[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2

[UnmaskedLurker]

1. I don't think JonCon is an unreliable narrator. I just don't think Rhaegar told him everything. And that might be a smart move on R's part. If you have a plan to "take down the king" then maybe you don't tell everyone everything. The general parts, yes, but the specifics you dole out in piecemeal. Just in case.

2. I do agree with you that we're going to get a pretty clear picture of not only Rhaegar but the events of all this hubbub from JonCon, in the same way we'll learn more about Lyanna from HR.

ARG! REALLY?! Ok, did you get an email from them first saying it had been shipped, cause I haven't even gotten that and *twitch*

I agree with your point 1 above. As to point 2, I am not sure how much more we will learn from JonCon because I am not sure how long he will live, but sounds plausible.

As to Amazon--I got the email Monday and it said Wednesday delivery and I got it Wednesday (last week, the website estimated delivery next week, but the Monday email correctly estimated Wednesday). You should log into your Amazon account and check on the status of the order. You should be able to click on a link that should tell you the estimated delivery date.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I am more and more convinced after reading this book that it was Aerys who abducted Lyanna, and Rhaegar rescued her and hid her away from him.

The Rhaegar/Lyanna running away together speculation always seemed suspect to me, because it made the both of them extremely reckless and irresponsible, which seems out of character based on what we know of them.

But the new information just clinches it for me. If the relationship between Aerys and Rhaegar are so hostile by the time of Harrenhal, Aerys’ reaction to the abduction makes zero sense. If Aerys was contemplating removing Rhaegar as heir and naming Viserys instead. Then Rhaegar/Lyanna eloping would be a huge boon to his plans. All he has to do is condemn what Rhaegar did, and he instantly has the Starks and the Baratheons firmly on his side of his cold war with Rhaegar. They would probably back a move to set Rhaegar aside.

Instead he makes an enemy of the Starks by killing Brandon and Rickard, and he demands Robert Baratheon’s head. That is such a head scratcher, because at the point Robert has done nothing, and the person Robert would be likely to direct his anger is Rhaeger. So why kill him? Unless Aerys was the one who first abducted her, then everything falls into place. Aerys knew that Rhaegar knew the truth and once Rhaegar reveals what really happened all these different factions would all line up against him. So he’s trying to preemptively wipe out his future enemies.

[BearQueen87]

As to Amazon--I got the email Monday and it said Wednesday delivery and I got it Wednesday (last week, the website estimated delivery next week, but the Monday email correctly estimated Wednesday). You should log into your Amazon account and check on the status of the order. You should be able to click on a link that should tell you the estimated delivery date.

Yes my Amazon account say between Friday (tomorrow) and Tuesday, but I haven't gotten a "it has been shipped!" email. And now I'm sad.

I am more and more convinced after reading this book that it was Aerys who abducted Lyanna, and Rhaegar rescued her and hid her away from him.

The Rhaegar/Lyanna running away together speculation always seemed suspect to me, because it made the both of them extremely reckless and irresponsible, which seems out of character based on what we know of them.

But the new information just clinches it for me. If the relationship between Aerys and Rhaegar are so hostile by the time of Harrenhal, Aerys’ reaction to the abduction makes zero sense. If Aerys was contemplating removing Rhaegar as heir and naming Viserys instead. Then Rhaegar/Lyanna eloping would be a huge boon to his plans. All he has to do is condemn what Rhaegar did, and he instantly has the Starks and the Baratheons firmly on his side of his cold war with Rhaegar. They would probably back a move to set Rhaegar aside.

Instead he makes an enemy of the Starks by killing Brandon and Rickard, and he demands Robert Baratheon’s head. That is such a head scratcher, because at the point Robert has done nothing, and the person Robert would be likely to direct his anger is Rhaeger. So why kill him? Unless Aerys was the one who first abducted her, then everything falls into place. Aerys knew that Rhaegar knew the truth and once Rhaegar reveals what really happened all these different factions would all line up against him. So he’s trying to preemptively wipe out his future enemies.

My first question is why would Aerys abduct Lyanna? I know some speculate he learned that Lyanna was the KotLT, but why did it take so long to put the pieces together? Varys and his bird work quickly.

[PrettyPig]

He mentioned her death as something he also blames himself for ("The bells tolled for all of us that day. For Aerys and his queen, for Elia of Dorne and her little daughter").

It has been a while since I've read any JonCon text (sorry, don't hate)....what was the context of that quote? Whose death is he referencing here?

Interesting list of people, now matter how you look at it.

To me, all of those are possibilities, but the fact that Rhaegar took six men with the only purpose of meeting with Lyanna, that I don't believe. It doesn't sound very logical.

I agree. There was something else going on, a bigger plan.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes my Amazon account say between Friday (tomorrow) and Tuesday, but I haven't gotten a "it has been shipped!" email. And now I'm sad.

My first question is why would Aerys abduct Lyanna? I know some speculate he learned that Lyanna was the KotLT, but why did it take so long to put the pieces together? Varys and his bird work quickly.

Sorry that you are sad--I guess Amazon likes me better than it likes you. :P

As to Aerys abducting Lyanna, I don't quite understand the endgame there. What was Aerys going to do? If he wanted to put her on trial, he would bring her to KL, not keep her in the Riverlands. If he was just going to kill her, she would have been dead. So what is the possible angle that Aerys was going to play--what was he going to do with her?

[The Wolves]

The best thing that I got out of the world book was that a pact between the Starks and Targaryens was called "The Pact of Ice and Fire"

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Sorry that you are sad--I guess Amazon likes me better than it likes you. :P

As to Aerys abducting Lyanna, I don't quite understand the endgame there. What was Aerys going to do? If he wanted to put her on trial, he would bring her to KL, not keep her in the Riverlands. If he was just going to kill her, she would have been dead. So what is the possible angle that Aerys was going to play--what was he going to do with her?

He might have just wanted information about what Rhaegar was planning. He might have even staged the abduction and tried to frame Rhaegar. Rhaegar might have gotten the winds of what Aerys planned and rode to the riverlands to try to stop it.

[PrettyPig]

As to Aerys abducting Lyanna, I don't quite understand the endgame there. What was Aerys going to do? If he wanted to put her on trial, he would bring her to KL, not keep her in the Riverlands. If he was just going to kill her, she would have been dead. So what is the possible angle that Aerys was going to play--what was he going to do with her?

There's always the whole "two kings to wake a dragon" thing. Aerys had some designs on hatching one, for sure.

I keep getting head-stuck on two things: first, Brandon riding to KL. There is a reason that he thought Rhaegar (and perhaps Lyanna) was there. Not any of Rhaegar's known haunts like Dragonstone or Summerhall - King's Landing. Something led him to believe that Rhaegar had gone there - what was it? Second, Illyrio's talk with Tyrion about Viserys trying to sneak into Dany's room the night before her wedding: "if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead...Viserys was Mad Aerys' son, just so."

Aerys was mad, paranoid, and jealous....and who might he be more jealous of than the golden child of Westeros, who happens to be his own son? What if Aerys wanted to take that which Rhaegar wanted? It would be a smart (albeit nuts) move, check both the northern lords and his son who he believes to be conspiring against him.

This is a bone I gnaw on periodically...I'm iffy on it, but I can see how it could be a possibility.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

There's always the whole "two kings to wake a dragon" thing. Aerys had some designs on hatching one, for sure.

I keep getting head-stuck on two things: first, Brandon riding to KL. There is a reason that he thought Rhaegar (and perhaps Lyanna) was there. Not any of Rhaegar's known haunts like Dragonstone or Summerhall - King's Landing. Something led him to believe that Rhaegar had gone there - what was it? Second, Illyrio's talk with Tyrion about Viserys trying to sneak into Dany's room the night before her wedding: "if he could not have her hand, he would claim her maidenhead...Viserys was Mad Aerys' son, just so."

Aerys was mad, paranoid, and jealous....and who might he be more jealous of than the golden child of Westeros, who happens to be his own son? What if Aerys wanted to take that which Rhaegar wanted? It would be a smart (albeit nuts) move, check both the northern lords and his son who he believes to be conspiring against him.

This is a bone I gnaw on periodically...I'm iffy on it, but I can see how it could be a possibility.

You're talking about the A+L=J theory, right?

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

So much to catch up on!

One thing stands out to me: why have a picture of Jon Snow in an "in universe" historical piece? Are LCs always featured in similar texts?
Just a conceit to get Jon included (right after a picture of Dany, nonetheless) in the book?

Well, for me it confirmed what many readers hate: Jon and Dany are the central characters of the ASOIAF narrative.

1. Oh right. I guess it's more Pycelle than anything. I should keep that in mind. (I want my book)

2. Leaving her out and also insinuating that she wasn't that good looking to begin with (which would please Cersei no doubt). But it's still odd that there's no "and Rhaegar kept her locked away, using her in an ill manner..." ect, which seems to be the standard Westeros tale. That wouldn't offend the Lannisters, but apparently the book doesn't talk about it at all?

Ha! :) Agree that this is Robert's version of events.

I do think that what some people have noted makes sense: whether Lyanna consented to this or not is moot. Legally as the 15 year old daughter of a LP, she couldn't consent to anything herself. Her father and brothers didn't consent to Rhaegar taking her, so in the laws of the Seven Kingdoms, the act is a crime.

The single combat thing is the interesting part. I always thought it was seven against three.

Whether the Great Council intends to set a precedent is irrelevant. It does so by default. Every king sets a precedent when he chose an heir, and the Great Council in 233 chose to pass over a male claimant in his favor of an older claimant from a farther removed cadet branch. That's exactly what Aerys did when he chose Viserys - his own flesh and blood - over the Dornish smelling brats of his ingrate elder son.

More importantly, it seems that after the Dance all kings explicitly named their heirs (i.e. installed them as Princes of Dragonstone). Aerys I recognized all his three heirs as such. Maekar apparently did not yet name Prince Maegor Prince of Dragonstone before his death, explaining why Bloodraven called a Great Council. I imagine Daenora enjoyed some support as well, as Bloodraven apparently feared another Dance may break out without a Great Council.

This is important enough to warrant a thread, I think. Especially since I think there will be another Great Council soon.

So has anyone changed their mind and thinks she was 'kidnapped' now?

I still think she loved him, but to make up her mind so fast to leave with him right then on the road.....idk

Also, who was with her, she must have had a guard, did they get killed by Rhaegar's men?

BearQueen87 is right. I think that Lyanna could have been kidnapped, but I don't doubt her ability to get away and/or abort if she didn't consent to being with Rhaegar. TWOIAF has only strengthened all the Arya/Lyanna parallels, and under no circumstances do I see Arya staying abducted.

I'm sure if Lya had a guard with her, they were killed. But if she was indeed KOLT, and if she ran around Winterfell the way that canon says she did, I can't imagine her not being able to give her guards the slip. This is a young girl forbidden all training at arms who actually won a round at a tourney.

Slipping away from people's grasp was probably relatively easy for Lyanna... which is why I just can't understand readers who think Rhaegar kidnapped her against her will, then forced her to have sex until she conceived. I don't even think Robert believes that himself... the remark "how many hundreds of times?" to me smacked of jealousy, not just outrage...

[PrettyPig]

You're talking about the A+L=J theory, right?

Not necessarily. I gathered from that I/T convo that Aerys had a thing for pissing on trees planted in others' yards. I have wondered whether he knew R had the hots for L and decided to get there first - remind folks who had the power.

[Alia of the knife]

All right. I'm on my way off, so I'll be quick, and post while AHS is loading. (not joking. The book has taken some time out of me and my work... I blame you all!)

I think one of the problems we face as readers, and that affects mostly ALL OF US, is that when a characters says or does something we might not like, we label him/her as "unreliable" or "biased". In the case of JonCon, it's up to the reader to decided if he's in fact unreliable. To me, and I'm trying to put my love (and jokes I make about him) aside, I don't think he is. First, he's not a 12 years old Sansa misremembering a kiss. He's not that old to have mixed information in his head either. The whole idea that "we can't trust Jon because he loved Rhaegar" is a bit silly, imo. Any other man in love is then unreliable as well? Being in love completely takes away your objectivity? Because, Jon doesn't call himself "Rhaegar's one and only absolutely best friend". It's other people who call him "Rhaegar's friend": first, it's Jaime, who was close to the Prince. Barristan, who says he had his favour. There is Tyrion saying he was his best friend (although he never knew Rhaegar) and of course, GRRM himself calling him a close friend. Now, the book says he was one of his closest confidants. Also, Jon has a good opinion of Arthur Dayne. And number two, his opinions about Elia also put him under a bad light of "being so jealous and bitter", when tbh, I think his opinion isn't different from what others believe. In the paragraph he's discussing Elia, he's also talking about her ability to have children. Maybe, in his head, the fact that Rhaegar had to look for another woman is because is Elia's fault that he couldn't provide him with more heirs, which is something Kevan also believes. I don't believe this is about Jon being in love with Rhaegar but on the fact he's sexist (because he IS sexist: believing that Varys isn't a man because he has no penis or Aegon, who was raised by Jon, calling Cersei "a woman"). Considering the Rebellion also affected his life, I suppose is easier to blame it on the woman who couldn't provide his husband with an heir instead of such man (specially if such man was his friend) going with another girl. That doesn't mean he hated Elia and he resented her for have marrying Rhaegar (unless we're implying he secretly wished to have married him instead, come on). He mentioned her death as something he also blames himself for ("The bells tolled for all of us that day. For Aerys and his queen, for Elia of Dorne and her little daughter"). He would never want her dead so Rhaegar would choose him instead. That's more of a Cersei level of fucked up.

So, no. I don't believe Jon is an unreliable narrator, only that he has different opinions about things, as pretty much everybody else. Because then, why would be the purpose of his introductions in books if he isn't meant to provide information for both Jon Snow or readers? Personally, I think he's meant to be for Rhaegar what Howard Reed will be for Lyanna: They are going to tell JonS what kind of people his real parents were. Because HR never knew Rhaegar. How much he can know besides he loved Lyanna and probably married her? And I think that will be Jon's role at the end, to be the one who will introduce the real Rhaegar to JonS, and see Rhaegar in JonS. For instance, Rhaegar surrounded himself with capable people and called friends those who were proven worthy, despite their youth (and maybe origin). That's exactly what JonS is doing now in the Wall, and that's something I'm sure Jon will notice about him, considering he was one of those men Rhaegar chooses as friend and confidant.

Also, that defines what the involvements of both characters will mean for JonS. HR is related to "The Song of Ice and Fire" (as implied/suggested by his children), while Jon is playing "the game of thrones": We know Rhaegar was worrying about both of them, and if someone knew what he believed about prophecies and apocalypses, that's Arthur, and he's dead. Jon's involvement in the story is completely political, and I think he will want to help JonS to gain the throne (after Aegon dies). And if his involvement will be political, that mean that he was related to the political side of Rhaegar that wanted to remove his father, something he apparently supported. This is why I believe that Jon indeed had no idea about anything Rhaegar planned about Lyanna. If he indeed was planning to meet her and that was the motivation for him going to the Riverlands (which I personally doubt), the four men who later left the group and returned to KL/home, were probably unaware or were part of a ruse. Or, they were indeed there for some other reasons and once they left, he went for Lyanna. To me, all of those are possibilities, but the fact that Rhaegar took six men with the only purpose of meeting with Lyanna, that I don't believe. It doesn't sound very logical.

I actually agree with your assessment of JonCon, and will elaborate when I get off work.

[Alia of the knife]

As for the Valaryan wedding rites, perhaps women were the ones who performed the ceremony.

A bit like "Vikings."

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It has been a while since I've read any JonCon text (sorry, don't hate)....what was the context of that quote? Whose death is he referencing here?

Interesting list of people, now matter how you look at it.

They're about to meet the GC. He's remembering a dream he had last night (and every night). The whole thing is "the Battle of the Trident would never have been fought if the griffin had only slain the stag there in Stoney Sept. The bells tolled for all of us that day. For Aerys and his queen, for Elia of Dorne and her little daughter, for every true man and honest woman in the Seven Kingdoms. And for my silver prince". He feels responsible for a lot more deaths than just Rhaegar's.

Which makes me wonder if the absence of Richard Lonmouth during the rebellion meant that he switched sides to Robert or if he gave the Rebels any info. If he's alive, I doubt Jon is going to be pleased to see him again.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

Do we know how much time passed between the Tourney at Harrenhal and Lyannas kidnapping? If Rhaegar encountered Lyanna near Harrenhal it means that either Lyanna has made her way from Winterfell to Harrenhal by herself or the Starks hadn`t returned to Winterfell yet.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Do we know how much time passed between the Tourney at Harrenhal and Lyannas kidnapping? If Rhaegar encountered Lyanna near Harrenhal it means that either Lyanna has made her way from Winterfell to Harrenhal by herself or the Starks hadn`t returned to Winterfell yet.

At least nine months, as there was no Aegon yet nor clue that Elia was pregnant already.

[Lord Varys]

Couldn't have been nine months. Elia must have been pregnant at Harrenhal.

- Rhaenys was born in the end of 280.

- Elia had to recover six, so neither new pregnancy nor journey and 'fun' in this time

- Aegon was born in the end of 281 or the first month of 282

It's best to assume that Elia was in the early months of her during the tourney, which most likely would put in the summer months of the year.

[BearQueen87]

As for the Valaryan wedding rites, perhaps women were the ones who performed the ceremony.

A bit like "Vikings."

:)

Couldn't have been nine months. Elia must have been pregnant at Harrenhal.

- Rhaenys was born in the end of 280.

- Elia had to recover six, so neither new pregnancy nor journey and 'fun' in this time

- Aegon was born in the end of 281 or the first month of 282

It's best to assume that Elia was in the early months of her during the tourney, which most likely would put in the summer months of the year.

Must have been between 1-3 months of pregnancy in order to avoid showing.

[Lord Varys]

Well, no one ever said Elia was not visibly pregnant at Harrenhal...? But I agree that it should have been not more than four months or so, as Elia would certainly have been not keen to go there due to her bad health if her time would have been somewhat close.

[KyleLitke]

In theory that sounds sort of reasonable--but go back to the actual conversation between Ned and KG. When Ned asks why they did not go to Viserys, they say that Darry is a good man but "not of the Kingsguard . . . the Kingsguard does not flee." Under your interpretation that statement makes no sense. How is it fleeing to send at least one of the KG to assist in guarding a potential heir to the throne--unless the king is in ToJ and needs all three. If Jon is not king in the minds of the KG, then the statement just makes no sense. Flee from what? It would only be fleeing if Jon is king. It is not fleeing for the Kingsguard to go be with the king.

And what do you mean Viserys was safe? The KG did not know whether Robert was about to send a force to try to kill him on Dragonstone. As to the Aegon II situation, I think the KG were simply torn by the obligation to obey the king who ordered them to do other duty rather than protect the king. But here there is no king giving orders for them to guard a bastard and mistress over going to the king. The KG don't make those kind of judgment calls.

I would argue that if the Kingsguard was ordered to guard Jon (who, in the theory that he's trueborn, is the heir to the throne at the point Ned shows up, even if we accept that they knew that Aerys had declared Viserys his heir), then they should not be making the judgment call to abandon their sworn duty to go run off with Viserys, unless he undoes those orders. In this theory, they were likely ordered by Rhaegar, a member of the royal family, and for whatever reason, it doesn't seem that Aerys ordered anything otherwise regarding them. It's not their call to make to abandon said member of the royal family.

That's one thing that makes me think Jon would be trueborn, because while (as far as I'm aware), the Kingsguard could be made to guard bastards or mistresses, it's shakier that they'd keep guarding a bastard while the new King is alive. Maybe they would if ordered though...I don't know the precedent there. But if Jon is trueborn, I absolutely think the Kingsguard not only could have but should have continued to do their duty and guard the member of the royal family they were ordered to guard, until Viserys (or whoever his regent is) tells them otherwise.

This also assumes that Viserys was even being considered the "King in Exile" at this point, as opposed to "the 8 year old boy is running away and abdicating the throne". I don't know the answer to that. The answer of "the Kingsguard does not flee" could suggest they weren't viewing this as the rightful king is going to be returning. We can argue over whether that's a call the Kingsguard should be making, but it's still entirely possible that was their viewpoint.