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[spoiler TWoIaF] Of the Breeding of Races (Dragons & Man)


Lord Varys

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One of the more controversial issues of this book is the establishment of various human races that cannot interbreed with each other and produce fertile offspring.



At least according to opinion of Maester Yandel. He states this without given any sources whatsoever.



The races set apart from normal humanity are the Ibbenese and the Brindled Men of Sothoryos. The Sothoryi cannot even conceive children with other men at all (apart from monstrosities), whereas the Ibbenese and the other humans only produce sterile children like mules or monstrosities.



Is this his racism talking or is this actually the case? If it is the case, then it hints at a sort of magical change in various human races causing difficulties for them to interbreed rather than a sort of differentiation that is caused only by evolution (i.e. various human races may have different non-human ancestors - dragons, Deep Ones, giants, Children of the Forest, etc.).



We also learn that the former Ghiscari colony of Gorgai, later conquered and renamed Gogossos, became one of the vilest penal colonies of the Freehold, where the sorcerers bred inhuman children, using human women and animals. Gogossos was called the Tenth Free City during the Century of Blood until the Red Death swept the Basilisk Isles clean.Something similar happens in Norvos, where one particular entertainment thing includes the mating between human women and bears (although there seems to be no magic involved).



There is also talk that the dragonlords themselves had actual dragon blood. Is that a more likely possibility now with this knowledge about the (alleged) magical experiments in Gogossos?



It is also hinted at that that Valyrian dragons may have been a creation out of firewyrms and the non-firebreathing wyverns from Wyvern Point. If the Valyrian sorcerers could crossbreed humans and animals, they may also have been able to create (or recreate) dragons (if they had been extinct at that point).



Any thoughts on that. Oh, and the Faceless Men did cause the Doom. It's obvious.


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One of the more controversial issues of this book is the establishment of various human races that cannot interbreed with each other and produce fertile offspring.

At least according to opinion of Maester Yandel. He states this without given any sources whatsoever.

The races set apart from normal humanity are the Ibbenese and the Brindled Men of Sothoryos. The Sothoryi cannot even conceive children with other men at all (apart from monstrosities), whereas the Ibbenese and the other humans only produce sterile children like mules or monstrosities.

Is this his racism talking or is this actually the case? If it is the case, then it hints at a sort of magical change in various human races causing difficulties for them to interbreed rather than a sort of differentiation that is caused only by evolution (i.e. various human races may have different non-human ancestors - dragons, Deep Ones, giants, Children of the Forest, etc.).

We also learn that the former Ghiscari colony of Gorgai, later conquered and renamed Gogossos, became one of the vilest penal colonies of the Freehold, where the sorcerers bred inhuman children, using human women and animals. Gogossos was called the Tenth Free City during the Century of Blood until the Red Death swept the Basilisk Isles clean.Something similar happens in Norvos, where one particular entertainment thing includes the mating between human women and bears (although there seems to be no magic involved).

There is also talk that the dragonlords themselves had actual dragon blood. Is that a more likely possibility now with this knowledge about the (alleged) magical experiments in Gogossos?

It is also hinted at that that Valyrian dragons may have been a creation out of firewyrms and the non-firebreathing wyverns from Wyvern Point. If the Valyrian sorcerers could crossbreed humans and animals, they may also have been able to create (or recreate) dragons (if they had been extinct at that point).

Any thoughts on that. Oh, and the Faceless Men did cause the Doom. It's obvious.

Lord Varys

I was the one who speculated yesterday about dragons possibly being the result of a magical crossbreeding between wyverns and firewyrms. Are you basing your speculation on that post of mine, or are there actually hints in the World Book to this effect?

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There is. I read your thoughts on that, and did not realize that you did not have a copy. It is explicitly stated in the book that there are theories that wyverns - which still exist and are discussed in detail - may have been used to create dragons. I don't remember off hand that the firewyrms are mentioned, too, but naturally they would have been the other 'breeding party', considering that wyverns cannot breathe fire whereas firewyrms can.



Anyway, great catch.



Opposing voice argue that the dragon bones in Westeros predate the Valyrian dragons. But then, are wyvern bones that much different from dragon bones? That is not discussed...


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There is. I read your thoughts on that, and did not realize that you did not have a copy. It is explicitly stated in the book that there are theories that wyverns - which still exist and are discussed in detail - may have been used to create dragons. I don't remember off hand that the firewyrms are mentioned, too, but naturally they would have been the other 'breeding party', considering that wyverns cannot breathe fire whereas firewyrms can.

Anyway, great catch.

Opposing voice argue that the dragon bones in Westeros predate the Valyrian dragons. But then, are wyvern bones that much different from dragon bones? That is not discussed...

Thanks for that!

I must point out that my theory was never that the Valyrians were the ones who conducted this breeding project. It would have been this mysterious race from Ashai. It would have been their dragons that spread all across the world, long before the Valyrians discovered dragons in the Fourteen Fires. Probably before the Long Night, even.

That would explain the ancient dragonbones all across the world from well before the birth of the Valyrian civilization. My contention is that the primitive Valyrians then discovered a remnant colony of these ancient dragons, nesting in the Fourteen Fires, many thousands of years later, (about 5000 years ago).

EDIT

Also note the title of Septon Barth's tome: Dragons, Wyrms and Wyverns: Their Unnatural History. Thus linking these three creatures to one another, and to some kind of unnatural origin. Meaning a magical breeding project in my theory.

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Any thoughts on that. Oh, and the Faceless Men did cause the Doom. It's obvious.

Did I miss any particular smoking gun?

One of the more controversial issues of this book is the establishment of various human races that cannot interbreed with each other and produce fertile offspring.

At least according to opinion of Maester Yandel. He states this without given any sources whatsoever.

The races set apart from normal humanity are the Ibbenese and the Brindled Men of Sothoryos. The Sothoryi cannot even conceive children with other men at all (apart from monstrosities), whereas the Ibbenese and the other humans only produce sterile children like mules or monstrosities.

This at least is not true. Brown Ben Plumm's grandmother was half-ibbenese. The book also seems to speculate that the Skagosi have a connection with the Ibbenese. They must have interbreed with other northerners at one point or another.

EDIT: My own particular theory about the men from Ib was that they are the Planetos equivalent to our Neanderthals. I held this opinion before TWOIAF and I have seen nothing that points to something else. We know Neanderthals were able to interbreed with regular homo sapiens sapiens (just like Denisovans and perhaps others), so I think the same is true for these Ibbenese

EDIT2: The Brindled men however, they don't strike me as fully human, but again this might be because of the exagerated description

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Did I miss any particular smoking gun?

I think Lord Varys mentioned yesterday that the Faceless Men apparently assassinated the sorcerors that were responsible for maintaining the spells that kept the Fourteen Fires under control (possibly to allow the Valyrians to delve deeper into the earth for their gold). When the spells ceased being maintained, the whole peninsula erupted.

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You have to piece it together:



1. There is the story of the Unmasking of Braavos, before that, the Sealord has sent envoys from the Iron Bank (who is rumored to use assassins to remove those princes and kings she can't replace - yes, Stannis, Arya is going to take out your enemies) to treat with Valyria and make way for the coming Unmasking. They recompense the descendants of the ship owners and all (although not for the slaves themselves). An ideal situation for the Faceless Men to infiltrate Valyria itself.



2. The History of Doom considers the possibility (Septon Barth, I believe) that the Lords Freeholder killed and assassinated too many of those sorcerers who took charge of maintaining the spells that controlled the Fourteen Flames. The hidden Faceless Men did either just that, or more likely, sacrificed themselves and did the actual breaking of the spells. That could also explain the perfect timing...


The real news there is that such spells existed. When they broke all at once the Doom struck, in essence a 'natural magical event', comparable to the eruption of Mount Doom (there you go) in LotR after the Ruling Ring is destroyed (Sauron's power over the volcano was bound in the Ring, too, and upon its destruction it was 'free' again).



No outright confirmation but you can put the pieces together.



Not all dragonlords were killed though. Some Archons in Lys and Tyrosh survived, only to be killed by rioters shortly thereafter. A Valyrian dragonlord named Aurion visited Qohor during the Doom, declared himself Emperor of Valyria, and assembled an 30,000 men strong Qohorik army, and marched to Valyria to reclaim it. Neither he nor his army were ever seen again.


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I think Lord Varys mentioned yesterday that the Faceless Men apparently assassinated the sorcerors that were responsible for maintaining the spells that kept the Fourteen Fires under control (possibly to allow the Valyrians to delve deeper into the earth for their gold). When the spells ceased being maintained, the whole peninsula erupted.

You have to piece it together:

1. There is the story of the Unmasking of Braavos, before that, the Sealord has sent envoys from the Iron Bank (who is rumored to use assassins to remove those princes and kings she can't replace - yes, Stannis, Arya is going to take out your enemies) to treat with Valyria and make way for the coming Unmasking. They recompense the descendants of the ship owners and all (although not for the slaves themselves). An ideal situation for the Faceless Men to infiltrate Valyria itself.

2. The History of Doom considers the possibility (Septon Barth, I believe) that the Lords Freeholder killed and assassinated too many of those sorcerers who took charge of maintaining the spells that controlled the Fourteen Flames. The real news there is that such spells existed. When they broke all at once the Doom struck, in essence a 'natural magical event', comparable to the eruption of Mount Doom (there you go) in LotR after the Ruling Ring is destroyed (Sauron's power over the volcano was bound in the Ring, too, and upon its destruction it was 'free' again).

No outright confirmation but you can put the pieces together.

Seems indeed highly likely. I remember two, but I hadn't connected it with one. Now the question is, was this a play made by the FM alone or were all Braavosi factions okay with this.

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Yandel mentions in the section on the North that crannogmen may have bred with CotF. But he's not sure


A small, sly people (some say they are small in stature because they intermarried with the children of the forest, but more likely it results from inadequate nourishment,....

No fertility problems are mentioned, undoubtedly because Yandel didn't believe any unions took place.

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yes, Stannis, Arya is going to take out your enemies

As cool as that would be I can't see it happening. Given their rules about not killing people you know, would they send the Westerosi to kill important well known people in Westeros? She definitely knows Tommen and Cersei. Also not sure they would send a relatively new recruit on such an important mission.

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I can't believe people argued so strongly against Targ's having special blood, when it's been so obvious for so long.

Glad we're now thinking about how this happened.

At last you show yourself! :p

Now, which page did you see at LonCon? :)

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At last you show yourself! :P

Now, which page did you see at LonCon? :)

Hey, oh I saw the Bloodraven stuff...

i think i mentioned something everyone not Veltigar got wrong - this was Maekar imprisoning Bloodraven (which was considered canon by just about everyone), and the revelation BR did what he did to get sent to the Wall was what took me by surprise.

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Hey, oh I saw the Bloodraven stuff...

i think i mentioned something everyone got wrong - this was Maekar imprisoning Bloodraven (which was considered canon by just about everyone), and the revelation BR did what he did to get sent to the Wall was what took me by surprise.

Well, not everyone :p

Given the new info, isn't it more likely that Egg threw BR into the joint, possibly because BR did some illegal things to get Egg on the IT? You know, like trying (perhaps succeeding) to assassinate other candidates or killing a major lord who kept pushing for say Aerion's son or Daeron's daughter. If BR had a vision of Egg's importance or if he thought that only Egg could keep the Realms united, he would be prepared to do some pretty fucked up things I imagine.

Of course I hadn't considered that the other candidate could have been a BF.

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