[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Perhaps, because there was so little time between Viserys leaving KL and Aegon dying, Yandel just named Viserys Aerys' heir because in a matter of days, Viserys would indeed be Aerys' heir.

This is actually what I think it is.

[Giant of Tarth]

I wonder, though....I think back to Jaime's stump dream where he sees "Rhaegar Targaryen, the Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne."

Did Jaime know about someone who was NOT the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?

[Giant of Tarth]

His own children.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I wonder, though....I think back to Jaime's stump dream where he sees "Rhaegar Targaryen, the Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne."

Did Jaime know about someone who was NOT the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?

Robert.

[ARYa_Nym]

Agreed, and that's what we find in the real world, anyway. Qualities other than physical features attract us, and sometimes those qualities shine through in the person's physicality as ARYa_Nym notes.

Lyanna was unlike most highborn girls and women during that period in one major way: she likely got plenty of physical exercise. The girl was riding horses and handling weapons like a male youth. That likely gave her a vitality that Yandel thought of as "boyish," not because it was masculine, but because real highborn women were more cloistered and less physically active. But her spirit and athleticism was incredibly attractive to Robert, and apparently drew the eye of Rhaegar, too, whose own wife was a more fragile beauty. The "wolf blood" is what drew male admirers to Lyanna Stark over "delicate" or "more beautiful" options.

Fragile, sweet beauty gets worshipped and praised, but it's not generally a casus belli. And what I've heard men say about some (not all) extremely beautiful girls is that there is often a sense of entitlement, and an arrogance that lessen their beauty.

But men have started wars over spirited beauties from Helen of Troy until now. Cleopatra was not that great looking and she had the most powerful men in the world longing for her. It was her confidence. Look at all those Blackwood women marrying into various Great Houses. Powerful men want and need powerful women in their lives.

Clearly, 15 year old Lyanna Stark was worth a civil war... at least, to the men who loved her. Although that was just the spark on very dry kindling, for I am sure that even if Rhaegar had stayed home and Lyanna ended up at Storm's End, the realm would've been torn apart by civil war around 283 anyway. If nothing else can be taken from Yandel's account, we definitely know that things were unraveling after Duskendale, and by the Year of the False Spring (281), there was a cold war between the king and the prince. Key information for understanding the context of R+L=J.

Well Robert didn't actually know her. In AGoT when Cersei wouldn't let him participate in the tourney he thinks Lyanna would have as if she would be more compliant than Cersei. Then Ned told him you didn't know her and she would have told you you had no business in the melee or whatever it was he wanted to do.

He could have thought she would be a nice lady who would just let him do as he saw fit. Someone who is not willful or wild so to speak since Cersei not listening to him is one of her faults in his mind. I'm sure Lyanna became ideals of possessing the opposite of whatever it is he disliked in Cersei.

I actually think if he knew her actual spirit he wouldn't have liked her. He wants a doormat.

That's what I was saying about the other men who comment on her looks in this story and Kevan and Jamie. They didn't know her and they wouldn't have known about her activities since they were done in secret.

[Ser Creighton]

Robert.

Ha! Nice.

[Ser Creighton]

I wonder, though....I think back to Jaime's stump dream where he sees "Rhaegar Targaryen, the Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne."

Did Jaime know about someone who was NOT the rightful heir to the Iron Throne?

Ahh see I think this is were stuff like facts and Pycelle come into play. What he said may not be the truth or whoever told them may not have spoken true. After all winners write the history. It's a pretty classic defamation of the Martell family and Rhaegar and that would work out in you know who' favor. They did ask Jaime the question and he does think about Vis as a possible heir but he is the one choosing, he never thinks of him ahead of Rhaegar. Rhaegar is dead by then. This sort of thing is common in history and this is where you have to put your knowledge of the books in play. Which you did.

[Hrafntýr]

Regarding the "Viserys named heir" issue, I just remembered that Ran stated here the following:

Re: the Robert's Rebellion excerpt, I think I'll offer one point about it...

When we wrote this, we proposed that the color of the "parchment" texture used for the book be subtly different from the rest of the text. That proved not feasible, I think, but in any case, that was the intention under which we wrote.

So, the idea was to flag even more explicitly the fact that there is tampering with the history, in this case going beyond the idea that Yandel is drawing upon biased sources to suggest that someone else may have actually slipped in an alternate account.

Not sure, though, if Ran's statement can also be taken to refer to the section "The End," in which we get the Viserys info, which is technically separate from the "Robert's Rebellion" section.

[Alia of the knife]

Looks often come down to personal taste, bias, perception, etc... Different strokes for different folks. Kevan has a natural bias towards his family, but that does not mean Rhaegar shared the same perception. There is a lot of this person was attractive and that same person not being attractive to someone else in the story.

Jaime and Bree not saying it's a love story but they have something, when you care about someone it's not hard to see the beauty in them.

Agreed, and I think that as a value, tKotLT may stand as the last true symbol of heroic chivalry in a time and place where all good things have eroded because of time and corruption.

The fact that as a woman, Lyanna embraced honor for herself as an individual and not an extension of her menfolk was not just extraordinary but revolutionary for that time.

It also sort of parallels Aryas choices of a life of ease as a courtesan, or a fighter.

Robert knew only Lyannas beauty, but Rhaegar knew the steel beneath.

[RumHam]

Nah. For the Martells, it's a pretty big deal - not only is Elia slighted by Rhaegar, her son is jumped in the succession or removed altogether; an outrage, yet neither Oberyn nor Doran ever mention it.

Well considering the children had their heads bashed in, I'd say being passed over as heir of a fallen dynasty doesn't really rate as a "big deal." Do Doran or Oberyn ever mention the crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhal or Elia being held hostage for their loyalty? (This is a serious question, they might and I'm just forgetting.)

Also, if Aegon is not the heir any more, it means that his murder is much less significant, yet Tywin never states anything to the accord.

Tywin doesn't speak about it much either, I'm pretty sure he never said anything like "I had Aerys' heir killed."

Finally, we are repeatedly shown how the laws of succession work, yet now we are off-handedly presented with a violation.

It's not a violation of the laws of succession, the king can name his heir skipping over people as he pleases. We've seen examples of this.

My explanation may not be the correct one but this "new heir Viserys" thing is definitely iffy.

Look there are things in the book that are incorrect due to the Maester's ignorance or prejudices. It's possible that he fucked up, like those little mistakes about factual things in The Princess and the Queen. But it's no more likely to be a mistake than any other statement of a widely known fact in the book. After all his source for this stuff was Grand Maester Pycell, who would know better than anyone who was Aerys' heir. Respectfully, you just think it's iffy because it sorta challenges some of the things you've believed about Jon and the kingsguard for so long. When you think about it, it makes more sense for Viserys to be named heir than Aegon.

1. Aegon was an infant. People know that infant kings are a bad idea.

Aerys knew there was a good chance King's Landing would fall / burn. He sent his heir away.

Aerys did not like his smelly Dornish grandchildren, nor was he a big fan of Dorne.

Regarding the "Viserys named heir" issue, I just remembered that Ran stated here the following:

So, the idea was to flag even more explicitly the fact that there is tampering with the history, in this case going beyond the idea that Yandel is drawing upon biased sources to suggest that someone else may have actually slipped in an alternate account.

Not sure, though, if Ran's statement can also be taken to refer to the section "The End," in which we get the Viserys info, which is technically separate from the "Robert's Rebellion" section.

The idea is that he re-wrote that part once Robert won so he would be a gallant rebel saving the realm from the Mad King instead of an oathbreaking usurper. Why would he change the identity of Aerys' heir?

By the way I don't rule out that that line was put in there to fuck with our heads about the idea of Jon being the rightful king. But I don't think Yandel got it wrong, because it makes total sense that Aerys would name Viserys heir in that situation. In the end it didn't make much of a difference, as he, Aegon and Rhaenys were soon dead.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Well considering the children had their heads bashed in, I'd say being passed over as heir of a fallen dynasty doesn't really rate as a "big deal." Do Doran or Oberyn ever mention the crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhal or Elia being held hostage for their loyalty? (This is a serious question, they might and I'm just forgetting.)

In the show, but not in books. Oberyn mentions nothing at all, even though he was in Harrenhall as well. Brandon and Robert were mad, but nothing is said about Oberyn.

[Alia of the knife]

We do see that the show is dropping clues as well.

Again, I think the silence of the Martells in the book, thus far, have more to do with the Authors unwillingness at that point in time to reveal anything through their POVS.

Oberyn made a pretty strong statement, so it would be weird for it to be completely backwards in the books. I imagine in tWoW, we will get more definitive information.

I think you already see it in Ariannes readiness to blame Dany for Quintyns demise, even though she had no apparent love for him herself.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

OMG guys you write faster than I will ever be able to catch up reading. And since the thread looks like it will be closing soon, I had to get a foot in even though I have only read the first two and the last page... anyway, these things probably matter:

Oh. Slightly OT (but sorta not) when we migrate back to our other "home" in the General Forum, we should make sure to include links to these WOIAF threads in the complete list of RLJ threads.

is noted.

You can make use of the time before it getes locked and quote directly from there :-)

Just in the very probable case some of these sort of threads will be locked long before 28 November 2014, you still can sort of copy an paste from here and link back manually, although less gracefully...

Now I'll go back catching up. See you later!

[Ser Creighton]

We do see that the show is dropping clues as well.

Again, I think the silence of the Martells in the book, thus far, have more to do with the Authors unwillingness at that point in time to reveal anything through their POVS.

Oberyn made a pretty strong statement, so it would be weird for it to be completely backwards in the books. I imagine in tWoW, we will get more definitive information.

I think you already see it in Ariannes readiness to blame Dany for Quintyns demise, even though she had no apparent love for him herself.

Everyone in the south is always so quiet, the Daynes anyone?

I do find Arianne blaming Dany for something she had no hand in and the fact that Selmy tried to the save them from their own stupidity interesting. I mean look at her recent past, Kid gets have her face cut off and Aerys gets killed because she had this insane plan to use both of them and her friends.

When it came to Quin her resentment seemed to stem from the fact that she thought he was replacing her. The Martell family appears to be very strong minded but also extremely close in a lot of ways.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

We do see that the show is dropping clues as well.

Again, I think the silence of the Martells in the book, thus far, have more to do with the Authors unwillingness at that point in time to reveal anything through their POVS.

Oberyn made a pretty strong statement, so it would be weird for it to be completely backwards in the books. I imagine in tWoW, we will get more definitive information.

I think you already see it in Ariannes readiness to blame Dany for Quintyns demise, even though she had no apparent love for him herself.

Still, it wasn't that hard to have Oberyn saying or mention one line about Rhaegar. Even the same he said in the book "oh, my sister loved him and he ran away with another woman". He puts zero blame on Rhaegar. Either because he believes that or because, obviously, being raped and killed is definitely waaaaaay more serious than being spurned, and he wouldn't have mind Rhaegar having a mistress -or even a second wife- as long as Elia was still alive.

[Alia of the knife]

Still, it wasn't that hard to have Oberyn saying or mention one line about Rhaegar. Even the same he said in the book "oh, my sister loved him and he ran away with another woman". He puts zero blame on Rhaegar. Either because he believes that or because, obviously, being raped and killed is definitely waaaaaay more serious than being spurned, and he wouldn't have mind Rhaegar having a mistress -or even a second wife- as long as Elia was still alive.

I just tend to tread cautiously with a characters silence, even Neds, as an indication, particularly from the first books as that could just be Martin not ready to make a reveal yet.

Edit: I don't think he necessarily blames Rhaegar, which is different from them not being happy with him as Martin confirmed.

[Anath]

Still, it wasn't that hard to have Oberyn saying or mention one line about Rhaegar. Even the same he said in the book "oh, my sister loved him and he ran away with another woman". He puts zero blame on Rhaegar. Either because he believes that or because, obviously, being raped and killed is definitely waaaaaay more serious than being spurned, and he wouldn't have mind Rhaegar having a mistress -or even a second wife- as long as Elia was still alive.

Or continuing this line of reasoning, even Elia being sent away and Aegon being declared a bastard? I mean, why would he hold any grudge against Rhaegar, as long as they were alive?

It wasn't that hard to mention that Rhaegar would have made a great king either. Or mention anything about being happy with the match Elia made.

[Alia of the knife]

Everyone in the south is always so quiet, the Daynes anyone?

I do find Arianne blaming Dany for something she had no hand in and the fact that Selmy tried to the save them from their own stupidity interesting. I mean look at her recent past, Kid gets have her face cut off and Aerys gets killed because she had this insane plan to use both of them and her friends.

When it came to Quin her resentment seemed to stem from the fact that she thought he was replacing her. The Martell family appears to be very strong minded but also extremely close in a lot of ways.

Yes, because she clearly is insinuating madness on the part of Dany, though coming from Arianne, that could be a rubber stamp for Danys sanity.

As for the Daynes, my crackpot is that Edric, as young as he is, might have been actually approaching Ned for Aryas hand at the Tourney, and that is why he lost his nerve.

The Starks owe the Daynes in terms of honor.

[Hrafntýr]

Well considering the children had their heads bashed in, I'd say being passed over as heir of a fallen dynasty doesn't really rate as a "big deal." Do Doran or Oberyn ever mention the crowning of Lyanna at Harrenhal or Elia being held hostage for their loyalty? (This is a serious question, they might and I'm just forgetting.)

Tywin doesn't speak about it much either, I'm pretty sure he never said anything like "I had Aerys' heir killed."

It's not a violation of the laws of succession, the king can name his heir skipping over people as he pleases. We've seen examples of this.

Look there are things in the book that are incorrect due to the Maester's ignorance or prejudices. It's possible that he fucked up, like those little mistakes about factual things in The Princess and the Queen. But it's no more likely to be a mistake than any other statement of a widely known fact in the book. After all his source for this stuff was Grand Maester Pycell, who would know better than anyone who was Aerys' heir. Respectfully, you just think it's iffy because it sorta challenges some of the things you've believed about Jon and the kingsguard for so long. When you think about it, it makes more sense for Viserys to be named heir than Aegon.

1. Aegon was an infant. People know that infant kings are a bad idea.

Aerys knew there was a good chance King's Landing would fall / burn. He sent his heir away.

Aerys did not like his smelly Dornish grandchildren, nor was he a big fan of Dorne.

The idea is that he re-wrote that part once Robert won so he would be a gallant rebel saving the realm from the Mad King instead of an oathbreaking usurper. Why would he change the identity of Aerys' heir?

By the way I don't rule out that that line was put in there to fuck with our heads about the idea of Jon being the rightful king. But I don't think Yandel got it wrong, because it makes total sense that Aerys would name Viserys heir in that situation. In the end it didn't make much of a difference, as he, Aegon and Rhaenys were soon dead.

But Yandel's entire work is composed post-Rebellion (he took his vows as a maester in the 9th year of Robert's reign), and is colored throughout with pro-Baratheon and pro-Lannister sentiments. What I thought was interesting about Ran's comment is that it implies that there was something special about this section in particular, that the authors wanted to hit their readers over the head with the evidence of later revision.

I mean, I think that the likeliest explanation was that the section was re-written after Robert's death to make it even more pro-Lannister. But the "different parchment" idea could imply someone else's hand altogether, that's all I was thinking. But really I can't think of how making a false claim that Viserys was heir actually changes anything for anyone in-world (though it may for us readers, hence all this discussion!).

[Gala]

It could be true. At the same time how could they know?

Like Jamie said of Lyanna that Robert fought for a cunt and a pretty face. He knows nothing about her beyond that so he wouldn't be talking about her as a person. This compares with Arya. He didn't pay Arya much attention so when he sees Jeyne Poole he's not looking for wildness unlike Theon who would have had the opportunity to know her personally. He's just looking at the fact that she looks too old. We know how she is but that doesn't mean her perception in Westeros is the same. Right now she's seen as a poor damsel who needs to be saved from Ramsay. When in actuality she and Ramsay have a couple of similarities in terms of hunting and murdering people. I don't think Kevan spoke to Lyanna so I'm thinking that it was looks he was referring to. He has nothing else to go on to form him opinion about her. The men in the story refer to her as boyish but it's not like they would have known about her being the KoTLT. It's not like she would have been practicing swords out in the open lest it get back to Rickard.

As for Elia as I mentioned she was described as fair. She's described as sickly but so is Naerys. Naerys also had delicate features and GRRM said Dany resembled her without looking frail like her. But Naerys had that delicate beauty.

It's the soft but fine features. Whereas elsewhere GRRM said that Arya was sharp-featured so I'm guessing Lyanna was too.

So I think they could focus on how sickly she looked but it doesn't mean she wasn't pretty in spite of that much like Naerys.

You, probably, didn't understand me correctly. English is not my native language, so sorry. I've never meant to say Kevan or Jaime talked to her. I meant for Rhaegar it was her character, not her beauty that mattered. That wild thing...daring, strong will and sense of justice...if she was tKoLT and Rhaegar knew that, probably, even talked to her...that what played the major part, but not her incredible looks. I presume we can agree that Ashara definitely was the most beautiful of all, that at least was mentioned a lot by different people. Even Kevan admits Lyanna had a wild kind of beauty. Lyanna was said to be pretty by few as well, Cersei too, even Cat once or twice, Elia was always described fair and delicate. If you think that any person's character (I mean personal features like shyness or hot temper) does not affects his/her looks, features and even movements you are very much mistaken. I think it is the same here. Look at Arya, how she behaves, she speaks what she thinks, she defends the innocent (at least tries) and she is considered wild. I just think that Rhaegar was good to Elia, he treated her well, as Barristan said "fond of her", he didn't love her all the same. He was faithful and dutiful up to the point he fell in love for real. And looks didn't play any kind of role here. I think, it's the character that inflamed him in Lyanna. Elia could be the most fair girl ever, but if she was simple...I do not know how to describe what I am trying to say. I know few very pretty women, who are at the same time simple and uninteresting, which doesn't make them bad at all, mind you. And sometimes you can meet a girl or a woman with average looks, but you won't be able to take your eyes of her, especially if you talk to her (which has nothing to do with what she wears or her make up). Some people has it, some don't. Not mentioning that people in general like different things (to me Elia and Rhaegar were too alike, while Lyanna was complete opposite).

Of course, Kevan and Jaime (as many people in real world) make their conclusions just out of looks, if it wasn't like that Cersei won't be liked at all. But men like beauty, most of them, sometimes they do not bother with other things, like kindness or even woman's mind. If such things happen nowadays, during Medieval it was even less important. While woman's health and her looks were VERY important.