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[TWOIAF Spoilers] Dothraki Discussion


Mithras

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The fall of Mardosh finally awakened the remaining Sarnori kings to the depth of their peril. Putting aside their own quarrels and rivalries at last, the Tall Men gathered from up and down the Sarne, assembling a great army beneath the walls of Sarnath, intent on breaking the power of the khals for good and all. Led by Mazor Alexi, last of the High Kings, they struck out boldly to the east. In the tall grass halfway between Sarnath and the ruins of Kasath, they met the assembled power of four khalasars on what forever after was known as the Field of Crows.



Khal Haro, Khal Qano, Khal Loso (the Lame), and Khal Zhako commanded almost eighty thousand horsemen between them, we are told. The great host of the High King of Sarnor was led by six thousand scythed chariots, with ten thousand armored riders behind them, and another ten thousand light horsemen (many of them women) on the flanks. Behind them marched the Sarnori foot, close to a hundred thousand spearmen and slingers, giving the Tall Men a great advantage in numbers. On this all chroniclers agree.



As battle was joined, the Sarnori chariots threatened to carry all before them. Their earth-shattering advance smashed through the center of the Dothraki horde, the spinning blades on the wheels of their chariots slicing through the legs of the Dothraki horses. When Khal Haro himself went down before them, cut to pieces and trampled, his khalasar broke and fled . As the chariots thundered after the fleeing horsemen, the High King and his armored riders plunged in after them, followed by the Sarnori foot, waving their spears and screaming victory.



Their elation was short-lived. The rout was feigned. When they had drawn the Tall Men deep into the trap, the fleeing Dothraki turned suddenly and unleashed a storm of arrows from their great bows. The khalasars of Khal Qano and Khal Zhako swept in from north and south, while Loso the Lame and his screamers circled round and attacked the Sarnori from the rear, cutting off their retreat. Completely encircled, the High King and his mighty host were cut to pieces. Some say a hundred thousand men died that day, amongst them Mazor Alexi, six lesser kings, and more than threescore lords and heroes . As the crows feasted on their corpses, the riders of the khalasars walked amongst the dead and squabbled over their valuables.



Martin, George R.R.; Garcia, Elio; Antonsson, Linda (2014-10-28). The World of Ice & Fire: The Untold History of Westeros and the Game of Thrones (A Song of Ice and Fire) (Kindle Locations 8157-8177). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.



In short;



80k unarmored Dothraki screamers > 6k scythed chariots + 10k armored riders + 10k light horsemen + 100k spearmen and slingers



The feigned rout tactic worked miracles.


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This basically confirms that the Dothraki might be able to take on Westrosi armies in pitched battle and that Unsullied are super soldiers. Its unrealistic, but this is a fantasy after all.

I wouldn't label it as unrealistic because it's fantasy. It would be more a case of "the author wants it because plot". Wouldn't be the first time a writer makes an even smaller version of David defeats Goliat, but in this case, the Dothraki aren't exactly Davids.

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Martin has both built up the Dothraki as incredible warriors and subverted the idea. Ser Jorah kills a Dothraki swordsman because he's armoured. Dothraki went down like nine-pins at Qohor. Armoured pit-fighters defeat the Dothraki in Danzak's Pit. The Golden Company have bows that outrange the Dothraki.

But, the Dothraki rule vast parts of Essos, and get protection money from the Free Cities,

I doubt if this is lazy writing, and will get resolved but how?

My view is:-

1. Dothraki are great fighters, and usually have an advantage in numbers.

2. They are vulnerable to well-trained, armoured opponents, when they fight at close quarters.

3. Dothraki do best if they can fight on the steppes, where their enemies can't get to grips, and they shoot them down from a distance.

4. A general who knows his business, has the kind of force Tywin had at Green Fork, and offers the Dothraki

a fight on a narrow battlefield (like Crecy) will win.

5. The profits of the Slave Trade are gigantic, and the Dothraki aren't reaping them. It's cheaper for city states to pay bribes to the Dothraki and buy their slaves, than to collaborate in putting an end to the Dothraki once and for all.

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How do Dothraki deal with cities?



They don´t hold with cities (as Illyrio of Pentos commented), and they have got rid of a lot - Vaes Tolorro and others, all Sarnori cities save one, a Valyrian one between Sarne and Qohor, seceral north of Meereen - but how?



The Qohoriks sent their heavy cavalry and mercenaries out to be crushed by Temmo - and then the 3000 unsullied stood outside the gates.



Why? What would the Dothraki have done if the Unsullied just manned the top of the gates, and heavy cavalry and mercenaries retreated inside the gates? Even arrows would have rained harmless on tiled roofs...


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Why? What would the Dothraki have done if the Unsullied just manned the top of the gates, and heavy cavalry and mercenaries retreated inside the gates? Even arrows would have rained harmless on tiled roofs...

Loot and burn the surroundings, ensuring economic hardship and perhaps worse for the foreseeable future. Head home and then come back later for a second go.

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The feigned rout tactic is typical among nomadic steppe cultures and many a times, it won many battles. Both the enemy commanders and their soldiers should be extremely experienced in the battlefield, otherwise they end up trapped while arrows rain on them.


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How would an infantry marching out to tall grass sea be assured of breaking khals once and for all?



Not only can the khalasar feign a retreat... they also can carry out a genuine retreat. Go elsewhere across the Dothraki sea, and leave trampled fields and burnt barns for the farmers.



Breaking a khalasar who is willing to retreat rather than be massacred or sold as slaves requires the capacity to pursue a khalasar into Dothraki Sea and engage them when it is they who are at a disadvantage - slowed down by their women, children and herds. When they have to choose to be killed once and for all, or be picked off one by one in flight and get killed all the same.



What kind of army can destroy a khalasar?


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A feigned retreat is a military tactic whereby an army will pretend to withdraw or that they have been routed in order to lure an enemy into a position of vulnerability. Feigned retreats are one of the more difficult tactics for an army to undertake, and require well-disciplined soldiers. This is because if the enemy presses into it, undisciplined troops will lose coherence and the rout will become genuine.



Here is a good read.


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How would an infantry marching out to tall grass sea be assured of breaking khals once and for all?

Not only can the khalasar feign a retreat... they also can carry out a genuine retreat. Go elsewhere across the Dothraki sea, and leave trampled fields and burnt barns for the farmers.

Breaking a khalasar who is willing to retreat rather than be massacred or sold as slaves requires the capacity to pursue a khalasar into Dothraki Sea and engage them when it is they who are at a disadvantage - slowed down by their women, children and herds. When they have to choose to be killed once and for all, or be picked off one by one in flight and get killed all the same.

What kind of army can destroy a khalasar?

The chinese general and scholar Wang Yuch (1426-1499) studied the mongolian tactics and was able to create an army of chinese cavalry able to beat the Mongols in their own turf. The Essossi could do the same, if they were willing to spend the money.

The Romans countered the Parthian tactics by using fortifications to avoid combat except when the conditions were favourable to them. They relied on a combination of archers protected by spearmen and a cavalry copied from their parthian enemies.

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It's good to see the Dothraki know better tactics than charging healong into spears. Makes them a more credible threat.



On the other hand, chariots, spearmen and slingers? That's like, New Kingdom Egypt level of technology. They do use armored riders which softens the blow a lot, but we kinda see Martin's slight obsession with have myriads of different combat styles exist together, even if some are woefully outdated, chariots and slingers in particular.


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It's good to see the Dothraki know better tactics than charging healong into spears. Makes them a more credible threat.

On the other hand, chariots, spearmen and slingers? That's like, New Kingdom Egypt level of technology. They do use armored riders which softens the blow a lot, but we kinda see Martin's slight obsession with have myriads of different combat styles exist together, even if some are woefully outdated, chariots and slingers in particular.

Most chariots became obsolete when horses became strong enough to bear riders, but slingers remained useful throughout most of the classical period.

For example, Xenophon mentioned in the Anabasis that the Greek slingers ensured the survival of the 10,000 because their stones outranged the Persian arrows. Plus the fact that slings using lead bullets could hurt people wearing armor more reliably than bows.

As for spearmen, well, soldiers are still using bayonets in the modern day.

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How to explain Qohor, which involved no tactical skill? The Dothraki launched a head-on charge against spears, which ended badly.

Because of the extraordinary discipline of the Unsullied. The Dothraki thought that the Unsullied would break and flee in discord after a few charges but the Unsullied stayed rock hard until the last man.

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  • 3 weeks later...

If you post this in general (with spoilers I guess) you might be able to cause a mini shit storm.

Meh, not convinced. That account is pure BS on so many levels. For instance, both sides would have starved weeks earlier.

TWOIAF plays splendidly with the telephone game. The further from the Citadel (miles, years, cultures), the less reliable the accounts get. And this one is about as far as it can get.

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Meh, not convinced. That account is pure BS on so many levels. For instance, both sides would have starved weeks earlier.

TWOIAF plays splendidly with the telephone game. The further from the Citadel (miles, years, cultures), the less reliable the accounts get. And this one is about as far as it can get.

I don't think that is the case because Yandel quotes from many Essossi historians/travellers, he is not making stuff up. Like this:

Terrio Erastes, the great Braavosi adventurer, kept a record of his time among the Dothraki and witnessed the fall of Ibbish while a guest of Khal Dhako. His chronicle, Fire Upon the Grass, notes that Khal Dhako was said to take great pride in being accounted the Dragon of the North, but at the end he came to rue it, for when his khalasar was broken in battle by that of Khal Temmo, the younger khal took the elder captive and fed him to the flames, cutting off his hands and feet and genitals and roasting them before his eyes, after first burning his wives and sons in the same manner.

And these are not the ancient times we are talking about. All of the Dothraki stuff happened in the last 400 years or so.
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