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[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2


Ygrain

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I need a complete re-read of anything related to Rhaegar, Lyanna, Jon, the KG and everything, tbh... too much info!

It is also interesting that Rhaegar had six companions when he abducted Lyanna. It is likely that one of them was Connington. When Barristan lists out Rhaegar's friends, they include Myles Mooten, Richard Lonmouth, Lord Connington, who was "dear to him," and Arthur Dayne. And Jaime says Connington was "the next best thing" to Rhaegar.

So what does Connington think of all this?

Note the use of the singular: "wedding." So Connington only remembers one wedding, the one between Elia and Rhaegar.

Further, Connington thinks a married man is not "free" to take a second wife.
So, if Connington was one of Rhaegar's six companions, then either (1) Rhaegar never married Lyanna, or (2) Connington was never told that they would wed and it happened some time after Rhaegar and Connington parted ways. The latter seems unlikely to me. If Rhaegar was going to marry Lyanna, he would have done it right away, and Connington would have known about it.

I think Connington honestly doesn't know. We have his judgemental thoughts in books, and I'm sure he would have had an opinion about it and he doesn't. And before someone says "denial", there is also the chance that he simply doesn't think about it as something that bad, as Jaime himself doesnt' give the matter much attention. But, considering the topic of marriage is discussed, he could have thought Aegon could have taken a second wife like his father did.

That's why I think that Rhaegar's group split. Connington and three more men returned to KL or wherever they were going after they did whatever they were meant to do, while Rhaegar remained with Arthur and Whent, and the three of them met Lyanna, which coincides with the app saying that the two KGs were involved in the "kidnapping".

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Viserys was not in any immediate danger. He was safe on Dragonstone with Willem Darry and the Targaryen fleet. It was another year before Viserys faced any threat.

Certainly, he was in less danger than Aegon II, who fled King's Landing with a nameless bastard knight while the two KG who were with him left him to go elsewhere.

Under these circumstances, it would be perfectly reasonable for the KGs to stay with Rhaegar's pregnant mistress, who had no other defenders, and to trust Willem Darry and the Targaryen fleet to protect Viserys -- at least until Lyanna could be moved.

In theory that sounds sort of reasonable--but go back to the actual conversation between Ned and KG. When Ned asks why they did not go to Viserys, they say that Darry is a good man but "not of the Kingsguard . . . the Kingsguard does not flee." Under your interpretation that statement makes no sense. How is it fleeing to send at least one of the KG to assist in guarding a potential heir to the throne--unless the king is in ToJ and needs all three. If Jon is not king in the minds of the KG, then the statement just makes no sense. Flee from what? It would only be fleeing if Jon is king. It is not fleeing for the Kingsguard to go be with the king.

And what do you mean Viserys was safe? The KG did not know whether Robert was about to send a force to try to kill him on Dragonstone. As to the Aegon II situation, I think the KG were simply torn by the obligation to obey the king who ordered them to do other duty rather than protect the king. But here there is no king giving orders for them to guard a bastard and mistress over going to the king. The KG don't make those kind of judgment calls.

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So has anyone changed their mind and thinks she was 'kidnapped' now?

I still think she loved him, but to make up her mind so fast to leave with him right then on the road.....idk

Also, who was with her, she must have had a guard, did they get killed by Rhaegar's men?

See, I don't think she had to make up her mind so fast. I still think R and L were in some sort of communication and had a plan. The might not have gone off flawlessly but I think there was a plan.

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I need a complete re-read of anything related to Rhaegar, Lyanna, Jon, the KG and everything, tbh... too much info!

I think Connington honestly doesn't know. We have his judgemental thoughts in books, and I'm sure he would have had an opinion about it and he doesn't. And before someone says "denial", there is also the chance that he simply doesn't think about it as something that bad, as Jaime himself doesnt' give the matter much attention. But, considering the topic of marriage is discussed, he could have thought Aegon could have taken a second wife like his father did.

That's why I think that Rhaegar's group split. Connington and three more men returned to KL or wherever they were going after they did whatever they were meant to do, while Rhaegar remained with Arthur and Whent, and the three of them met Lyanna, which coincides with the app saying that the two KGs were involved in the "kidnapping".

Rhaegar's group definitely split because Connington and Mooten fought at the Battle of the Bells, which happened before Ned married Cat. So it is possible that Connington was in the dark, but I doubt it. I think that if Rhaegar planned to get married, he would want some witnesses, and they would be his closest friends.

Here is a collection of information on the KG, if that helps with your re-read:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87683-the-text-of-the-kingsguard-vow/

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Regardless, it doesn't matter. What makes everyone think the Kingsguard are required to only guard king and heir? If Jon is trueborn, he is a member of the royal family and entitled to protection. See: Myrcella among others. He does not have to be the heir for the three KG to stay there. I assume he would have to be trueborn, but not the heir or the king.

The Royal family does not get KG protection automatically. Barristan says that it is up to the king to decide who gets KG protection, "even those of the Royal blood," and that KG protection can be extended to "lovers, mistresses and bastards." This leads me to conclude that (unless Lyanna was a hostage), she was given KG protection -- but that this does not tell us anything about whether she was a wife or a mistress.
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Rhaegar's group definitely split because Connington and Mooten fought at the Battle of the Bells, which happened before Ned married Cat. So it is possible that Connington was in the dark, but I doubt it. I think that if Rhaegar planned to get married, he would want some witnesses, and they would be his closest friends.

Here is a collection of information on the KG, if that helps with your re-read:

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/87683-the-text-of-the-kingsguard-vow/

R would need witnesses--absolutely. And he had them: Dayne and Whent, the same men who "took" Lyanna, both of whom were apart of his inner circle, good friends to him, and in Whent's case, the go-between for the tourney.

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Is Yandel really that biased to the Lannisters? Or is that only his source for the recent events (Pycelle)?

In any case, it shouldn't be forgotten that while the book might be for Robert, it wouldn't to well to offend the Queen and her family, by focussing the attention on the woman the King used to love. So apparently, leaving Lyanna out for as much as was possible seems to have been Yandels solution.

They would have been nuts to write anything positive or glowing about Lyanna.

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R would need witnesses--absolutely. And he had them: Dayne and Whent, the same men who "took" Lyanna, both of whom were apart of his inner circle, good friends to him, and in Whent's case, the go-between for the tourney.

Moreover, R was trying to keep the wedding a secret at that point. He needed witnesses, but the fewer the better. JonCon was not as close to R as J thought--so R would not have included J in the wedding plans.

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Not necessarily directly related to R+L=J, specifically, but the bits about Vermax leaving eggs and there being a dragon under Winterfell are so bluntly dismissed ("Nothing to see here!") that I think there's actually something to both. At least the eggs.

:laugh: I noticed quite a few instances of "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!!" during a cursory flip-through last night.....which I am now taking to mean "All of these things are totally going to make an appearance in the series if they haven't already."

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But with what we've heard of Aerys disdain for the Dornish and TV Oberyns statements about Rhaegar, and now Dany and Quintyn, it confirms my own suspicions that the Dornish are sick and tired of being thrown under the bus by anyone, and Doran has in mind long range plans of his own.

Other Misc.:

~ In light of current speculation on Connington, his verbage introducing Aegon as Rhaegars FIRST BORN son, is even more intriguing.

~ He wears a wolfskin cloak

Edit: I speculate that Connington may very well have tried to talk Rhaegar out of, jealousy nonwithstanding, and that is why they went their separate ways.

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I would add to this list the fact that, after Rhaegar died, Viserys came before Rhaegar's children in the succession. People can disagree about what this means but it is certainly relevant to the theory that the 3KG stayed at the TOJ because Rhaegar's son came before Viserys.

Has Ran commented on this little tid bit yet? I haven't been able to find anything. Unless I'm mistaken most people on this board were operating under the assumption that Aegon was ahead of Viserys immediately after Rhaegar's death.

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All right. I'm on my way off, so I'll be quick, and post while AHS is loading. (not joking. The book has taken some time out of me and my work... I blame you all!)



I think one of the problems we face as readers, and that affects mostly ALL OF US, is that when a characters says or does something we might not like, we label him/her as "unreliable" or "biased". In the case of JonCon, it's up to the reader to decided if he's in fact unreliable. To me, and I'm trying to put my love (and jokes I make about him) aside, I don't think he is. First, he's not a 12 years old Sansa misremembering a kiss. He's not that old to have mixed information in his head either. The whole idea that "we can't trust Jon because he loved Rhaegar" is a bit silly, imo. Any other man in love is then unreliable as well? Being in love completely takes away your objectivity? Because, Jon doesn't call himself "Rhaegar's one and only absolutely best friend". It's other people who call him "Rhaegar's friend": first, it's Jaime, who was close to the Prince. Barristan, who says he had his favour. There is Tyrion saying he was his best friend (although he never knew Rhaegar) and of course, GRRM himself calling him a close friend. Now, the book says he was one of his closest confidants. Also, Jon has a good opinion of Arthur Dayne. And number two, his opinions about Elia also put him under a bad light of "being so jealous and bitter", when tbh, I think his opinion isn't different from what others believe. In the paragraph he's discussing Elia, he's also talking about her ability to have children. Maybe, in his head, the fact that Rhaegar had to look for another woman is because is Elia's fault that he couldn't provide him with more heirs, which is something Kevan also believes. I don't believe this is about Jon being in love with Rhaegar but on the fact he's sexist (because he IS sexist: believing that Varys isn't a man because he has no penis or Aegon, who was raised by Jon, calling Cersei "a woman"). Considering the Rebellion also affected his life, I suppose is easier to blame it on the woman who couldn't provide his husband with an heir instead of such man (specially if such man was his friend) going with another girl. That doesn't mean he hated Elia and he resented her for have marrying Rhaegar (unless we're implying he secretly wished to have married him instead, come on). He mentioned her death as something he also blames himself for ("The bells tolled for all of us that day. For Aerys and his queen, for Elia of Dorne and her little daughter"). He would never want her dead so Rhaegar would choose him instead. That's more of a Cersei level of fucked up.



So, no. I don't believe Jon is an unreliable narrator, only that he has different opinions about things, as pretty much everybody else. Because then, why would be the purpose of his introductions in books if he isn't meant to provide information for both Jon Snow or readers? Personally, I think he's meant to be for Rhaegar what Howard Reed will be for Lyanna: They are going to tell JonS what kind of people his real parents were. Because HR never knew Rhaegar. How much he can know besides he loved Lyanna and probably married her? And I think that will be Jon's role at the end, to be the one who will introduce the real Rhaegar to JonS, and see Rhaegar in JonS. For instance, Rhaegar surrounded himself with capable people and called friends those who were proven worthy, despite their youth (and maybe origin). That's exactly what JonS is doing now in the Wall, and that's something I'm sure Jon will notice about him, considering he was one of those men Rhaegar chooses as friend and confidant.



Also, that defines what the involvements of both characters will mean for JonS. HR is related to "The Song of Ice and Fire" (as implied/suggested by his children), while Jon is playing "the game of thrones": We know Rhaegar was worrying about both of them, and if someone knew what he believed about prophecies and apocalypses, that's Arthur, and he's dead. Jon's involvement in the story is completely political, and I think he will want to help JonS to gain the throne (after Aegon dies). And if his involvement will be political, that mean that he was related to the political side of Rhaegar that wanted to remove his father, something he apparently supported. This is why I believe that Jon indeed had no idea about anything Rhaegar planned about Lyanna. If he indeed was planning to meet her and that was the motivation for him going to the Riverlands (which I personally doubt), the four men who later left the group and returned to KL/home, were probably unaware or were part of a ruse. Or, they were indeed there for some other reasons and once they left, he went for Lyanna. To me, all of those are possibilities, but the fact that Rhaegar took six men with the only purpose of meeting with Lyanna, that I don't believe. It doesn't sound very logical.

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Speaking of weddings and marriages....do we get anymore information on Valyrian wedding rituals?

Not that I could find. The only quote is the one you have already seen: "He had wed her in a Valyrian ceremony officiated by Queen Visenya for want of a septon willing to wed them." I found no other mention of how the ceremony was performed.

By the way Amazon got me my book yesterday--without me paying for express shipping (I just had regular "free shipping" and I don't have Amazon Prime) and after originally estimating delivery next week. So you should have your book soon.

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[snip]

1. I don't think JonCon is an unreliable narrator. I just don't think Rhaegar told him everything. And that might be a smart move on R's part. If you have a plan to "take down the king" then maybe you don't tell everyone everything. The general parts, yes, but the specifics you dole out in piecemeal. Just in case.

2. I do agree with you that we're going to get a pretty clear picture of not only Rhaegar but the events of all this hubbub from JonCon, in the same way we'll learn more about Lyanna from HR.

Not that I could find. The only quote is the one you have already seen: "He had wed her in a Valyrian ceremony officiated by Queen Visenya for want of a septon willing to wed them." I found no other mention of how the ceremony was performed.

By the way Amazon got me my book yesterday--without me paying for express shipping (I just had regular "free shipping" and I don't have Amazon Prime) and after originally estimating delivery next week. So you should have your book soon.

ARG! REALLY?! Ok, did you get an email from them first saying it had been shipped, cause I haven't even gotten that and *twitch*

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[snip]

I am not sure what you are getting at. Of course, JonCon is not a completely unreliable narrator. That does not mean he has all the relevant information. For example, he is unreliable on the question of whether fAegon is the son of Rhaegar--JonCon thinks he knows, but I think he is mistaken. But what I really cannot follow is your point about the 6 going to Riverlands. Ok, fine, so there was another purpose other than just getting Lyanna. Certainly as far as the 4 who did not continue, I agree they must have been told another reason. What was that purpose? How could it impact the story? Oh, and by the way, you really think JonCon will live long enough (grey scale) to support JonS?

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Hmm, perhaps a communication similar to the one between Brynden Rivers and Bran?

Honestly, at this point...I have no idea. Learning about Betha Blackwood sorta threw me for a loop. I don't know what it means, if it means anything for Rhaegar or anyone else. My thought was that they were going through intermediaries, like Benjen.

Yes.

I go back and forth. His arc seems to be fairly tragic and dying after learning that he supported a Blackfyre and not Rhaegar's true son? Ouch. He might learn about JonS but not live enough to support him.

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