[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2

[Lonin]

.snip

Don't discount what we already know from the books, unreliable narration is just that and it does need to be looked at with a critical eye. Jumping to conclusions by anyone does not serve the advancement of any theory, weather you are for or against it.

I agree... I have not finished TWOIAF yet, but I had hoped for something more definitive. GRRM likes his unreliable narration - but sometimes it would be nice for a definitive statement. I sometimes worry that the conclusion of the series might also feature unreliable narration - leaving some things unresolved.

[RumHam]

I think the fact that Yandel knows about it and states it matter of factly suggests that it was proclaimed officially, and public knowledge. It's really not that strange that it never came up before.

[Ygrain]

I think the fact that Yandel knows about it and states it matter of factly suggests that it was proclaimed officially, and public knowledge. It's really not that strange that it never came up before.

Nah. For the Martells, it's a pretty big deal - not only is Elia slighted by Rhaegar, her son is jumped in the succession or removed altogether; an outrage, yet neither Oberyn nor Doran ever mention it. Also, if Aegon is not the heir any more, it means that his murder is much less significant, yet Tywin never states anything to the accord. Finally, we are repeatedly shown how the laws of succession work, yet now we are off-handedly presented with a violation. My explanation may not be the correct one but this "new heir Viserys" thing is definitely iffy.

[BearQueen87]

I think the fact that Yandel knows about it and states it matter of factly suggests that it was proclaimed officially, and public knowledge. It's really not that strange that it never came up before.

I disagree. I think if it had been publicly proclaimed we'd have heard about it by now--as Ygrain says, from the Martells assuredly. I tend to believe that it was a post-Trident move on Aerys' part and only those in the Red Keep knew about it---Rhaella, Viserys himself (from Rhaella), Varys and Pycelle.

[PrettyPig]

I wonder, though....I think back to Jaime's stump dream where he sees "Rhaegar Targaryen, the Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne."

Did Jaime know about someone who was NOT the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I disagree. I think if it had been publicly proclaimed we'd have heard about it by now--as Ygrain says, from the Martells assuredly. I tend to believe that it was a post-Trident move on Aerys' part and only those in the Red Keep knew about it---Rhaella, Viserys himself (from Rhaella), Varys and Pycelle.

And Elia, right?

Actually, I think that Viserys would have been chosen by Aerys over the half-Dornish Aegon. If nothing else, it would have meant a shorter Regency if anything happened to him. I think Aerys thought his old friend would save the day for him post-Trident. He had no idea he was about to be killed by Jaime, the boy he'd only recently elevated to KG in order to spite Tywin.

The one thing we do know about Viserys is that he clearly disregarded his father's ill feelings toward his elder brother. Viserys loved and admired Rhaegar... after all, it's how Dany got her views about him. He was her primary source. As much as Viserys resented everything about his circumstances and those who put him there, I don't recall him ever resenting Rhaegar for dying, or betraying their family, or running off with the Stark girl.

[BearQueen87]

Oh I'm not denying that Aerys might have declared Viserys his heir within the confines of the Red Keep. I'm rejecting the idea that it was known to the public. Had it be announced, surely even Robert would have mentioned it when he and Ned talked about Viserys and the alliance with the Dothraki.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Oh I'm not denying that Aerys might have declared Viserys his heir within the confines of the Red Keep. I'm rejecting the idea that it was known to the public. Had it be announced, surely even Robert would have mentioned it when he and Ned talked about Viserys and the alliance with the Dothraki.

Okay, that I definitely agree with. I just hate to think of Elia hearing that horrific news at the end of her life.

I also place the full blame of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon's deaths on Tywin. As I said on the first spoiler thread, that was my #1 takeaway from the new ToH, R+L=J, and RR information we received from TWOIAF -- how heavily Tywin Lannister's fingerprints are all over the sequence of events that led to Cersei becoming Queen, which is what he intended originally, anyway.

I never understood why he (and for that matter, Robert) were fine with her being killed. It may not have been part of the plan, but they expressed no remorse and offered no recompense to Dorne for that terrible offense. The children I get were a threat because of their Targaryen blood, but Elia was a Princess of Dorne, and they had better be glad that Doran is cautious and likely stayed Oberyn's hand. (But what the Red Viper began, his daughters will finish... that's another thread, though!)

[Ser Creighton]

The book is playing the part of Tywin undeservedly being Aerys's punching bag, which I don't think it's inaccurate, although it mentions little that Tywin actually had it coming.

Not only he said that it didn't matter that Aerys died because Rhaegar would be a better King (something that could have probably offender Rhaegar himself and cause the eventual rupture in his relationship with his father) but he took Cersei with him in case Elia died (again, insulting Rhaegar). So, what did he expected Aerys to do? saying "oh, well, you wanted me dead? no problem, bro... luckily, I survived!". He needed Tywin as Hand, I think Aerys recognised that, but he didn't lose chance to put him in his well deserved place.

Whether Tywin was an instigator on Aerys' later mistrust of Rhaegar, I can't tell, but he definitely could have chosen Rhaegar as King, if it had depended on him, as Rhaegar was more beneficial for him than Aerys. Rhaegar being in good terms with his father, otoh, could mean that he had accepted not naming Tywin as Hand in his eventual reign.

Well it really depends on the timeline which is crucial. I don't think it started out as Tywin going to take down Aerys. I think they had what could be considered a good relationship for Tywin and Aerys. It around the time that Aerys spent a year at the rock that things appear to really have gone south.

I don't actually doubt that Aerys humiliated Tywin publicly as it's more a matter of court record. Lots of people around to see it. But in 268 when they returned from the Rock something happened. It also seems clear that over time Aerys just kept getting worse and worse in terms of his sanity. Nobody failed to notice this.

In terms of the claim of what Tywin said at Duskendale I do not doubt it. Though I don't think Rhaegar was right next to Tywin Rather Tywin is pointing at him while talking to someone else, or someones. No I don't think Rhaegar would of tolerated that talk if he knew about it.

I don't think it's black and white either. Tywin and Aerys seemed to argue and disagree often starting in 268, but I think they had moments where they reconciled as well at least to an extent. Aerys comment that Tywin is a good and Loyal servant. I think Aerys had his moments of crazy but also moments of being lucid and Tywin excepted this and understood what he was into. But as time went on it got worse and worse.

I believe it was around Joanna' death that Tywin made up his mind and I do think Tywin had not forgotten any of the slights by Aerys. One thing he can't stand is being made to look weak, but he knows how to buy his time and a Lannister always pays his debts.

So after Tywin' suffered along came an opportunity, Duskendale. Aerys known by this time to do pretty much exactly what Tywin says he shouldn't do does just that.

Aerys: These fools want me to come to Duskendale, there crazier than I am.

Tywin: Yes you are so right, you must not go to Duskendale. In fact I forbid you to go.

Aerys: You what?

Tywin: I command you not to go

Aerys: Oh really moron well I am going and I am going force.

Tywin: Well yes if you must go then insist you must go in force, I won't let you leave here unless you take a large force with youu.

Aerys: Oh am going and I am only taking three guys, you don't get to tell me what to do, I'm the king.

Tywin hands Aerys several pre packed bags "Wait, don't, stop, oh dear you must not go, woe is us if you leave" Shoves Aerys out the door.

6 months later

Tywin; Nope I refuse to negotiate.

Selmy: I'll go, I'll save him all by myself.

Tywin: Ha! Ok yeah you do that. Ok guys we are going to storm the castle in the morning. They will probably kill Aerys, all hail King Rhaegar first of his name. Who is single, and I have a daughter.

Rhaegar: What?

Tywin: Nothing don't worry about it your grace, super great plan will work.

Little Cersei: Hello salty treats

Rhaegar: Who what?

Little Cersei: Don't worry tall, silver and Emo, momma' going to make it all better.

Rhaegar: Good gods child your like 8.

Little Cersei: It's not the years it's miles silver and foxy.

Rhaegar; It most certainly is the years, I mean sure we got a fucked up idea of appropriate age in this country, but it's not this fucked up.

Little Cersei: Sweety I am going take you like Aegon took Westeros.

Rhaegar: Ok junior no touching, this is your space, and this is my space, I don't want to go in your space and you better not come in mine. Or there will be a spanking.

Little Cersei: Promise?

Rhaegar; No spankings, forget I said it.

Little Cersei: I can't wait to peel you out of that armor.

Rhaegar: There will be no peeling of the prince.

Little Cersei: Don't fight baby it's in the cards "burp!" Want a sip

Rhaegar: Are you... are you drunk? What is wrong with you? You are a child.

Little Cersei: My father never loved me and my mother just died. Hey check out my brother he is hot right?

Rhaegar: Woooooow, I am going to go talk to my buddy Jon now, you ummm, you take care of yourself and seek therapy.

Rhaegar: Hey Jon

JonCon: Hey Rhaegar, you look really great today, like so great just like, I mean like soooo hot.

Rhaegar: Jon I love you buddy but we talked about this.

JonCon: What? Really? Omg you think I am hitting on you? HAHAHAH, me? Go G on you? Come on? I totally don't look at you that way your hotness.

Rhaegar: See it's that last part Jon...

JonCon: What, oh come on I am only teasing. You are so not my type all good looking and tall, and smart and talented. Your like a brother to me, like that kid you were just talking to and her brother Jaime.

Rhaegar: Yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Why do I get the feeling my life is going to get really complex and end poorly.

JonCon: Your so tense here let me just rub that...

Rhaegar: Your space my space Jon, you stay in yours and i'll stay in mine.

JonCon: Or what you going to spank me too

Rhaegar: Dick.

JonCon: Promise

Rhaegar: What is wrong with this world.

JonCon: Oh come on I am just fucking with you, come on lets grab a beer and go make fun of Stannis. It always makes you feel better.

Rhaegar: Ok.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Nah. For the Martells, it's a pretty big deal - not only is Elia slighted by Rhaegar, her son is jumped in the succession or removed altogether; an outrage, yet neither Oberyn nor Doran ever mention it. Also, if Aegon is not the heir any more, it means that his murder is much less significant, yet Tywin never states anything to the accord. Finally, we are repeatedly shown how the laws of succession work, yet now we are off-handedly presented with a violation. My explanation may not be the correct one but this "new heir Viserys" thing is definitely iffy.

Perhaps, because there was so little time between Viserys leaving KL and Aegon dying, Yandel just named Viserys Aerys' heir because in a matter of days, Viserys would indeed be Aerys' heir.

[BearQueen87]

Aerys: These fools want me to come to Duskendale, there crazier than I am.

Tywin: Yes you are so right, you must not go to Duskendale. In fact I forbid you to go.

Aerys: You what?

Tywin: I command you not to go

Aerys: Oh really moron well I am going and I am going force.

Tywin: Well yes if you must go then insist you must go in force, I won't let you leave here unless you take a large force with youu.

Aerys: Oh am going and I am only taking three guys, you don't get to tell me what to do, I'm the king.

Tywin hands Aerys several pre packed bags "Wait, don't, stop, oh dear you must not go, woe is us if you leave" Shoves Aerys out the door.

6 months later

Tywin; Nope I refuse to negotiate.

Selmy: I'll go, I'll save him all by myself.

Tywin: Ha! Ok yeah you do that. Ok guys we are going to storm the castle in the morning. They will probably kill Aerys, all hail King Rhaegar first of his name. Who is single, and I have a daughter.

Rhaegar: What?

Tywin: Nothing don't worry about it your grace, super great plan will work.

Little Cersei: Hello salty treats

Rhaegar: Who what?

Little Cersei: Don't worry tall, silver and Emo, momma' going to make it all better.

Rhaegar: Good gods child your like 8.

Little Cersei: It's not the years it's miles silver and foxy.

Rhaegar; It most certainly is the years, I mean sure we got a fucked up idea of appropriate age in this country, but it's not this fucked up.

Little Cersei: Sweety I am going take you like Aegon took Westeros.

Rhaegar: Ok junior no touching, this is your space, and this is my space, I don't want to go in your space and you better not come in mine. Or there will be a spanking.

Little Cersei: Promise?

Rhaegar; No spankings, forget I said it.

Little Cersei: I can't wait to peel you out of that armor.

Rhaegar: There will be no peeling of the prince.

Little Cersei: Don't fight baby it's in the cards "burp!" Want a sip

Rhaegar: Are you... are you drunk? What is wrong with you? You are a child.

Little Cersei: My father never loved me and my mother just died. Hey check out my brother he is hot right?

Rhaegar: Woooooow, I am going to go talk to my buddy Jon now, you ummm, you take care of yourself and seek therapy.

Rhaegar: Hey Jon

JonCon: Hey Rhaegar, you look really great today, like so great just like, I mean like soooo hot.

Rhaegar: Jon I love you buddy but we talked about this.

JonCon: What? Really? Omg you think I am hitting on you? HAHAHAH, me? Go G on you? Come on? I totally don't look at you that way your hotness.

Rhaegar: See it's that last part Jon...

JonCon: What, oh come on I am only teasing. You are so not my type all good looking and tall, and smart and talented. Your like a brother to me, like that kid you were just talking to and her brother Jaime.

Rhaegar: Yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaah. Why do I get the feeling my life is going to get really complex and end poorly.

JonCon: Your so tense here let me just rub that...

Rhaegar: Your space my space Jon, you stay in yours and i'll stay in mine.

JonCon: Or what you going to spank me too

Rhaegar: Dick.

JonCon: Promise

Rhaegar: What is wrong with this world.

JonCon: Oh come on I am just fucking with you, come on lets grab a beer and go make fun of Stannis. It always makes you feel better.

Rhaegar: Ok.

YES!!!! It has been too long since we had a Ser Creighton story!!!!

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Why do I get the feeling my life is going to get really complex and end poorly.

Both :lmao: and :bawl:

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Ser Creighton, that exchange between Rhae Rhae and "Little Cersei" is worth its weight in gold!!! Classic. :lmao:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

(I'll reply better later but...)

Little Cersei: Sweety I am going take you like Aegon took Westeros.

:lmao:

"With fire and blood? We have Maesters to cure that"

(no, seriously... I need to use that phrase IRL somehow...)

[ARYa_Nym]

I am inclined to think that the beauty does not play the major role, but the character of the person. I think all the girls - Elia, Lyanna, Ashara and Cersei or even Catelyn- were pretty, all in their way. And I agree that people prefer different- some would prefer Elia's delicateness and some (as we can see, most of the boys and young men) preferred Ashara's flirting beauty. I just think that the person's character is more important here. Elia was never described as a beauty queen even by her own brothers-they called her gentle and feeble in health (was it Oberyn or Doran recalling that she was ill most of her childhood, even almost died and that she had a feeble health and was delicate). Word "delicate" was used quite often to describe her and it is quite eloquent word. I presume Elia was a very very very good person and gentle delicate woman (imho, the best for Rhaegar by description, but his heart decided differently), but she didn't have that "wild" thing Oberyn or any other Martell has (Quentyn is quite simple, for example, while Arianna is "wild"), or Lyanna had. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. She was simple, "pale" comparing to girls like Ashara or Cersei, even more simple if comparing to Lyanna (if we presume that she indeed was tKoLT). Anyway, I don't think she wasn't pretty. She was just simple. By description, she was a perfect lady - no wildness, willfulness or stubbornness here - any lord would want for a wife.

It could be true. At the same time how could they know?

Like Jamie said of Lyanna that Robert fought for a cunt and a pretty face. He knows nothing about her beyond that so he wouldn't be talking about her as a person. This compares with Arya. He didn't pay Arya much attention so when he sees Jeyne Poole he's not looking for wildness unlike Theon who would have had the opportunity to know her personally. He's just looking at the fact that she looks too old. We know how she is but that doesn't mean her perception in Westeros is the same. Right now she's seen as a poor damsel who needs to be saved from Ramsay. When in actuality she and Ramsay have a couple of similarities in terms of hunting and murdering people. I don't think Kevan spoke to Lyanna so I'm thinking that it was looks he was referring to. He has nothing else to go on to form him opinion about her. The men in the story refer to her as boyish but it's not like they would have known about her being the KoTLT. It's not like she would have been practicing swords out in the open lest it get back to Rickard.

As for Elia as I mentioned she was described as fair. She's described as sickly but so is Naerys. Naerys also had delicate features and GRRM said Dany resembled her without looking frail like her. But Naerys had that delicate beauty.

Naerys had the Targaryen looks, a very fine and delicate beauty, almost unworldy. She was very slender and small, with big purple eyes and fine, pale, porcelain skin, near translucent.^[2]

It's the soft but fine features. Whereas elsewhere GRRM said that Arya was sharp-featured so I'm guessing Lyanna was too.

So I think they could focus on how sickly she looked but it doesn't mean she wasn't pretty in spite of that much like Naerys.

[Alia of the knife]

I think it depends on many things in terms of her health, could she get around easily, did she tire easily?

As for Lyanna Robert certainly thought Lyanna beautiful, enough that it was her name he called on his wedding night to Cersei, and her name the last thing Rhaegar uttered.

My friend use to be in the National guard, and in uniform, she looked pretty masculine, but at the club, she was ALL woman.

[The Twinslayer]

Nah. For the Martells, it's a pretty big deal - not only is Elia slighted by Rhaegar, her son is jumped in the succession or removed altogether; an outrage, yet neither Oberyn nor Doran ever mention it. Also, if Aegon is not the heir any more, it means that his murder is much less significant, yet Tywin never states anything to the accord. Finally, we are repeatedly shown how the laws of succession work, yet now we are off-handedly presented with a violation. My explanation may not be the correct one but this "new heir Viserys" thing is definitely iffy.

I don't think the fact that Aegon wasn't Aerys' heir in any way diminishes what was done to Elia and her children. That is clear from Oberyn's actions in the duel with Gregor.

Also, there is no reason for Doran to spend time thinking about how Aerys slighted Aegon. Doran is a practical person and given that Aegon and Aerys died at the same time, as far as he is concerned it does not matter if Viserys is king because he inherited from Aerys or from Aegon -- either way, Doran and Oberyn both accept that Viserys is the 'rightful heir,' since they are trying to marry him to Arianne.

[Ser Creighton]

Looks often come down to personal taste, bias, perception, etc... Different strokes for different folks. Kevan has a natural bias towards his family, but that does not mean Rhaegar shared the same perception. There is a lot of this person was attractive and that same person not being attractive to someone else in the story.

Jaime and Bree not saying it's a love story but they have something, when you care about someone it's not hard to see the beauty in them.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Perhaps, because there was so little time between Viserys leaving KL and Aegon dying, Yandel just named Viserys Aerys' heir because in a matter of days, Viserys would indeed be Aerys' heir.

While I basically agree with this as an explanation for why WoIaF refers to Viserys that way, isn't there pretty strong evidence that Aerys died first and thus arguably Viserys became Aegon's heir and was never Aerys's heir (absent Aerys naming Viserys as heir).

Basically, I have heard three possible explanation for the statement in the book (assuming it is not merely an outright error):

1) Some variation of--because Aegon died around the same time as Aerys, functionally Viserys became the heir after all of the deaths, and so the authors were simply condensing the description rather than clarifying that Aegon was heir for a short time but then was killed a couple of week later and Viserys became the heir to the Targ throne.

2) After Rhaegar died, Aerys named Viserys as the heir. Given that no one in the main series has ever mentioned this fact, this information was known only by insiders in the Red Keep, but was never publicly announced.

3) After the GC that named Egg as King, a new precedent was set from there forward that the younger son of the king inherited before the grandson of the king by a dead older son of the king.

I find 3) completely implausible, but some on the boards have been pushing it strongly. I am split between 1) and 2), but tend to prefer 1), but would not be surprised if we later find out that 2) was the case. Between 1) or 2), I am not sure it makes that much of a difference EXCEPT 2) would make DoD 2.0 more interesting because Dany could claim that she was named as Viserys's heir and thus it does not matter whether fAegon is really the son of Rhaegar or not--she would be ahead of him based on Aerys naming Viserys over Aegon as heir and then Viserys naming her. The more I think about it, the more I suspect that is exactly the reason this clue has been planted in WoIaF. Dany may be one of the only people who knew this fact (Viserys having told her), but with Aegon and Rhaenys dead, it did not matter so it never came up. With Aegon supposedly returned from the dead--it matters and sets up DoD 2.0 perfectly (although with Aegon as a Blackfyre/Brightflame, it also is another iteration of the Blackfyre Rebellion as well). History just keeps repeating itself.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Looks often come down to personal taste, bias, perception, etc... Different strokes for different folks. Kevan has a natural bias towards his family, but that does not mean Rhaegar shared the same perception. There is a lot of this person was attractive and that same person not being attractive to someone else in the story.

Agreed, and that's what we find in the real world, anyway. Qualities other than physical features attract us, and sometimes those qualities shine through in the person's physicality as ARYa_Nym notes.

Lyanna was unlike most highborn girls and women during that period in one major way: she likely got plenty of physical exercise. The girl was riding horses and handling weapons like a male youth. That likely gave her a vitality that Yandel thought of as "boyish," not because it was masculine, but because real highborn women were more cloistered and less physically active. But her spirit and athleticism was incredibly attractive to Robert, and apparently drew the eye of Rhaegar, too, whose own wife was a more fragile beauty. The "wolf blood" is what drew male admirers to Lyanna Stark over "delicate" or "more beautiful" options.

Fragile, sweet beauty gets worshipped and praised, but it's not generally a casus belli. And what I've heard men say about some (not all) extremely beautiful girls is that there is often a sense of entitlement, and an arrogance that lessen their beauty.

But men have started wars over spirited beauties from Helen of Troy until now. Cleopatra was not that great looking and she had the most powerful men in the world longing for her. It was her confidence. Look at all those Blackwood women marrying into various Great Houses. Powerful men want and need powerful women in their lives.

Clearly, 15 year old Lyanna Stark was worth a civil war... at least, to the men who loved her. Although that was just the spark on very dry kindling, for I am sure that even if Rhaegar had stayed home and Lyanna ended up at Storm's End, the realm would've been torn apart by civil war around 283 anyway. If nothing else can be taken from Yandel's account, we definitely know that things were unraveling after Duskendale, and by the Year of the False Spring (281), there was a cold war between the king and the prince. Key information for understanding the context of R+L=J.

[Ygrain]

Perhaps, because there was so little time between Viserys leaving KL and Aegon dying, Yandel just named Viserys Aerys' heir because in a matter of days, Viserys would indeed be Aerys' heir.

That was my first thought, as well - merely 20/20 hindsight. Then I tried to elaborate, and tie in Aerys' affection for Viserys.

Either way, it changes nothing - all three KG still claim that their duty is at ToJ, not with Viserys, Arthur Dayne is still the finest KG ever, the first duty was still being fulfilled at the ultimate cost. The KG wouldn't have abandoned the king at KL then, they wouldn't abandon the king at ToJ now. Details don't really matter.