[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2

[ARYa_Nym]

Is any proof that Elia wasn't pretty, though? Arianne definitely is. Why wouldn't Elia have a delicate beauty? Also, Elia was a grown woman, and Lyanna had probably not yet completely grown on her looks.

I mean, the only descriptions we have of her come from Cersei and Jon, the most objective and less bitter people of the whole books, and Barristan who compared her with Ashara. But also, Jaime is handsome and when Cersei compares him with Rhaegar, he paled in comparison.

In the Reeds flashback story Elia was described as fair. Lyanna's looks weren't mentioned probably because Howland didn't look at her like that.

I don't find Lyanna's account to be off. The wild looking aligns with Kevan calling her a wild beauty. The boyish part would be true. She likely was boyish looking. Arya is still child like looking and is already 12 and Lyanna would have been 13 or 14 at the tourney so not much older.

ETA: Sansa comparably and I'm guessing Catelyn seemed to go through puberty earlier and develop faster. By ACoK she was already starting to look womanly. Arya is the same age now but still hasn't flowered and her body is boyish or prepubescent female and not manly or womanly. So basically at the time of the tourney Lyanna might have still looked like a little boy or girl.

Oh and in her latest chapter Arya seemed to think:

Spoiler

That she will grow breasts in a year or two so 13 or 14.

The one giving the account is biased towards the Lannisters but not necessarily Elia so that person could just prefer Elia's delicate features and Lyanna's boyishness could turn them off.

Oh, and this account adds more fuel to me for me not to believe when it's said Lyanna's personality is what attracted people or she had something. No one talks about her personality or seems to even care about it and no one says she has a certain something that caught the eye.

Anyways, I don't believe that Rhaegar secretly had Dorne or Elia's support.

[BearQueen87]

Anyways, I don't believe that Rhaegar secretly had Dorne or Elia's support.

In that Rhaegar new sought it or he never secured it?

[ARYa_Nym]

In that Rhaegar new sought it or he never secured it?

Well, I'm sure he wouldn't want people against him but he can't please everyone and he did piss several different factions off and one of them we know was Dorne. I don't believe Elia was there cosigning his actions.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well, I'm sure he wouldn't want people against him but he can't please everyone and he did piss several different factions off and one of them we know was Dorne. I don't believe Elia was there cosigning his actions.

Maybe she was, but that doesn't mean Doran would be ok. with it. I believe Elia and Lewyn were ok. with Rhaegar's decisions to remove Aerys, and they supported him. But him running away with another woman is a different matter. Even if Elia agreed, it's still insulting to the Martells in the same way that Brandon thought an offence to the Starks that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna.

[BearQueen87]

Maybe she was, but that doesn't mean Doran would be ok. with it. I believe Elia and Lewyn were ok. with Rhaegar's decisions to remove Aerys, and they supported him. But him running away with another woman is a different matter. Even if Elia agreed, it's still insulting to the Martells in the same way that Brandon thought an offence to the Starks that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna.

And once Doran (and Oberyn) find out that Rhaegar has run off with Lyanna, they are enraged but by that point Elia is back in KL and I'm sure Aerys was keeping an eye on any communications Elia sent...so she can't send a raven to her brothers. (Maybe? That idea just sorta came to me)

[ARYa_Nym]

Maybe she was, but that doesn't mean Doran would be ok. with it. I believe Elia and Lewyn were ok. with Rhaegar's decisions to remove Aerys, and they supported him. But him running away with another woman is a different matter. Even if Elia agreed, it's still insulting to the Martells in the same way that Brandon thought an offence to the Starks that Rhaegar crowned Lyanna.

It could be that neither were ok with it. I'd need evidence first before I believe that she went along with it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

And once Doran (and Oberyn) find out that Rhaegar has run off with Lyanna, they are enraged but by that point Elia is back in KL and I'm sure Aerys was keeping an eye on any communications Elia sent...so she can't send a raven to her brothers. (Maybe? That idea just sorta came to me)

Could be. Remember that he kept Rhaella almost imprisoned.

It could be that neither were ok with it. I'd need evidence first before I believe that she went along with it.

Along with what?

1. Removing Aerys

2. Rhaegar's crazy ideas about the prophecy

3. Him running away with another woman for prophecy reasons?

Because considering that Lewyn is mentioned as one of his closest confidants in court, it looks like whatever Rhaegar planned to remove Aerys, he knew and was on board.

About 2, according to Dany's vision, she knew about the aforementioned prophecy. And either that scene happened before he was informed Elia couldn't have more children or he was a bit cruel and told her "I need another child, sucks to be you".

3, I don't believe that happened, specially if Lewyn was one of the six men who accompanied him to the Riverlands, it's kinda mean to tell him "we're leaving so I can go and meet this woman I need to impregnate to save the world. Now, let's go".

[ARYa_Nym]

Could be. Remember that he kept Rhaella almost imprisoned.

Along with what?

1. Removing Aerys

2. Rhaegar's crazy ideas about the prophecy

3. Him running away with another woman for prophecy reasons?

Because considering that Lewyn is mentioned as one of his closest confidants in court, it looks like whatever Rhaegar planned to remove Aerys, he knew and was on board.

About 2, according to Dany's vision, she knew about the aforementioned prophecy. And either that scene happened before he was informed Elia couldn't have more children or he was a bit cruel and told her "I need another child, sucks to be you".

3, I don't believe that happened, specially if Lewyn was one of the six men who accompanied him to the Riverlands, it's kinda mean to tell him "we're leaving so I can go and meet this woman I need to impregnate to save the world. Now, let's go".

I don't believe Dany's vision confirms she knew because the there must be one more line could be read that he's commenting to himself and is not actually talking to Elia.

ETA: Dany says he seems to look directly at her. This could read as him pondering to himself and the Aegon is the prince that was promised is the line directed at Elia.

The fifth room, finally, shows a man very much alike her brother Viserys, except that he is taller and has eyes of dark indigo rather than lilac. He is speaking to a woman who is nursing a newborn babe, telling her that the child's name should be Aegon and saying that "What better name for a king?". The woman asks him if he will make a song for the child, and he replies that he has a song and that "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.". He appears to look at Dany then, as if seeing her, and then he adds that "There must be one more," and "The dragon has three heads.".

[BearQueen87]

I don't believe Dany's vision confirms she knew because the there must be one more line could be read that he's commenting to himself and is not actually talking to Elia.

ETA: Dany says he seems to look directly at her. This could read as him pondering to himself and the Aegon is the prince that was promised is the line directed at Elia.

FWIW, when Rhaegar turns to look at Dany, I don't think that's the historical Rhaegar anymore. I think that's "magic" --as in the universal force operating throughout all of Westeros--breaking the fourth wall and trying to tell Dany (and the readers) something. I think Rhaegar did want there to be three heads of the dragon, but at that moment it's not the historical Rhaegar talking to Dany.

The quote in text of Clash says that Dany isn't sure if "Rhaegar" is looking at her or beyond her.

[ARYa_Nym]

FWIW, when Rhaegar turns to look at Dany, I don't think that's the historical Rhaegar anymore. I think that's "magic" --as in the universal force operating throughout all of Westeros--breaking the fourth wall and trying to tell Dany (and the readers) something. I think Rhaegar did want there to be three heads of the dragon, but at that moment it's not the historical Rhaegar talking to Dany.

The quote in text of Clash says that Dany isn't sure if "Rhaegar" is looking at her or beyond her.

I don't think Rhaegar is talking to Dany. He can't obviously. I'm saying he seems to not be looking in Elia's direction anymore. He could very well be mumbling the last part to himself and the conversation with her ended when he said the Aegon part and the last part is him talking to himself.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

ETA: Dany says he seems to look directly at her. This could read as him pondering to himself and the Aegon is the prince that was promised is the line directed at Elia.

FWIW, when Rhaegar turns to look at Dany, I don't think that's the historical Rhaegar anymore. I think that's "magic" --as in the universal force operating throughout all of Westeros--breaking the fourth wall and trying to tell Dany (and the readers) something. I think Rhaegar did want there to be three heads of the dragon, but at that moment it's not the historical Rhaegar talking to Dany.

The quote in text of Clash says that Dany isn't sure if "Rhaegar" is looking at her or beyond her.

Yep. That could be. In fact, the "magic" of the vision could have been having Rhaegar telling Dany "I have one more child", so she would look for him, but that didn't necessarily happened.

ETA: I mean, that this is often used to prove that Rhaegar WANTED another child and he looked to have him/her, but I personally doubted it. It's the magic of the prophecy telling Dany of past events.

[BearQueen87]

I don't think Rhaegar is talking to Dany. He can't obviously. I'm saying he seems to not be looking in Elia's direction anymore. He could very well be mumbling the last part to himself and the conversation with her ended when he said the Aegon part and the last part is him talking to himself.

Ah. But since Rhaegar is obviously talking to Elia prior to the turn away--however we interpret that moment--Elia isn't shocked by his pronouncement and TPTWP or ASOIAF. I think this is a conversation they've had before.

[ARYa_Nym]

Ah. But since Rhaegar is obviously talking to Elia prior to the turn away--however we interpret that moment--Elia isn't shocked by his pronouncement and TPTWP or ASOIAF. I think this is a conversation they've had before.

He is but it doesn't mean that she heard the last part where he said there must be one more and the dragon has three heads. I'm saying that could be something he was saying to himself under his breath especially since he was turned away from her.

[BearQueen87]

He is but it doesn't mean that she heard the last part where he said there must be one more and the dragon has three heads. I'm saying that could be something he was saying to himself under his breath especially since he was turned away from her.

I agree that it could be that he's turning away and saying it to himself--though I tend to think magic is working here. But that doesn't mean that the entire conversation--the prince, the song of ice and fire and the three headed dragon--hasn't been talked about before, say at the birth of Rhaenys.

[ARYa_Nym]

I agree that it could be that he's turning away and saying it to himself--though I tend to think magic is working here. But that doesn't mean that the entire conversation--the prince, the song of ice and fire and the three headed dragon--hasn't been talked about before, say at the birth of Rhaenys.

Well I said part about the prince which he at the time believed was Aegon he is still looking at her and thus we know for sure he is still talking to her. The entire scene specifically the last line is used to show that she knows his complete plans but I don't think it proves that because as we've already gone over he might not have been talking to her. So I'm saying we don't know for sure that she knew that he wanted another head of the dragon.

[Ygrain]

I totally agree. It's nice to learn that he was quite angry at the crowning and his reasons why.

One thing that occured to me only after I turned off the PC: who knew of Brandon's reaction? Was it public, right away after Lyanna was crowned? Did Rhaegar know? And who else? Because this ties in with the idea that Brandon could easily by instigated into something similar, on purpose, together with being given misleading information about Rhaegar's location.

FWIW, Rhaegar definitely held residence in KL - when Tywin is discussing the murder of the children, he mentions Rhaenys hiding under her father's bed, "as if that would protect her".

So Rhaegar had quarters there. Interesting that it's referred to as her father's bed, and not her parents' bed....especially by Tywin.

Ned and Cat had separate beds and they were a loving couple. It was a common arrangements of medieval nobility, to have separate bedrooms and the lord would come visiting. The last chateau I visited, the lord's bedroom was placed above the lady and she was prevented frlom making untimely visits because the staircase was too narrow for her to pass with those voluminous skirts :D

That's what I was thinking too. Even Robert and Cersei were sharing a bed, IIRC. Rhaegar having separate chambers identifiable to a 3yo (and to Lannister thugs) says something about the state of their relationship.

I think that the reference of them sharing a bed relates to the events when Robert was drunk enough to want to have sex with her.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think that the reference of them sharing a bed relates to the events when Robert was drunk enough to want to have sex with her.

I think in Feast Cersei says she still sleeps in the bed where Robert died. Either Robert went to die on her bed or she decided to move to his former chambers, which I doubt.

[Ygrain]

Or she moved his bed to her chambers?

I'd have to do a search later, but elsewhere I think she speaks about him being too drunk (or not too drunk?) to find a way to her bed.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Or she moved his bed to her chambers?

I'd have to do a search later, but elsewhere I think she speaks about him being too drunk (or not too drunk?) to find a way to her bed.

Found:

"Still, there had been nights deep within the black bowels of the Rock when she had welcomed their warmth beside her. An empty bed was a cold bed.

Here most of all. There were chills in this room, and her wretched royal husband had died beneath this canopy."

She's inside her bedroom, ready to sleep. Maybe it's a mistake, as she also remembers that Robert "visited" her.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I noticed two things explicitly:

1. What happened to Lyanna after the "abduction" is never explained, not even speculated on.

2. Richard Lonmouth is, yet again, not explicitly shown to have died.

And yes, the "Pace of Ice and Fire."

Not necessarily directly related to R+L=J, specifically, but the bits about Vermax leaving eggs and there being a dragon under Winterfell are so bluntly dismissed ("Nothing to see here!") that I think there's actually something to both. At least the eggs.