[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I counted five.

You're forgetting Whent.

But I am quite puzzled by the entire court and Dragonstone thing anyway. The Dornishmen who had come to court with Princess Elia... yet Rhaegar and Elia didn't live at court, they lived at Dragonstone. Rhaegar's party consisted mainly by the young ones at court... again, why would everyone be at court while Rhaegar was at Dragonstone? And Arthur Dayne is mentioned specifically to live at King's Landing, so how could he leave Dragonstone with Rhaegar? But if he didn't, where was he when the Starks met their end?

They were his eyes and ears in court, I assume.

Also, I suppose the Crown Prince can use the KG when he needs. He could have parted with Arthur, Whent and Lewyn, and then Lewyn returned with the other three.

Or... Lewyn wasn't with him but Darry. Darry (place not the KG) is close to HH and Rhaegar is said to have been "not ten miles from Harrenhall". He used the Whents's place before, why not use Darrys's.

Now, I don't believe Darry went with them, but Lewyn, although they went to Darry.

[Anath]

You're forgetting Whent.

They were his eyes and ears in court, I assume.

Also, I suppose the Crown Prince can use the KG when he needs. He could have parted with Arthur, Whent and Lewyn, and then Lewyn returned with the other three.

Normally, he would. With the way things between him and Aerys were, not so much. Aerys was suspicious of everything Rhaegar did. I can't see him giving him his own KGs without explanation and I can see it even less if Rhaegar did explain that he needed them to take a girl. Yes, the very same one Aerys thought was Rhaegar's means to overthrow him.

Why do you think it was Lewyn accompanying him and not Darry?

The problem with the eyes and ears in court is that everyone knew they were Rhaegar's people and so, his eyes and ears. Why would the Lord of Paranoia, King of Suspicion, Protector of His Very Own Person let them stay and do their thing?

Thanks, I did forget Whent. Or didn't count him. Maths is hard!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I just realised that Rhaegar left with six men. With him, it was 7. The same number of Arianne and her friends involved in the Queenmaking plan. Both plans ended up bad. I think Westeros hasn't yet realised that the 7 is a bad luck number for them :lol:

[BearQueen87]

I just realised that Rhaegar left with six men. With him, it was 7. The same number of Arianne and her friends involved in the Queenmaking plan. Both plans ended up bad. I think Westeros hasn't yet realised that the 7 is a bad luck number for them :lol:

It's also the same number that go to the TOJ.....

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's also the same number that go to the TOJ.....

See? Bad luck!

If you gather seven people, at least someone dies.

[PrettyPig]

FWIW, Rhaegar definitely held residence in KL - when Tywin is discussing the murder of the children, he mentions Rhaenys hiding under her father's bed, "as if that would protect her".

So Rhaegar had quarters there. Interesting that it's referred to as her father's bed, and not her parents' bed....especially by Tywin.

[Anath]

I just realised that Rhaegar left with six men. With him, it was 7. The same number of Arianne and her friends involved in the Queenmaking plan. Both plans ended up bad. I think Westeros hasn't yet realised that the 7 is a bad luck number for them :lol:

Do dragons count? Because if they did, you have three heads of the dragons, three very real dragons, and Orys Baratheon...

... and the rest is history. As they say, the world did go in blood and fire.

[RumHam]

FWIW, Rhaegar definitely held residence in KL - when Tywin is discussing the murder of the children, he mentions Rhaenys hiding under her father's bed, "as if that would protect her".

So Rhaegar had quarters there. Interesting that it's referred to as her father's bed, and not her parents' bed....especially by Tywin.

He probably grew up in the Red Keep and presumably had the same quarters the whole time, or at least for while before getting married. That would explain it being described as his bed.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Do dragons count? Because if they did, you have three heads of the dragons, three very real dragons, and Orys Baratheon...

... and the rest is history. As they say, the world did go in blood and fire.

Well, apparently, Rhaenys died badly. So, yes. Dragon counts.

Ned and Cat had five children. With the two of them, seven... no wonder...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

FWIW, Rhaegar definitely held residence in KL - when Tywin is discussing the murder of the children, he mentions Rhaenys hiding under her father's bed, "as if that would protect her".

So Rhaegar had quarters there. Interesting that it's referred to as her father's bed, and not her parents' bed....especially by Tywin.

He probably assisted to some meetings and stayed few days.

[Anath]

Well, apparently, Rhaenys died badly. So, yes. Dragon counts.

Ned and Cat had five children. With the two of them, seven... no wonder...

... and Cat spoiled everything. If only she had played mother to Jon, they would have been eight. No bad luck!

Now, Arianne doubts everyone in her group. Aegon and Visenya's relationship soured. Orys lost a hand. Strong parallels!

... will those Westerosi ever learn to count to seven? We can have maths classes together! I reserve Maester Pyllos for the purpose.

[BearQueen87]

FWIW, Rhaegar definitely held residence in KL - when Tywin is discussing the murder of the children, he mentions Rhaenys hiding under her father's bed, "as if that would protect her".

So Rhaegar had quarters there. Interesting that it's referred to as her father's bed, and not her parents' bed....especially by Tywin.

The Red Keep is huge. I assume it can house the whole royal family, the hand and his family, and the court. I assume Rhaegar and Elia had their own private "apartments" as it were.

[Anath]

He probably grew up in the Red Keep and presumably had the same quarters the whole time, or at least for while before getting married. That would explain it being described as his bed.

Quite likely. But since Elia never lived in the Red Keep before the Lyanna episode and she and Rhaegar only lived there after that, the fact that each of them held their own chambers might indicate that the things between them were nowhere near fond and friendly anymore.

They might have shared a bedroom at Dragonstone where their home was, though. But the fact that they might not have done so at KL might mean that there was a fallout.

[sj4iy]

Quite likely. But since Elia never lived in the Red Keep before the Lyanna episode and she and Rhaegar only lived there after that, the fact that each of them held their own chambers might indicate that the things between them were nowhere near fond and friendly anymore.

They might have shared a bedroom at Dragonstone where their home was, though. But the fact that they might not have done so at KL might mean that there was a fallout.

Elia lived in Dragonstone after the episode with Lyanna and gave birth to Aegon there. She was kept in KL as a hostage, essentially, after Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna.

[PrettyPig]

Quite likely. But since Elia never lived in the Red Keep before the Lyanna episode and she and Rhaegar only lived there after that, the fact that each of them held their own chambers might indicate that the things between them were nowhere near fond and friendly anymore.

They might have shared a bedroom at Dragonstone where their home was, though. But the fact that they might not have done so at KL might mean that there was a fallout.

That's what I was thinking too. Even Robert and Cersei were sharing a bed, IIRC. Rhaegar having separate chambers identifiable to a 3yo (and to Lannister thugs) says something about the state of their relationship.

[Alia of the knife]

Sure. But it wasn't over his sister's person per se, more STARK honor.

And Oberyn wasn't defending MARTELL so much as he was actually defending Elia her very self. (and her children)

But we don't know that her person wasn't apart of the equation.

She seemed loved by all her brothers if taking Reed in is anything to go by.

I always assumed that the reason Brandon didn't specifically call for Lyanna was because if he thought she was a prisoner, what was the point but to call for the person he thought responsible?- Rhaegar.

Even Ned didn't call for Lyanna that we know of.

I suspect that part of Brandons Achilles Heel as a leader was his wolfe's blood.

But then the RV was just as foolish.

[Anath]

Elia lived in Dragonstone after the episode with Lyanna and gave birth to Aegon there. She was kept in KL as a hostage, essentially, after Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna.

My point, exactly. Before, when it was thought that Rhaegar and Elia lived in the Red Keep, it was speculated what the fact that each had his own bed meant for their relationship. To me, this is now a moot question since the only period Elia and Rhaegar lived together in KL would be after he returned and she was already a hostage. That might tell us something about the state of their marriage after the Lyanna episode (by which I mean absconding with her) and not before. Meaning - Elia was not thrilled with the way Rhaegar went about his second set of plans. Or he was not so fond of her anymore and intended to do something about that the moment he could - when he returned. Or both.

[Marcus Agrippa]

You know this does set two things in motion- Robert didn't feel any animosty toward Rhaegar... until tht happened. We still don't Lord Rickard's reaction. I also wonder why Robert didn't joust..

[sj4iy]

You know this does set two things in motion- Robert didn't feel any animosty toward Rhaegar... until tht happened. We still don't Lord Rickard's reaction. I also wonder why Robert didn't joust..

Robert doesn't joust.

[IceFire125]

That's what I was thinking too. Even Robert and Cersei were sharing a bed, IIRC. Rhaegar having separate chambers identifiable to a 3yo (and to Lannister thugs) says something about the state of their relationship.

Just like Aegon I wed Visenya out of duty, seldom to be sleeping with her, and wed Rhaenys out of desire.