Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ygrain

[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags v.2

Recommended Posts

What reasons? Telling Robert "yeah, it's not like she was THAT hot, Rhaegar can keep her"? :lol:

And when he talked about Robert and Cersei getting married he called Cersei the most beautiful woman in the world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And when he talked about Robert and Cersei getting married he called Cersei the most beautiful woman in the world.

LOL, yep, I checked that. The book appeals more to the Lannisters than the Baratheons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Totally forgot about Lewyn. Thanks.

I know in the previous thread someone (PrettyPig?) was speculating that Doran Martell might have been the financial backer at HH, or maybe gone in half way with Rhaegar.

That's definitely a possibility, but, wouldn't be odd that Rhaegar would cause a conflict with the only main Lord who was backing him up and marrying/eloping someone else?

But let's put that aside for a moment :lol:

Now, whether Doran was involved in the Tourney or not, I'm sure they counted on him and Dorne, and Lewyin was helping on that. So,

In Dorne, he had the Martells and the Daynes.

In the Riverlands, the Whents, Mootons and I assume, the Darrys (yes, I'm sure that's the place "not ten miles from HH" he took his men with)

In the Stormlands, the Lonmouths and Conningtons (also, Jon mentioned his own friends hadn't forgotten Rhaegar, which probably mean more Lords were involved).

In the Reach, if the KG was involved, the Hightowers?

No small houses at all.

Yeah, that was me. I think Rhaegar was absolutely working something out with Dorne. I also think that the plan he worked out left things locked up enough that Rhae Rhae and Elia could enjoy something of an open marriage (mutual) until it was more politically convenient to dissolve it completely, while still giving Dorne a big hand in the realm. There wouldn't need to be any conflict because everyone would win.

On the other hand, I'm starting to believe that there was more going on with the Southron alliance than we know, and that Rhaegar was actually betrayed. Still working on this theory though! Lots of new info to work in. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LOL, yep, I checked that. The book appeals more to the Lannisters than the Baratheons.

Yep, I almost "cut a bitch" with the biased piece we got on how Elia and her babies were murdered, I literally saw red.

I hate the Lannisters even more after this if that was possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the other hand, I'm starting to believe that there was more going on with the Southron alliance than we know, and that Rhaegar was actually betrayed. Still working on this theory though! Lots of new info to work in. :)

Lonmouth, maybe?

ETA: While all of Rhaegar's friends are mentioned in books and in new book, and where either killed or exiled, Lonmouth is nowhere to be found during the Rebellion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lonmouth, maybe?

No, not betrayed in the sense of "whoops, I slipped some info"....more like someone playing the game of thrones far more skillfully than Rhaegar. I don't think it was as much telling as it was outright lying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, not betrayed in the sense of "whoops, I slipped some info"....more like someone playing the game of thrones far more skillfully than Rhaegar. I don't think it was as much telling as it was outright lying.

Could be. But so far, Aerys' men weren't particularly smart. Varys, could be a chance, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But could Rhaegar make this demand? Even if we ignore Lyanna situation, there is still the matter that Aerys wanted Robert and Ned dead plus he killed important lords and their heirs. I think that Rhaegar wouldn't have power to replace Starks or Arryns. North - Rickard, Brandon and lord Glover were killed, all houses supported Ned. Only house that could betray Starks in this situation are Boltons but rest would stand behind Starks. In Vale it's almost the same but there were 2 Houses(later Corbray changed sides to rebels) who sided with Aerys. I think only in Riverlands and Stormlands he could changed leadership because they were more divided.

I am suggesting that the restructuring might be done by Aerys or by Aerys with Rhaegar or by Aerys and the small council before Rhaegar would have a chance to call a GC. Order would have to be restored in the kingdom--and that means re-establishing the feudal order loyal to the kingdom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lonmouth, maybe?

ETA: While all of Rhaegar's friends are mentioned in books and in new book, and where either killed or exiled, Lonmouth is nowhere to be found during the Rebellion.

If Rhaegar was betrayed then Lonmouth would be my guess. According to Lady Gwyn's theory, he's still running around as Lemoncloak (and didn't he fight FOR Robert?)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Rhaegar was betrayed then Lonmouth would be my guess. According to Lady Gwyn's theory, he's still running around as Lemoncloak (and didn't he fight FOR Robert?)

Argh... maybe he was the one who told Brandon?

I mean, even if he didn't meant to betray him, it's a bit suspicious that from all of the guys who belonged to R's clique and that actually participated in the Rebellion, he's not mentioned and we don't know his fate. Maybe he feels guilty that some of his actions caused the dead of his friends and Prince? Or he regretted to have joined Robert instead?

Or he was a mole and he's ashamed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First, thanks for the quotes!



There is one thing that I find very peculiar. In the series proper, we know only that Merryweather and Chelstead were Hands and it didn't go well for them, but we never hear that they were anti-Rhaegar; all the whispers against Rhaegar are ascribed to Varys. In TWOAIF, however, it looks as if Varys sort of stood aside why the others did the whispering. Of course it could have been both, or Varys as the maaster of whisperers eventually got the flak for something he didn't do, but the discrepancy between the accounts is rather striking. Why would Barristan or Jaime emphasize Varys' role and not mention the other whisperers? And if the other whisperers didn't play any major part, why is Varys' role downplayed? Now, if our good Yandel panders so much to the Lannisters, could it be that he doesn't dare to speak against Varys, either?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First, thanks for the quotes!

There is one thing that I find very peculiar. In the series proper, we know only that Merryweather and Chelstead were Hands and it didn't go well for them, but we never hear that they were anti-Rhaegar; all the whispers against Rhaegar are ascribed to Varys. In TWOAIF, however, it looks as if Varys sort of stood aside why the others did the whispering. Of course it could have been both, or Varys as the maaster of whisperers eventually got the flak for something he didn't do, but the discrepancy between the accounts is rather striking. Why would Barristan or Jaime emphasize Varys' role and not mention the other whisperers? And if the other whisperers didn't play any major part, why is Varys' role downplayed? Now, if our good Yandel panders so much to the Lannisters, could it be that he doesn't dare to speak against Varys, either?

Merryweather wasn't against Rhaegar. IICR, he advice Aerys not to cancel the Tourney. He apparently kissed Aerys' ass often, but that's not the same as saying that he was against Rhaegar. The book suggested he and Pycelle (obviously...) tried to kept the peace. It's mentioned that Varys had the King's trust, but it's not mentioned that he was against Rhaegar either.

Why I wonder is why Aerys chose a friend of R as a Hand after Merryweather left instead of one of his own men? It would make sense that he chose Chelsted and not Connington. Or Lucerys Velaryon master of ships and probably with some experience in commanding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ygrain,



could be. But I doubt it. Yandel's main source is Pycelle, and Pycelle does not like Varys all that much. And it would not really cause any trouble or bad light if Varys was fueling the conflict between Aerys and Rhaegar since the Targaryens are gone.



That Tywin quote from Duskendale was known to Aerys long before Varys came to KL, so we can now be sure that Varys did not cause the rift between father and son.



And I still find it not unlikely that Varys convincing Aerys (if he did that) to go to Harrenhal actually did take some tension out of the Rhaegar-Aerys conflict rather leading to escalation.



Whatever Varys did during the reign of the late Aerys, he may have been forced to incriminate people because there were actual plots and conspiracies, as well as keep Aerys happy to remain alive. Considering Aerys' changeable nature, Varys could not be really sure that Aerys would not suddenly decide to blame the eunuch for everything during a court session or a council meeting. His little birds could not have helped him predict Aerys' behavior. Not to mention that he does not have any spies in Maegor's anyway.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more thing that strikes me as weird: Brandon's overreaction to the crowning. Yeah, scandalous, I get it - but to challenge the Crown Prince for it? Or what is meant by "confront"? Is it just me, or is this a bit too wild even for the wild wolf?



On the other hand, this ballistic reaction to " a slight upon his sister’s honor" pretty much mirrors Brandon's act at KL. I think we can now safely assume that he yelled for Rhaegar to come out and die not because he was scared witless by the supposed kidnapping and rape but because of the stain on Lyanna's honour and thus Stark honour in general.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First, thanks for the quotes!

There is one thing that I find very peculiar. In the series proper, we know only that Merryweather and Chelstead were Hands and it didn't go well for them, but we never hear that they were anti-Rhaegar; all the whispers against Rhaegar are ascribed to Varys. In TWOAIF, however, it looks as if Varys sort of stood aside why the others did the whispering. Of course it could have been both, or Varys as the maaster of whisperers eventually got the flak for something he didn't do, but the discrepancy between the accounts is rather striking. Why would Barristan or Jaime emphasize Varys' role and not mention the other whisperers? And if the other whisperers didn't play any major part, why is Varys' role downplayed? Now, if our good Yandel panders so much to the Lannisters, could it be that he doesn't dare to speak against Varys, either?

Well, Varys is a clever guy, so planting seeds and letting others sow would be right up his alley. Also, at the time, Varys and Tywin really had common cause - to see Targ butt off the throne - so perhaps Varys and Tywin were closer than believed. (I personally think Varys' mistrust of Tywin is a ruse, as ASOIAF shows Varys playing whatever card will get him the results he needs.) Public accounts might point fingers at Merryweather and Chelstead as the sources because that's how it's intended to be portrayed, but Barristan and Jaime, being KG, would be closer to the King to know who is truly feeding the information.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more thing that strikes me as weird: Brandon's overreaction to the crowning. Yeah, scandalous, I get it - but to challenge the Crown Prince for it? Or what is meant by "confront"? Is it just me, or is this a bit too wild even for the wild wolf?

On the other hand, this ballistic reaction to "a slight upon his sister’s honor" pretty much mirrors Brandon's act at KL. I think we can now safely assume that he yelled for Rhaegar to come out and die not because he was scared witless by the supposed kidnapping and rape but because of the stain on Lyanna's honour and thus Stark honour in general.

I think this part is very true.

And very ironic considering how much of a womanizer Brandon was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Merryweather wasn't against Rhaegar. IICR, he advice Aerys not to cancel the Tourney. He apparently kissed Aerys' ass often, but that's not the same as saying that he was against Rhaegar. The book suggested he and Pycelle (obviously...) tried to kept the peace. It's mentioned that Varys had the King's trust, but it's not mentioned that he was against Rhaegar either.

Why I wonder is why Aerys chose a friend of R as a Hand after Merryweather left instead of one of his own men? It would make sense that he chose Chelsted and not Connington. Or Lucerys Velaryon master of ships and probably with some experience in commanding.

I sort of lumped Merryweather along with the others because except Chelstead, we never really hear about any prominent nobles from that time - now, if there really was such a strong anti-Rhaegar faction and is to be revealed to play some important role in the outbreak of the Rebellion, we should have heard by now, but we haven't.

Ygrain,

could be. But I doubt it. Yandel's main source is Pycelle, and Pycelle does not like Varys all that much. And it would not really cause any trouble or bad light if Varys was fueling the conflict between Aerys and Rhaegar since the Targaryens are gone.

That Tywin quote from Duskendale was known to Aerys long before Varys came to KL, so we can now be sure that Varys did not cause the rift between father and son.

And I still find it not unlikely that Varys convincing Aerys (if he did that) to go to Harrenhal actually did take some tension out of the Rhaegar-Aerys conflict rather leading to escalation.

Whatever Varys did during the reign of the late Aerys, he may have been forced to incriminate people because there were actual plots and conspiracies, as well as keep Aerys happy to remain alive. Considering Aerys' changeable nature, Varys could not be really sure that Aerys would not suddenly decide to blame the eunuch for everything during a court session or a council meeting. His little birds could not have helped him predict Aerys' behavior. Not to mention that he does not have any spies in Maegor's anyway.

Then, why is the information not there? Why does this discrepancy exist? Why is the rift blamed on people we basically never heard about but Varys' role is still unknown?

Do we have a date when Varys came to KL? Or is there a quote? And why do you think that Varys had no spies in Maegor's?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, Varys is a clever guy, so planting seeds and letting others sow would be right up his alley. Also, at the time, Varys and Tywin really had common cause - to see Targ butt off the throne - so perhaps Varys and Tywin were closer than believed. (I personally think Varys' mistrust of Tywin is a ruse, as ASOIAF shows Varys playing whatever card will get him the results he needs.) Public accounts might point fingers at Merryweather and Chelstead as the sources because that's how it's intended to be portrayed, but Barristan and Jaime, being KG, would be closer to the King to know who is truly feeding the information.

That's the conclusion I'm leaning towards, as well. If Yandell's main source is Pycelle, he cannot know what was said in Pycelle's absence - but the KG were there the whole time.

I think this part is very true.

And very ironic considering how much of a womanizer Brandon was.

Aye. He was lucky that Barbrey didn't have an elder brother like that. - But, I am glad to have my theory sor of confirmed :B

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×