I wonder if crowning a betrothed/married woman (not betrothed or married to the crowner, that is) as QoLaB is the equivalent of throwing down the gauntlet to that family?

Are there other examples in-text of a man crowning a spoken-for lady that is not their spouse? (Ruling queens excepted, of course.)

Historically speaking, betrothals could really only be broken by the man, and on the grounds that there was infidelity, and the potential wife "impure."

They even went so far as to "present" the bedding sheets to the guests the next morning to prove the bride was a virgin. Lets just say that many the time was a vial of chickens blood employed.

[RumHam]

First, thanks for the quotes!

There is one thing that I find very peculiar. In the series proper, we know only that Merryweather and Chelstead were Hands and it didn't go well for them, but we never hear that they were anti-Rhaegar; all the whispers against Rhaegar are ascribed to Varys. In TWOAIF, however, it looks as if Varys sort of stood aside why the others did the whispering. Of course it could have been both, or Varys as the maaster of whisperers eventually got the flak for something he didn't do, but the discrepancy between the accounts is rather striking. Why would Barristan or Jaime emphasize Varys' role and not mention the other whisperers? And if the other whisperers didn't play any major part, why is Varys' role downplayed? Now, if our good Yandel panders so much to the Lannisters, could it be that he doesn't dare to speak against Varys, either?

It might just be because Varys still lives and holds his office while the others don't. Yendel may even be a little afraid of Varys.

[Lord Varys]

Varys is hired by Aerys a short time after Duskendale. And no one ever blamed Varys for the Aerys-Rhaegar rift. That was just as assumption based on the fact that Varys may have informed Aerys that the Harrenhal tourney smelled fishy.

By the way: Dany's dragon eggs belonged to her father once. After Aerys hired Varys it is stated Aerys grew obsessed with dragons for a time and tried to hatch ancient dragon eggs he had recovered from Dragonstone. So old that they had turned to stone - you get the clue.

That did not work, and those eggs are never heard of again. The Baratheons and Lannisters don't have any, and neither are any eggs on Dragonstone left. Varys took them, and Illyrio gave (some of) them to Aegon.

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah, that was me. I think Rhaegar was absolutely working something out with Dorne. I also think that the plan he worked out left things locked up enough that Rhae Rhae and Elia could enjoy something of an open marriage (mutual) until it was more politically convenient to dissolve it completely, while still giving Dorne a big hand in the realm. There wouldn't need to be any conflict because everyone would win.

On the other hand, I'm starting to believe that there was more going on with the Southron alliance than we know, and that Rhaegar was actually betrayed. Still working on this theory though! Lots of new info to work in. :)

The only thing with this is that GRRM actually confirmed that Dorne was angered over Elias treatment by Rhaegar, so if Rhaegar and Elia were in the works on something, they really needed a planning meeting with everyone involved and a comminications director.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The only thing with this is that GRRM actually confirmed that Dorne was angered over Elias treatment by Rhaegar, so if Rhaegar and Elia were in the works on something, they really needed a planning meeting with everyone involved and a comminications director.

Not at all. Elia needed to keep the information secret until the right time. She could not risk letting the information leak too soon. She had to let her family simmer for a while until the time was right (assuming Elia was in on the plot, as I suspect).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I also agree with this. I think it is really a love/hate relationship that is completely frustrating and completely draining. I think Rhaegar was in denial for as long as he could be, but I kind of also think that when Brandon challenged Rhaegar, that was Aerys taking his sons side despite what might have transpired.

It goes back to the whole "I can mess with my family, but YOU can't."

More proof that the Valyrians are actually Sicilian :D

Anyway, I think the book ignores another faction: Tywin. And we knwo the reason, Pycelle they probably didn't want to make Tywin look like an instigator.

I think Tywin's comment of Rhaegar being a better King spoke of nothing but his own benefit. He definitely wanted to be in Rhaegar's side as Rhaegar would need a Hand once Aerys dies and he's crowned. Of course, at this moment, there was no bad blood between R and his father, so he could have considered that comment out of place (and with reason). Remember that, despite his intentions of remove him, he didn't want him harm and even worried about him (his last comments to Jaime hint this).

And while Tywin was at least competent (Rhaegar did ask Aerys to call him), mostly of Aerys' council looked like selfish instigators who took advantage of Aery's state, as they were cashing on his lack of stability. Unlike Tywin, who seemed ok with being Rhaegar's Hand (knowing that Rhaegar would be in full control), they knew that King Rhaegar meant they would lose everything they gained.

Or maybe, Tywin also wanted Rhaegar gone so he could get Viserys' regency.

The thing is that once Tywin was gone, his only man was Pycelle and he's mentioned at being neutral (hah hah). I don't believe Pycelle had the wits to conspire and poison other men's minds in order to move Rhaegar, but he might have sent some useful information to Tywin, information he could have used to his favour. Elia's sickness, for instance. With Rhaegar as a son-in-law, any kind of regency was completely guaranteed.

But of course, none of this talks about what Aerys really wanted. If the books tries to portray Tywin in any positive light, then it's not surprising that it presents the court as a vipers' nest once Tywin was left, and Aerys being completely out of control, as if it wanted to implied that THEY NEEDED Tywin. As far as we know, maybe the council wanted Rhaegar gone because he was already in control, even if not publicly, maybe he reunited with Merryweather secretly.

Because, again, Aerys' actions completely differed from what it's believed of him: 1. He arrested Brandon when he asked for Rhaegar, 2. He named one of Rhaegar's known supporters Hand, 3. After R was missing for about a year, he gave him an army and 4. He agreed on calling Tywin after R asked him that.

That doesn't fit with the man who ordered a wetnurse to get killed after he believed she poisoned his breasts in order to kill his son.

[BearQueen87]

One more thing that strikes me as weird: Brandon's overreaction to the crowning. Yeah, scandalous, I get it - but to challenge the Crown Prince for it? Or what is meant by "confront"? Is it just me, or is this a bit too wild even for the wild wolf?

On the other hand, this ballistic reaction to " a slight upon his sister’s honor" pretty much mirrors Brandon's act at KL. I think we can now safely assume that he yelled for Rhaegar to come out and die not because he was scared witless by the supposed kidnapping and rape but because of the stain on Lyanna's honour and thus Stark honour in general.

I totally agree. It's nice to learn that he was quite angry at the crowning and his reasons why.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

If there was a plot to depose Aerys, Elia knew at least something about it. First, I can't see her leaving Dragonstone after Aegon's birth going to KL without a good reason. We now know that Dany's HOTU dream (or glimpse into the past) was Rhaegar, Elia, and baby Aegon on Dragonstone, and Rhaegar is talking to Elia about the prophecy. He leaves and ends up in the Riverlands. Once she's strong enough to travel, perhaps Elia goes to present the baby to Aerys and Rhaella.

On the other hand, I'm starting to believe that there was more going on with the Southron alliance than we know, and that Rhaegar was actually betrayed. Still working on this theory though! Lots of new info to work in. :)

I cannot wait to read it! I vaguely suspected Rhaegar and Lyanna were betrayed -- after all, someone told Brandon about the "kidnapping" -- but this is stew beef and veggies for our crackpots. :)

I wonder if crowning a betrothed/married woman (not betrothed or married to the crowner, that is) as QoLaB is the equivalent of throwing down the gauntlet to that family?

Are there other examples in-text of a man crowning a spoken-for lady that is not their spouse? (Ruling queens excepted, of course.)

Clearly, in Westeros, you can't crown a betrothed or married woman if you're already betrothed or married yourself. Can't think of another canon incident where a Tourney winner crowns someone other than a woman they're interested in.

That's actually very different from our world. Knights and nobles asked for favors from women they admired not just romantically, but also as their queen/liege lady. But in Westeros it seems to have absolute romantic significance. Otherwise, the crowd wouldn't have reacted like that.

The only thing with this is that GRRM actually confirmed that Dorne was angered over Elias treatment by Rhaegar, so if Rhaegar and Elia were in the works on something, they really needed a planning meeting with everyone involved and a comminications director.

/thread

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/series

[Alia of the knife]

I totally agree. It's nice to learn that he was quite angry at the crowning and his reasons why.

Brandon might have been a hypocrite, but this would have been the traditonal reaction of any male of that time.

Even today, we still see "honor" killings.

And Oberyn still reserved the right avenge Elia.

[Anath]

If there was a plot to depose Aerys, Elia knew at least something about it. First, I can't see her leaving Dragonstone after Aegon's birth going to KL without a good reason. We now know that Dany's HOTU dream (or glimpse into the past) was Rhaegar, Elia, and baby Aegon on Dragonstone, and Rhaegar is talking to Elia about the prophecy. He leaves and ends up in the Riverlands. Once she's strong enough to travel, perhaps Elia goes to present the baby to Aerys and Rhaella.

Not very likely. Aerys disliked her, didn't attend her weddding, disparaged her daughter, her and Rhaegar's decision to live at Dragonstone furthered the rumours that Rhaegar was plotting against Aerys, the people she brought at court were known as part of Rhaegar's circle. By the time she was strong enough (and Aegon's birth was harder than Rhaenys' which left her bedridden for six months), the war would have been raging already or at least, Brandon would have been arrested. Not the relatively calm atmosphere after Rhaenys' birth at all. She must have been madder than Aerys to go at court where he could use her and her children against Rhaegar and Dorne simultaneously.

I think she and her circle were part of Rhaegar's political plans but he didn't really consult them about his prophetic ones. Her uncle who was supposedly close to him wasn't among the closest friends accompanying him when he left.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think she and her circle were part of Rhaegar's political plans but he didn't really consult them about his prophetic ones. Her uncle who was supposedly close to him wasn't among the closest friends accompanying him when he left.

Rhaegar left with six men. He could have been included.

[BearQueen87]

Brandon might have been a hypocrite, but this would have been the traditonal reaction of any male of that time.

Even today, we still see "honor" killings.

And Oberyn still reserved the right avenge Elia.

Sure. But it wasn't over his sister's person per se, more STARK honor.

And Oberyn wasn't defending MARTELL so much as he was actually defending Elia her very self. (and her children)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

In the case of R+L=J- no, I don't. The text obviously skirts around the issue and purposely misleads the reader in order to keep from giving anything important away.

Until Martin writes out the entire scenario in ASOIAF, then I won't consider anything the world book has to say on the subject as 'canon'.

There's quite a few other things in which it's not canon, either- including the Others and Giants. And Martin could easily retcon anything in the World Book if he felt it necessary to his story.

I'm certainly not going to take the world book over anything Martin has said at this point.

Ah, ok.. I thought you were talking about the world book in general (I think I missed a few pages of the last thread somehow... that causes confusion) :)

Personally, I think everything in the World Book that happened in the lifetimes of those still alive (like the Rebellion) should be read with care. A source for a lot of the court-stuff is Pycelle, and he might not have been as honest with everything in there.

[Anath]

Rhaegar left with six men. He could have been included.

In TWOIAF, it states that when Rhaegar left for the Trident, " he took all but one of the Kingsguard who had remained at King's Landing: Ser Barristan the Bold, Ser Jonothor Darry, and Prince Lewyn of Dorne."

Besides, since Jaime and the story both remember Aerys to threaten Lewyn with Elia and the children and we know that Doran was angry over Elia's treatment, I'd say it was a pretty big lapse on Lewyn's part to sit around in Dorne, in the ToJ, and fail to inform Doran that no, Elia was in it and please, would Doran be so kind and really try to help her by helping Rhaegar.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

In TWOIAF, it states that when Rhaegar left for the Trident, " he took all but one of the Kingsguard who had remained at King's Landing: Ser Barristan the Bold, Ser Jonothor Darry, and Prince Lewyn of Dorne."

Besides, since Jaime and the story both remember Aerys to threaten Lewyn with Elia and the children and we know that Doran was angry over Elia's treatment, I'd say it was a pretty big lapse on Lewyn's part to sit around in Dorne, in the ToJ, and fail to inform Doran that no, Elia was in it and please, would Doran be so kind and really try to help her by helping Rhaegar.

Rhaegar could have taken six men with him, and four of them returned to KL. The book mentions "half a dozen" and six men are mentioned on being his supporters. I doubt is a coincidence.

[Anath]

Rhaegar could have taken six men with him, and four of them returned to KL. The book mentions "half a dozen" and six men are mentioned on being his supporters. I doubt is a coincidence.

I counted five. But I am quite puzzled by the entire court and Dragonstone thing anyway. The Dornishmen who had come to court with Princess Elia... yet Rhaegar and Elia didn't live at court, they lived at Dragonstone. Rhaegar's party consisted mainly by the young ones at court... again, why would everyone be at court while Rhaegar was at Dragonstone? And Arthur Dayne is mentioned specifically to live at King's Landing, so how could he leave Dragonstone with Rhaegar? But if he didn't, where was he when the Starks met their end?

However, where Lewyn is concerned, it doesn't make sense for him to leave with Rhaegar. He didn't come for Rhaegar, he came to guard Elia. Leaving her when she was still not recovered, on an island Aerys' supporter Lucerys Velaryon could attack and seize without problems, with Aerys going more suspicious - he wouldn't be quite the good uncle if he did.

[sj4iy]

Ah, ok.. I thought you were talking about the world book in general (I think I missed a few pages of the last thread somehow... that causes confusion) :)

Personally, I think everything in the World Book that happened in the lifetimes of those still alive (like the Rebellion) should be read with care. A source for a lot of the court-stuff is Pycelle, and he might not have been as honest with everything in there.

I doubt the really obscure historical stuff will ever be touched upon in Martin's novels or novellas, so they are probably safe. But anything relating to present day in the text is very unreliable and it probably would have done well not to even touch upon it, since much of it will change by the end of the series.