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Ygrain

[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2

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First we had the maester conspiracy ,after that we have the great Northern conspiracy now we have the most interesting conspiracy of all the Lyanna Stark conspiracy. You have Targaryens,Daynes ,Whents,Darry ,JonCon, Martells ,Mooton,Lonmouth for whatever reason was to kidnap a young girl.

I don't think all of Rhaegar's companions were in on it. JonCon doesn't seem to hint at it in his internal thoughts (though that could be coming of course).

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I don't think all of Rhaegar's companions were in on it. JonCon doesn't seem to hint at it in his internal thoughts (though that could be coming of course).

His train of though hasn't really gone in that direction, yes. That and Martin won't spoil us that yet. But for a guy who keeps dreaming every night of his pasts mistakes, it's odd that he never mentions what Rhaegar tried to do.

Although, that fits more with my theory that they weren't notified of the kidnapping, only something else.

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Besides Dayne and Whent, I'd say the most likely candidate to be in the know about Lyanna was Lonmouth given that he probably betrays Rhaegar at some point (fights for the other side).


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Besides Dayne and Whent, I'd say the most likely candidate to be in the know about Lyanna was Lonmouth given that he probably betrays Rhaegar at some point (fights for the other side).

Is this about the theory that Lem is Lonmouth? I thought part of that theory was that Richard had fought for Rhaegar until the end?

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Besides Dayne and Whent, I'd say the most likely candidate to be in the know about Lyanna was Lonmouth given that he probably betrays Rhaegar at some point (fights for the other side).

He's going to be the Pettigrew for Sirius Jon =(

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Is this about the theory that Lem is Lonmouth? I thought part of that theory was that Richard had fought for Rhaegar until the end?

Lem says he's Robert's man (something like that).

Either way, the theory could evolve.

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Lem says he's Robert's man (something like that).

Either way, the theory could evolve.

Wasn't the specific phrasing "We're King's men"? That could then be hinting towards Rhaegar's plot to overthrow Aerys?

I can remember from reading the Lem theory is that when Lem is speaking about how his two children were killed, the OP was suggesting that Lem was actually talking about Aegon and Rhaenys, Rhaegar's two children, who had been killed, not his own biological children.

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Is this about the theory that Lem is Lonmouth? I thought part of that theory was that Richard had fought for Rhaegar until the end?

I don't think we know for sure, but going with Lady Gwyn's theory, he chose Robert

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And apparently it posted a third time.

Obviously you are too trigger happy ;)

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Ok I just received my book like one hour ago. I missed all the fun (f*ck Amazon !) ! :frown5:


Well, I had already spoiled myself most of RR but I'm slowing going through it. So I just read The Long Night part and I wondered if Rhaegar could have read the informations gathered here elsewhere (well in Wonders Made By Man by Lomas Longstrider apparently) especially that part :




According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne's many children - lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River - to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day.

.


Could it be associated with the song of ice and fire ? Dornish people are the descendants of the Rhoynars right ? Maybe that's why Rhaegar thought that Aegon was TPTWP among other things.


This thread is going way too fast !



Edit: The Yi Ti legend with the woman with a monkey tail -> :rofl:



(I'm really disappointed by the Rhaegar picture. A book full of hot Targs and we only get this for Rhaegar ?!)



Edit 2: Has it already been discussed ?


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Ok I just received my book like one hour ago. I missed all the fun (f*ck Amazon !) ! :frown5:

Well, I had already spoiled myself most of RR but I'm slowing going through it. So I just read The Long Night part and I wondered if Rhaegar could have read the informations gathered here elsewhere (well in Wonders Made By Man by Lomas Longstrider apparently) especially that part :

.

Could it be associated with the song of ice and fire ? Dornish people are the descendants of the Rhoynars right ? Maybe that's why Rhaegar thought that Aegon was TPTWP among other things.

This thread is going way too fast !

Edit: The Yi Ti legend with the woman with a monkey tail -> :rofl:

(I'm really disappointed by the Rhaegar picture. A book full of hot Targs and we only get this for Rhaegar ?!)

I'm sure Rhaegar read everything that the Maester is pulling from, so maybe that played into it. Though his ideas about a song of ice and fire aren't mentioned (thus far, still working my way through the whole book). Though, R would know--beyond a shadow of a doubt for me--about the Pact of Ice and Fire. And if that part of the book didn't sit up and give a big cheery HELLO to you....

Jorah still loves you. :D

All that matters, really. :)

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I think it's the first great council that's the important one, because it was

a. called while the king was still alive, but no longer trusted to be in a fit mental state to decide on the succession, and

b. held at Harrenhal.

My guess is that the plan was to use the council to remove Aerys' ability to threaten to disinherit the Rheagar>Aegon line in favour of Viserys as a power play. Aerys wouldn't have been removed from the throne, but would have it made clear to him that he would be facing a united resistance unless he was willing to become a figurehead king with Rhaegar and Tywin as Hand doing most of the actual ruling (note that Tywin comes into the rebellion when Rhaegar is dead).

Yes, I have been going back and forth in my own mind about exactly what Rhaegar was trying to accomplish at HH. I have always been a bit uncomfortable with the notion that Rhaegar thought that a GC was going to unseat Aerys make Rhaegar king. While a possible plan by Rhaegar, the statement to Jaime that thing "would change" when Rhaegar returned from the Trident seemed to be a statement of a plan a bit more complex than merely deposing Aerys in favor of Rhaegar. Something along the lines of what you have outlined--some sort of constrain on Aerys's power--seems more plausible. The precise details, of course, are difficult to guess but I think you are on the right track.

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I'm sure Rhaegar read everything that the Maester is pulling from, so maybe that played into it. Though his ideas about a song of ice and fire aren't mentioned (thus far, still working my way through the whole book). Though, R would know--beyond a shadow of a doubt for me--about the Pact of Ice and Fire. And if that part of the book didn't sit up and give a big cheery HELLO to you....

It did actually but I haven't reached that part yet, just got it spoiled. I was so excited !

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I'm sure Rhaegar read everything that the Maester is pulling from, so maybe that played into it. Though his ideas about a song of ice and fire aren't mentioned (thus far, still working my way through the whole book). Though, R would know--beyond a shadow of a doubt for me--about the Pact of Ice and Fire. And if that part of the book didn't sit up and give a big cheery HELLO to you....

So--are we looking smarter now regarding whether Rhaegar concluded that his child with Lyanna would be A Song of Ice and Fire, personified? :cheers:

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Perhaps Aerys already feared that Whent and Dayne were in the same team as Rhaegar, and he feared that keeping them close would only give Rhaegar an oppertunity to spy on him? In that case, he placed Dayne and Whent with Rhaegar, chosing the lesser of two evils.

Yeah, I'm honestly confused by that.

Selmy says:

"I am not made for this. Plots, ploys, whispers, lies secrets within secrets, and somehow I have become a part of them."

I took from that Selmy disapproved of Dayne and Whents involvement in whatever Rhaegar was planning, and had Rhaegar trusted him instead, he would have advised him otherwise.

And Hightower just seemed bound and trapped by his situation, unable to be where he thought they should have been so Aerys could keep his throne. :dunno:

I'm sure that half of westeros is related, but my point was Jon's descent from every region on the map and from their kingly lines not minor houses that was the point I was trying to make. Also that Jon is a product of his different bloodlines whether he knows it or not. example that freakish strength of his. Well he is descent from the Umbers who are said to be descent from Giants an given his smaller or slight statue that puts his strengh into perspective. Look at the scene where he's fighting the wildlings, taking an arrow though the thigh only to mount a horse no saddle with sword in hand. Not saying that he's not a really good rider and horseman I'm just pointing out that he's descent from the Ryswells and Brackens both houses known for their horsemen. So that's what I meant when I was talking about his bloodlines.

How bout looking at the map. The tower of Joy is located at the top of the Prince's Pass. There is no way that with Nightsong at the bottom of those mountains and in Robert's territory, Manwood, Skyreach(the seat for the Prince's Pass lord) Starfell, and High Hermitage. There is no way Ned and Howland Reed get from the Tower to Starfell unnoticed. There is no way that the Princess and Doran don't at least know that Lyanna is in the Tower. There is no way that those lords that have seats in the Pass doesn't have some kind of contact with the Tower it's just impossible to even imagine let alone think that they didn't know that she was there, pregnat and gave birth to a boy(if jon is Rheagar's) there is just no way. There Ned's story or dream doesn't make sense. Why tear down the tower in enemy territory, with just 2 people and a newborn and the closets wetnurse is Manwood or Skyreach but as Ned just killed the Sword of the morning I don't think he can turn to them for help and Starfell isn't that close its at least 2 day journey and High Hermitage. Bran and his party were seen and known about from the moment they left the cyrpts of Winterfell and started their way North, Don't you think the same could be said about Ned and Howland? Cat and her party though the mountains of the Vale couldn't stop and cover their dead with carrion like Cat wanted because they were in enemey territory and didn't have the time or men to do so. So I'm to believe the Ned and howland in an ever worse situation, a new born king, 3 dead KG one the beloved Sword of the Morning the other the former LC of the KG and a Hightower to boot, while lastly there was Whent and then their own dead northerns. Ned has time to tear down the tower, construct the carrions, and get Jon to a wet nurse before he starves and it's just him and Howland Reed. Ned by himself if captured would have fetched a handsome ransom, lord of WF, best friend of the King and Hand. Come on he's a grand prize and no one touched him and he made it north with his life. Something isn't right and the fact that I'm one of the few that even admits it there something wrong with this picture.

Sometimes it's not about hard cold facts or evidence, its call common sense and logic. group a of character are set a similar situation and can't do what group b did and they are in a worse situation than group a them something isn't right and maybe one should take a closer look. GRRM doesn't have to come right and say that what happen at that Tower is not been told in full but what has been told has been distorted or retold in a way that leaves alot of room for doubt of even questions bout what is known! PPL were calling Rheanyra's children bastards. Up until their descriptions in Rogue Prince and the little slip about the boy's eggs possibly not hatching would give this thought crediblity. especially given how her other two sons turned out in the same situation father being of targ blood and the boys both look the part. So something is right about the older three boys dragonriders or not. So what's someone to assume that they were bastards. IF given their descriptions first most would have been doubtful to begin with but because in the queen and princess were are lead to believe that the hatred and dislike between the mothers lead to this particular part of political progranda.

Sometimes its not about looking at the problem as sum, but a total of its parts. And given several of situation that happened in the book, should call into question everything that one knows about the Tower and the events surrounding said tower and lyanna's time in dorne. Especially if Lyanna was a hostage to Dorne for the Martells good behavior. note the tower in the care of Lords of the princes's pass with Skyreach one castle away, with a buffer between Sunspear and the Tower called Yronwood territory and to the back of the tower are the 2 branches of house Dayne. So really your tying to tell me that Rheagar wasn't taking precausion with LYanna and her safety.

Again, I think it goes back to what kind of story GRRM is telling.

(Believe me, I'm not a romantic as my husband will tell you. I would choose "Iron Man" over Julia Roberts any day).

Prophesy/ magic and politics play a role, but GRRM goes to great lengths to not over-do it, and uses them essentially as cautionary factors in the role of the human experience.

The book is filled with complicated characters that live more in a grey world than black and white, good and evil. There are "bad" characters that do evolve and have their moments of grace, as we see with Jaime as he is now on his "legacy tour," and we see "good" character who fall from grace, and sometimes fatally so.

"The things we do for love."

It is not inconsistent for Rhaegar to be intelligent, determined, "does all things well," dutiful, and still knight a man like the Mountain, or not love his wife, though maybe he tried.

This from Selmy in regards to Dany:

...." She will weep and tear her hair and curse the Yunkai's. Not us. No blood on our hands. You can comfort . Tell her some tale of old days, she likes those. Poor Daario, her brave captain.... she will never forget him no....but better for us if he is dead, yes? Better for Daenerys too."

(I always wondered if some didn't think the same of Rhaegar and Lyanna, better that Lyanna might have died. Better for Rhaegar in the long run, and better for the kingdom).

Selmy:

"Better for Daenerys, and better for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain. but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her Bittersteel and Bloodraven both loved Shiera Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled. The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenn of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, , and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses. All three of the sons of the fifth Aegon had wed for love, in defiance of their fathers wishes. And because that unlikely monarch had himself followed his heart when he chose his queen, he allowed his sons to have their way, making bitter enemies where he might have had fast friends. Treason and turmoil followed, as night follows day, ending at Summerhall in sorcery, fire and grief."

"Her love for Daario is poison," (R+L)?, "A slower poison than the locusts, but in the end as deadly......" - p.875 aDwD.

And...

" Prince Quentyn was listening intently, at least." That one is his father's son. "Short and stocky, plain-faced, he seemed a decent lad, sober, sensible, dutiful...but not the sort to make a young girls heart beat faster. And Daenerys Targaryen, whatever else she might be, was still a young girl, as she herself would claim when it pleased her to play the innocent. Like all good queens she put her people first- else she would never have wed Hizdhar zo Loraq- but the girl in her still yearned for poetry, passion, and laughter. She wants fire, and Dorne sent her mud."- p.785 aDwD.

I think both prophesy and politics factored into Rhaegars life, and that Harrenhal was the origin of something, but I speculate that "something" fell to the wayside when he met Lyanna, (she was a catalyst one way or the other), hence "if onlys" and "roads not taken."

And we will see it again.

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So--are we looking smarter now regarding whether Rhaegar concluded that his child with Lyanna would be A Song of Ice and Fire, personified? :cheers:

Yes. Yes we are.

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