[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2

[Alia of the knife]

In a re-read, I also came across this regarding Dorne.

(Aerys clearly did not like the Dornish nor Elias children, and I wonder if Elias mother didn't take a hostile approach with Aerys, making a power play that would be the ruin of her daughter, as we see Tyrion allude to if Elia had only married her Oldtowne farter, and which also plays into the themes of cycles and especially cycles of revenge).

Selmy:

" The thought hit him like a slap in the face. Quentyn had grown up amongst the courts of Dorne. Plots and poisons were no strangers to him. Nor was Prince Lewyn his only uncle. He is kin ot the Red Viper. Daenerys had taken another for her consort, but if Hizdahr died, she would be free to wed again......"p. 780, aDwD.

[Ellfoy]

So--are we looking smarter now regarding whether Rhaegar concluded that his child with Lyanna would be A Song of Ice and Fire, personified? :cheers:

Yes. Yes we are.

I just noticed that my comment earlier was maybe a little mistinpreted. I was wondering if the story with the hero of the Rhoynar singing a secret song to bring back the days could have been for Rhaegar one of the clues to believe that Aegon (dornish by his mother) was TPTWP at first. Of course, with the Stark/Targaryen marriage being the "pact of ice and fire", it seems logical that Rhaegar would have changed his mind after. Besides, I think that the expression "pact" is an interesting choice, usually the word "aliance" or "match" is used for a mariage alliance I would think. The word "pact" brings to mind the pact between the CotF and The First Men.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I just noticed that my comment earlier was maybe a little mistinpreted. I was wondering if the story with the hero of the Rhoynar singing a secret song to bring back the days could have been for Rhaegar one of the clues to believe that Aegon (dornish by his mother) was TPTWP at first. Of course, with the Stark/Targaryen marriage being the "pact of ice and fire", it seems logical that Rhaegar would have changed his mind after. Besides, I think that the expression "pact" is an interesting choice, usually the word "aliance" or "match" is used for a mariage alliance I would think. The word "pact" brings to mind the pact between the CotF and The First Men.

I agree with this and did not mean to suggest otherwise. I also think that the word "pact" suggests a fairly strong promise -- more than just a normal betrothal, but something more like a sacred bond. Of course, when that side loses, sucking up the winning side is still a worthwhile strategy--so that is what the Starks did.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

In a re-read, I also came across this regarding Dorne.

(Aerys clearly did not like the Dornish nor Elias children, and I wonder if Elias mother didn't take a hostile approach with Aerys, making a power play that would be the ruin of her daughter, as we see Tyrion allude to if Elia had only married her Oldtowne farter, and which also plays into the themes of cycles and especially cycles of revenge).

Selmy:

" The thought hit him like a slap in the face. Quentyn had grown up amongst the courts of Dorne. Plots and poisons were no strangers to him. Nor was Prince Lewyn his only uncle. He is kin ot the Red Viper. Daenerys had taken another for her consort, but if Hizdahr died, she would be free to wed again......"p. 780, aDwD.

A suggestion that Elia's mother might have been trying to poison Aerys?

[Alia of the knife]

A suggestion that Elia's mother might have been trying to poison Aerys?

That, or I was thinking someone from the Dornish faction might want to poison Lyanna.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I posted the analysis below in the "main" RLJ thread, meaning to post it here--regarding that WoIaF, in my view, does not support the theory that Jaehaerys outlawed polygamy--thoughts?

I have now had time to read his section more closely with that issue explicitly in mind. The reason that it gives for codifying the law is merely to have a unified law throughout Westeros rather than having separate customs in each region (the battles with the Faith are not mentioned in regard to that issue). Why would he outlaw a practice that was mostly just an issue for Targaryens (culturally no one else would engage in polygamy, in general), so why would he pass a law that would be specifically aimed against his own family?

The theory seems to be that he did it to appease the Faith. But that is not supported in the text. The text suggests that the codification was done before he approach the Faith for reconciliation. And the reconciliation was a trade in which the Faith agreed to put down their arms and allow themselves to be subject to outside justice (rather that claim to be their own judge and jury) in exchange for the Targ dynasty agreeing to always protect and defend the Faith. That sounds like an exchange in which Jaehaerys had the stronger bargaining power and the Faith knew it was as good a deal as they could get.

Why would Jaehaerys preemptively negotiate against himself by making polygamy illegal before he even approached the Faith for a reconciliation? It makes no sense to me that the unified laws would include a law against polygamy. We know it does not include a law against incest because the Targs kept marrying sisters. And the Faith hated incest as much or more than polygamy. So if they were required to swallow that incest would not be outlawed--logic would dictate that the Faith would have to accept that polygamy was not outlawed.

[the conquering bastard 25]

You asked for evidence I'm giving you evidence.

So the Prince's Pass is home to the Skyreach seat of the Fowlers(whom doesn't get along with this current Yronwood or Martell). Is also located at the bottom of the pass closes to the yronwood land. The Yronwood's have been enemies of the Martells since Nymeria chose them over the royal blood. They were even one of the houses at the feast welcoming the Mountain's head into the Dorne that didn't drink but their bannerman Kingsgrave which is the castle closes to the watchtower known as the Tower of Joy. I can only assume that the Tower of Joy sitting at the top of the Prince's Pass and with Nightsong(sworn to House Baratheon) that it's a look out post/tower used to info Manwoody and the Fowlers of an approaching attack/army moving thought the passes. THat was why the Young Dragon used goat tracks and such to avoid being seen by the watch towers in the passses or did I miss read that?

Quote: Daeron I divided his host into 3 forces: One lead by the lord Tyrell, who came down the Prince's Pass at the western end of the Red Mountain of Dorne. Meaning that the came around the back end of the pass to avoid the watchtower(the tower of Joy!)...marching down the treacherous pass called the Boneway, where he made use of the goat tracks that other considered too dangerous, to go around the dornish watchtowers and avoid the same traps that had caught Orys Baratheon.

Quote: Rheanys Targaryen had no such easy conquest. A host of Dornish spearmen guarded the Prince's pass, the gateway throught the mountain's of Dorne(meaning the Tower of Joy is the check point to getting into the Mountains)

Did I miss the part in Dance and Feast where Doran didn't want to tell Adrianne about Viserys and such because of her closeness to Lady Nym? Whom is always around the Fowler Twins? Whom by all accounts have big mouths? So it's not likely that their father told them about what was going on is the passed but given their age there are about their early twenties they would have been alive in the mountains when the war was going on.

Having Lyanna in the Tower of Joy at the Top of the pass that borders on Robert's territory where they would have heard first if Robert was advancing to Dorne to be able to move Lyanna and keep her out of Robert's hands. The primary function of a watchtower is in it's ablity to be able to send messages of an attacking army. They were in a fucking watchtower during war in a region that bordered on the attacking region.

Then there is the layers of protections that Rheagar left surrounding Lyanna and the 3 KG. There is Yronwood land between Sunspear and Skyreach. Meaning that the Martells would have to march on his lands but given the time frame, Quentyn had not been born nor was he old enough to be a ward of the Blood Royal so there is beef between the two houses and I don't think the Yronwood's would take to kindly to Martells marching though there territory. Then there is Skyreach itself and Fowler and Yronwood don't like each other either so he would take offense if the Yronwood's started to invade his territory unprovoked. With Starfell and High Hermitage at the back to prevent Robert and his forces from trying to sneak into the Mountains the back way and get to Lyanna that way.

Then there is the fact that Rheagar choose Dorne in the first place. Why unless it was part of the peace agreement between Rheagar and Dorne to keep them loyal. Aerys II had Elia as hostage so to keep them for turning their cloaks he left Lyanna in their care. Yet to make sure that they couldn't harm her if the fighting turned against him he left invisiable saftey messures like the location the different major lords that lay between Lyanna and the Martells. Which is why I believe he didn't leave her in Sunspear.

It makes no sense for the tower to be abandoned. It just doesn't. It's a watchtower its primarily function is the provide protection to those that live in the passes in times of war! Last I checked Robert's Rebellion was war and they had to protect themselves. Yet the tower is close enough to four houses that have maesters, ravens and ways of passing information. So they weren't clueless about what was going on in the realm or with the war. Even if there was no ravens or maesters in the tower itself there are castles close enough to still be able to receive messages and such.

Think about what Howland Reed told Ned Stark when he found him still holding his sister's lifeless body. That he used to bring Lyanna flower's she was always fond of flowers. This statement to me means that he was with Lyanna from the time of her abduction to the time she gave birth that he was a runner for the things they needed in the tower. It's not like Whent and company can leave and such their job is to protect Lyanna. So there had to be someone there that was bringing them supplies. Meaning outside contact.

Then think about the story or lie that Ned told about Wylla and her being the mother of Jon Snow. She's a wet nurse in the service of the Daynes. Yet the only reason to tell this story is if some would wonder (in Dorne) how he didn't come to Dorne with a baby, but is leaving one. Someone(s) had to have known or thought that it was strange that Ned was with a baby given that some had to have known that Lyanna was with child. This only works if Ned is trying to cover up the existence of Jon and his parents.

The timeframe also doesn't work. I am to believe that Ned and Howland (even though Ned said that he tore down the tower himself) torn down said tower, had time to build said tower into 8 carrion for the dead, took himself, Reed and a baby with 3 horses, all the way to Starfell and Dawn which every man woman and child in Dorne knows by sight and he wasn't seen the entire time? Oh come on!!! That's a major suspension of belief don't you think.

Cat was in the same type of situation and she didn't have a baby to deal with nor did she only have 1 other person to help her fight the forces that were in the mountain of the Vale. She didn't have time to do the most of the same that Ned did and it was tyrion that pointed out that they didn't have the men or the time to do such. But Ned did. Given that after a war tempers are still flying high especially for those that lost and the Dornish lost. Aegon got his head bust the fuck open(a relative of Dayne's through the Maeker marriage to a Dayne) Elia and her Daughter were killed as well and Elia was suppose to be a suitor to Dayne and Hightower. Then there is Ned as stated the Best friend of the New King, ward of the Hand of the King, LP of the North and none of these men that just lost love ones and family lay hands on Ned. Once again a major suspension of believability. And he's got the dead body of his sister as well.

Then there is Ned's behavior. He went out of his way to send a nobody from the Vale his body and armor, but he couldn't make arrangement for Hightower and Dayne's bodies to be taken back to Starfell and Oldtown. Nor could he make sure that his northern friends get home as well. Something is wrong in the state of Denmark.

As already mentioned if those in the Passes didn't have some idea about what was going on in the tower of Joy why even lie? Yeah I know about Robert and he had to say something. But obviously someone(s) in Dorne know more than they should and this was Ned's way of covering his ass is it ever got back that Lyanna was preggers. Ned can always claim that they are trying to start up trouble between them.

[Hrafntýr]

@UnmaskedLurker: I also don't think there's evidence that Jaehaerys abolished polygamy. Though I would note that the Ironborn seem to practice a sort of modified polygamy. We learned in the worldbook that salt wives are legitimate wives, married by priests of the Drowned God, and that children born of salt wives are considered legitimate, and can inherit if a man has no children by his "rock wife." The section even notes that it was the outlawing of stealing women by Aegon that accounts for the decline of salt marriages on the Iron Islands. One might imagine that if polygamy had been abolished, Yandel would have mentioned that as another reason for the decline in salt marriages, since he's raised the subject of the legal status of such marriages..

[UnmaskedLurker]

@UnmaskedLurker: I also don't think there's evidence that Jaehaerys abolished polygamy. Though I would note that the Ironborn seem to practice a sort of modified polygamy. We learned in the worldbook that salt wives are legitimate wives, married by priests of the Drowned God, and that children born of salt wives are considered legitimate, and can inherit if a man has no children by his "rock wife." The section even notes that it was the outlawing of stealing women by Aegon that accounts for the decline of salt marriages on the Iron Islands. One might imagine that if polygamy had been abolished, Yandel would have mentioned that as another reason for the decline in salt marriages, since he's raised the subject of the legal status of such marriages..

I had not caught that evidence regarding salt wives, but I agree, that is more evidence that polygamy was not outlawed.

ETA: I think this information also adds support that they were married in front of a weirwood by the Old Gods (which apparently allows polygamy, see Crastor and Oldfather) and perhaps the same Velaryian ceremony that Visenya used to marry Maegor to his second wife. Maybe they just avoided using a marriage under the Faith (although I still like the idea of the old traveling Septon being able to confirm he performed the ceremony--but the story can work without it).

[RumHam]

@UnmaskedLurker: I also don't think there's evidence that Jaehaerys abolished polygamy. Though I would note that the Ironborn seem to practice a sort of modified polygamy. We learned in the worldbook that salt wives are legitimate wives, married by priests of the Drowned God, and that children born of salt wives are considered legitimate, and can inherit if a man has no children by his "rock wife." The section even notes that it was the outlawing of stealing women by Aegon that accounts for the decline of salt marriages on the Iron Islands. One might imagine that if polygamy had been abolished, Yandel would have mentioned that as another reason for the decline in salt marriages, since he's raised the subject of the legal status of such marriages..

It doesn't actually say that they are "legitimate wives," just that the ceremonies are also performed by the priests. It also say that the ceremonies are "considerable less solemn" than the normal marriage ceremonies. It does say the children are considered legitimate, but come after any children from the main wife (Not all that unlike bastards in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.)

And yes Aegon banned the stealing of women, but this law was inconsistently enforced by the Greyjoys. So the Salt-wife polygamy could be a similar situation where it's illegal and they just don't care. Like raiding.