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Ygrain

[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2

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Dorne, Dorne, Dorne. I go back to this every time politics is brought up but if Elia knew what was going on and was, moveover, somewhat accepting then she could convince Doran not to rise up against Rhaegar. It would not be easy...not even a little. But there's a chance.

Lewyn was part of Rhaegar's circle. Dorne was definitely on whatever he planned. He could have been one of the men he brought to the Riverlands as well. With him, his circle makes six.

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Lewyn was part of Rhaegar's circle. Dorne was definitely on whatever he planned. He could have been one of the men he brought to the Riverlands as well. With him, his circle makes six.

Totally forgot about Lewyn. Thanks.

I know in the previous thread someone (PrettyPig?) was speculating that Doran Martell might have been the financial backer at HH, or maybe gone in half way with Rhaegar.

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That's a really good question. Does Lyanna still die in this scenario? Because if she was alive and had R's child, then I think R could have brought over Ned and the North quite easily given that she's explain that she wasn't kidnapped and raped. And if anyone could get Robert to calm down--erm...a bit--it might have been Ned, though I grant Robert is tricky. And of course, if Lyanna dies without telling Ned everything...I don't know. That makes it a lot harder.

Dorne, Dorne, Dorne. I go back to this every time politics is brought up but if Elia knew what was going on and was, moveover, somewhat accepting then she could convince Doran not to rise up against Rhaegar. It would not be easy...not even a little. But there's a chance.

Let's assume that Lyanna would still die because it would take time end rebellion and Rhaegar couldn't win battle and then dissapeard again because Aerys could screw up again.

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Toss Robert among them and you have a monumental foursome.

LOL omfg

post the quote

Here's one part.

'If this tale be believed 'twas Prince Rhaegar who urged Lord Walter to hold the tourney, using his lordship's brother Ser Oswell as a go-between. Rhaegar provided Whent with gold sufficient for splendid prizes in order to bring as many lords and knights to Harrenhell as possible. The prince, it is said, had no interest in the tourney as a tourney, his intent was o gather the great lords of the realm together in what amounted to an informal Great Council, in order to discuss ways and means of dealing with the madness of his father, King Aerys II, possibly by means of a regency or a forced abdication.

If indeed this was the purpose behind the tourney, it was a perilous game that Rhaegar was playing. Though few doubted that Aerys had taken leave of his senses, many still had godd reason to oppose his removal from the IT, for certain courtiers and councillors had gained great wealth and power through the king's caprice and knew that they stood to lose all should Prince Rhaegar come to power.

The Mad king could be savagely cruel, as seen most plainly when he burned those he perceived to be his enemies, but he could also be extravagant, showering men who pleased him with honors, offices, and lands. The lickspittle lords who surrounded Aerys II had gained much and more from the king's madness and eagerly seized upon any opportunity to speak ill of Rhaegar and inflame the father's suspicions of the son.'

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I wonder if Rhaegar would win Trident and call Great Council, who would be part of council? Previous Council gathered almost all lords from Westeros but what now after rebellion? Half of kingdom was in open rebellion(and at least Starks and Baratheon were justified in their rebellion when Aerys demanded heads of Robert and Ned) and I doubt that Rhaegar could expect their support unless he takes hostages and blackmail them. Or it would be just lords from loyal Houses(Reach,Dorne,etc)? What do you think about that?

I think there would have to be some sort of shake-out in the "losing" territories. For example, the Starks would have to either "bend the knee" or be replaced. I think each area would have a representative, but some areas might have new leadership based on punishment toward the losers--kind of like the Boltons replacing Starks as wardens of the north.

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Totally forgot about Lewyn. Thanks.

I know in the previous thread someone (PrettyPig?) was speculating that Doran Martell might have been the financial backer at HH, or maybe gone in half way with Rhaegar.

That's definitely a possibility, but, wouldn't be odd that Rhaegar would cause a conflict with the only main Lord who was backing him up and marrying/eloping someone else?

But let's put that aside for a moment :lol:

Now, whether Doran was involved in the Tourney or not, I'm sure they counted on him and Dorne, and Lewyin was helping on that. So,

In Dorne, he had the Martells and the Daynes.

In the Riverlands, the Whents, Mootons and I assume, the Darrys (yes, I'm sure that's the place "not ten miles from HH" he took his men with)

In the Stormlands, the Lonmouths and Conningtons (also, Jon mentioned his own friends hadn't forgotten Rhaegar, which probably mean more Lords were involved).

In the Reach, if the KG was involved, the Hightowers?

No small houses at all.

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Here is the part that talks about the Tournament at Harrenhal.



For seven days the finest knights and noblest lords of the Seven Kingdoms contended with lance and sword in the fields beneath the towering walls of Harrenhal. At night, victors and vanquished alike repaired to the castle’s cavernous Hall of a Hundred Hearths, for feasting and celebration. Many songs and stories are told of those days and nights beside the Gods Eye. Some are even true. To recount every joust and jape is far outside our purpose here. That task we gladly leave to the singers. Two incidents must not be passed over, however, for they would prove to have grave consequences.



The first was the appearance of a mystery knight, a slight young man in ill-fitting armor whose device was a carved white weirwood tree, its features twisted in mirth. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, as this challenger was called, unhorsed three men in successive tilts, to the delight of the commons.



King Aerys II was not a man to take any joy in mysteries, however. His Grace became convinced that the tree on the mystery knight’s shield was laughing at him, and—with no more proof than that—decided that the mystery knight was Ser Jaime Lannister. His newest Kingsguard had defied him and returned to the tourney, he told every man who would listen.



Furious, he commanded his own knights to defeat the Knight of the Laughing Tree when the jousts resumed the next morning, so that he might be unmasked and his perfidy exposed for all to see. But the mystery knight vanished during the night, never to be seen again. This too the king took ill, certain that someone close to him had given warning to “this traitor who will not show his face.”



Prince Rhaegar emerged as the ultimate victor at the end of the competition. The crown prince, who did not normally compete in tourneys, surprised all by donning his armor and defeating every foe he faced, including four knights of the Kingsguard. In the final tilt, he unhorsed Ser Barristan Selmy, generally regarded as the finest lance in all the Seven Kingdoms, to win the champion’s laurels.



The cheers of the crowd were said to be deafening, but King Aerys did not join them. Far from being proud and pleased by his heir’s skill at arms, His Grace saw it as a threat. Lords Chelsted and Staunton inflamed his suspicions further, declaring that Prince Rhaegar had entered the lists to curry favor with the commons and remind the assembled lords that he was a puissant warrior, a true heir to Aegon the Conqueror.



And when the triumphant Prince of Dragonstone named Lyanna Stark, daughter of the Lord of Winterfell, the queen of love and beauty, placing a garland of blue roses in her lap with the tip of his lance, the lickspittle lords gathered around the king declared that further proof of his perfidy. Why would the prince have thus given insult to his own wife, the Princess Elia Martell of Dorne (who was present), unless it was to help him gain the Iron Throne? The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king.



Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End. Eddard Stark, Brandon’s younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince’s gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due … but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.



And well it might, for with that simple garland of pale blue roses, Rhaegar Targaryen had begun the dance that would rip the Seven Kingdoms apart, bring about his own death and thousands more, and put a welcome new king upon the Iron Throne.



The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King’s Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.



As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved-and half the realm besides.



Excerpt From: George R. R. Martin, Elio Garcia & Linda Antonsson. “The World of Ice & Fire.” Bantam, 2014-10-28. iBooks.

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Until Martin finishes his books and it is rewritten and re-released with the corrected and previously missing information, I don't see how we can truly trust the information.

Are you saying that you don't consider the World Book to be canon?

"The man with the plan...who didn't plan on dying"

XD

Sounds a bit like the man who said he didn´t need a helmet... And who could really have used a helmet

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Bless you, Ser Cold Fingers!



Ok, first...forever LOLing at "wild and boyish young thing" = Lyanna Stark





Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End. Eddard Stark, Brandon’s younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased. As for Robert Baratheon himself, some say he laughed at the prince’s gesture, claiming that Rhaegar had done no more than pay Lyanna her due … but those who knew him better say the young lord brooded on the insult, and that his heart hardened toward the Prince of Dragonstone from that day forth.




Ooooooh. So Ned wasn't happy but he doesn't think ill of Rhaegar in "present" day and even brings Lyanna her favorite flowers.

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Is any proof that Elia wasn't pretty, though? Arianne definitely is. Why wouldn't Elia have a delicate beauty? Also, Elia was a grown woman, and Lyanna had probably not yet completely grown on her looks.



I mean, the only descriptions we have of her come from Cersei and Jon, the most objective and less bitter people of the whole books, and Barristan who compared her with Ashara. But also, Jaime is handsome and when Cersei compares him with Rhaegar, he paled in comparison.


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Is any proof that Elia wasn't pretty, though? Arianne definitely is. Why wouldn't Elia have a delicate beauty? Also, Elia was a grown woman, and Lyanna had probably not yet completely grown on her looks.

I mean, the only descriptions we have of her come from Cersei and Jon, the most objective and less bitter people of the whole books, and Barristan who compared her with Ashara. But also, Jaime is handsome and when Cersei compares him with Rhaegar, he paled in comparison.

I think Elia was probably pretty, yes. But I think the Maester is downplaying Lyanna's beauty (a maid of surpassing loveliness--yes, ok. says her brother) for reasons.

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Are you saying that you don't consider the World Book to be canon?

In the case of R+L=J- no, I don't. The text obviously skirts around the issue and purposely misleads the reader in order to keep from giving anything important away.

Until Martin writes out the entire scenario in ASOIAF, then I won't consider anything the world book has to say on the subject as 'canon'.

There's quite a few other things in which it's not canon, either- including the Others and Giants. And Martin could easily retcon anything in the World Book if he felt it necessary to his story.

I'm certainly not going to take the world book over anything Martin has said at this point.

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For all of Cersei's lack of objectivity and demeaning other women's looks, the worst she had to say about Elia is "feeble", "black-eyed" and "flat-chested". To me, that speaks that Elia was quite beautiful.



Actually, the greatest reason readers have to think Elia wasn't beautiful is the fact that Rhaegar chose Lyanna over her. That's it. Since I am someone who can never be attracted by blonde hair and blue eyes, I recognize that it's very unfair to judge people's looks on the merits of them being attractive to someone or not.


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I think there would have to be some sort of shake-out in the "losing" territories. For example, the Starks would have to either "bend the knee" or be replaced. I think each area would have a representative, but some areas might have new leadership based on punishment toward the losers--kind of like the Boltons replacing Starks as wardens of the north.

But could Rhaegar make this demand? Even if we ignore Lyanna situation, there is still the matter that Aerys wanted Robert and Ned dead plus he killed important lords and their heirs. I think that Rhaegar wouldn't have power to replace Starks or Arryns. North - Rickard, Brandon and lord Glover were killed, all houses supported Ned. Only house that could betray Starks in this situation are Boltons but rest would stand behind Starks. In Vale it's almost the same but there were 2 Houses(later Corbray changed sides to rebels) who sided with Aerys. I think only in Riverlands and Stormlands he could changed leadership because they were more divided.

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I think Elia was probably pretty, yes. But I think the Maester is downplaying Lyanna's beauty (a maid of surpassing loveliness--yes, ok. says her brother) for reasons.

What reasons? Telling Robert "yeah, it's not like she was THAT hot, Rhaegar can keep her"? :lol:

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What reasons? Telling Robert "yeah, it's not like she was THAT hot, Rhaegar can keep her"? :lol:

More like Lannister reasons. You don't want to imply that Lyanna (the woman Rhaegar did "choose") was prettier than Cersei. Given that this Maester seems to be trying to please Tywin with his recounts, best not bring up the pretty Wolf Maid.

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What reasons? Telling Robert "yeah, it's not like she was THAT hot, Rhaegar can keep her"? :lol:

Yeah, this is what made me laugh XD

"Man, Elia was WAY hotter than her."

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Yeah LOL, how did he describe Joffrey?? I cant recall, but it was major bullshit whatever it was.



Can someone post it so we can see how biased this guy is towards the Baratheons.



something like 'golden haired heir to carry the baratheons into the future' or something very ironic and hilarious.


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