[TWOIAF Spoilers] Dothraki Discussion

[Nictarion]

Reading TWOIAF further deepened my conviction that the Dothraki are the single nastiest thing standing in the way of progress. Seriously they all need to die.

:rolleyes: Genocide.....what a lovely and enlightened view. Would you like to throw in the Ironborn and Wildlings to boot?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I don't think that is the case because Yandel quotes from many Essossi historians/travellers, he is not making stuff up. Like this:

Terrio Erastes, the great Braavosi adventurer, kept a record of his time among the Dothraki and witnessed the fall of Ibbish while a guest of Khal Dhako. His chronicle, Fire Upon the Grass, notes that Khal Dhako was said to take great pride in being accounted the Dragon of the North, but at the end he came to rue it, for when his khalasar was broken in battle by that of Khal Temmo, the younger khal took the elder captive and fed him to the flames, cutting off his hands and feet and genitals and roasting them before his eyes, after first burning his wives and sons in the same manner.

And these are not the ancient times we are talking about. All of the Dothraki stuff happened in the last 400 years or so.

He may not make stuff up, but numbers and similar details are always the first to go. And there was no direct account. All the juicy little details are BS.

Just read the misconceptions about the "Lion Lord" the population of the far east have, as reported by Lomas Longstrider. Just reverse it and you'll recognize how untrstworthy such sources are.

Or look at the 99 eunuchs per one potential father culture Yandel claims to exist.

[Mithras]

He may not make stuff up, but numbers and similar details are always the first to go. And there was no direct account. All the juicy little details are BS.

Just read the misconceptions about the "Lion Lord" the population of the far east have, as reported by Lomas Longstrider. Just reverse it and you'll recognize how untrstworthy such sources are.

Or look at the 99 eunuchs per one potential father culture Yandel claims to exist.

The ambiguity with the numbers applies to the Dothraki too. Perhaps 80k was exaggerated too. It is true that even today many Real World historians do not agree with the numbers of the fighting armies in a war but the results of the wars are known. In the case of the Dothraki, the Kingdom of Sarnor was destroyed and the remains of sacked cities are all over the place.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The ambiguity with the numbers applies to the Dothraki too. Perhaps 80k was exaggerated too. It is true that even today many Real World historians do not agree with the numbers of the fighting armies in a war but the results of the wars are known. In the case of the Dothraki, the Kingdom of Sarnor was destroyed and the remains of sacked cities are all over the place.

Not disputing that. The Kingdom of Sarnor was destroyed. It's the details that I question.

[SeanF]

Sarnor might well have survived had the city states woken up to the danger sooner, and presented a united front. By the time Alexi Mazor led his counter-attack, half the states had gone down.

The Dothraki clearly aren't invincible. They were defeated at Qohor, and the Ibbenese inflicted at least one major defeat on them, even if they lost eventually. Their attempts to cross the Bones have always ended badly, too. If the Volantnnes have fought them, they must have won some victories, since Volantis still stands.

[Dimples]

If the Volantnnes have fought them, they must have won some victories, since Volantis still stands.

They could've lost and resorted to wildly extravagant bribes.

[The King in Black]

This is good, because before the Dothraki felt like dumber fictional cousins of the mongols

[Jaak]

How did the Dothraki manage to sustain the 6 years siege of Mardosh?

[AzureOwl]

:rolleyes: Genocide.....what a lovely and enlightened view. Would you like to throw in the Ironborn and Wildlings to boot?

Where the Dothraki and Ironborn are concerned, genocide is not the solution, but ethnocide would greatly benefit the rest of the world. It’s their cultures that need to be utterly eradicated.

While this would be monstrously evil in the real world, the fact of the matter is that those two cultures have not real world parallel as far as their negative impact in everyone around them is concerned. The Vikings raided and invaded other peoples, but the raiding and the pillaging wasn’t the central point of their entire way of life and their religion wasn’t based on it. Same thing with the Dothraki. In the real world, the horse nomads resembled the Jogos Nhai more than they did the Dothraki. The Mongols ground nations under their feet, but only those who resisted and they actually became great rulers for the settled peoples.

The Ironborn and Dothraki traditional cultures are entirely based around the parasitical destruction of everyone around them, to a degree that has known no equal in the real world.

The only way to solve the Ironborn problem in the Seven Kingdoms is to outlaw the worship of the Drowned God (which is an actual Religion of Evil) and put every last one of the Drowned Men to the sword. Theirs is an oral tradition, kill them all and the rituals die with them. Forced conversion to the Faith of the Seven and outlawing any songs glorifying the Old Way. Attaint all the noble houses of the Islands and distribute their lands among pious Seven-worshiping mainland houses. Maintain the Iron Isles under occupation for a generation or two, ruled not by a Lord Paramount but by a non-hereditary Viceroy, appointed by the Iron Throne. Ban the private ownership of longships and put the Iron Fleet under the control and command of the Viceroy, with mainland crews and mainland officers. Drag the Seastone Chair to King’s Landing and smash Nagga’s Bones to dust and built a sept and septry on the site. If our history has taught us anything is that forced conversion and the complete replacement of a religion is possible in a relatively short timespan. And it sticks.

As for the Dothraki, in the event of their defeat, kill the Dosh khaleen and put Vaes Dothrak to the torch, kill all the warriors and take away their horses. Make the surviving women and children keep herds of sheep and cattle. In essence, turn them in Lhazareen.

[AzureOwl]

How did the Dothraki manage to sustain the 6 years siege of Mardosh?

Presumably different khalasars rotated siege duty.

[Ser Lepus]

They could've lost and resorted to wildly extravagant bribes.

If they had never won against the Dothraki they wouldn't keep training Tiger Warriors and using them to patrol the border with the Dothraki Sea.

Because of the extraordinary discipline of the Unsullied. The Dothraki thought that the Unsullied would break and flee in discord after a few charges but the Unsullied stayed rock hard until the last man.

You would think that, after the Dothraki lost several thousand of horsemen they would stop charging and would start releasing arrows from afar and try to flank the Unsullied.

[Jaak]

You would think that, after the Dothraki lost several thousand of horsemen they would stop charging and would start releasing arrows from afar and try to flank the Unsullied.

And I would think the Unsullied would have been better employed guarding the walls and gates of Qohor, not standing outside in the field and losing 2400 out of 3000.

[Ser Lepus]

And I would think the Unsullied would have been better employed guarding the walls and gates of Qohor, not standing outside in the field and losing 2400 out of 3000.

The Dothraki would probably have camped outside and raided the countryside until they were bribed away.

But yes, sending them to fight the kalashar in the open was a horrible idea; I don't think anybody could have predicted their victory.

[Jaak]

The Dothraki would probably have camped outside and raided the countryside until they were bribed away.

Then the Dothraki are in unfortified camp and the Unsullied are on top of their walls.

The Qohorik should have kept adequate watch on the walls, by shifts - when the besiegers attempt a surprise storm, the guards will hold the wall, and by the time they tire the rest of the besieged get up to help them - and when the Dothraki are tired, camping and out of vigilance, raid them in their unfortified camp. While the attackers would no doubt suffer some losses, by attacking when the Dothraki are at a disadvantage and getting back behind their walls when Dothraki are at advantage, they could inflict heavier losses on the besieger, without loot for that.

[Ser Lepus]

Then the Dothraki are in unfortified camp and the Unsullied are on top of their walls.

The Qohorik should have kept adequate watch on the walls, by shifts - when the besiegers attempt a surprise storm, the guards will hold the wall, and by the time they tire the rest of the besieged get up to help them - and when the Dothraki are tired, camping and out of vigilance, raid them in their unfortified camp. While the attackers would no doubt suffer some losses, by attacking when the Dothraki are at a disadvantage and getting back behind their walls when Dothraki are at advantage, they could inflict heavier losses on the besieger, without loot for that.

I assume the dothraki would be smart enough to camp at some distance from the walls and to keep watchers and scouts around the camp.

If they camped close to the walls, attacking them at night would be a good tactic. Their cavalry would be way less effective at night, and I have read that horses can handle lack of sleep and rest way worse than a healthy human (so the next morning they would be very tired and unable to do their job properly).

[Dimples]

If they had never won against the Dothraki they wouldn't keep training Tiger Warriors and using them to patrol the border with the Dothraki Sea.

Wait, so they would stop training soldiers because they lost battles? That seems counterproductive.

Anyway, this is a pointless discussion. The Volantenes probably won against the Dothraki at least a few times, but there's too little evidence to confirm it either way.

[Ser Lepus]

Wait, so they would stop training soldiers because they lost battles? That seems counterproductive.

Anyway, this is a pointless discussion. The Volantenes probably won against the Dothraki at least a few times, but there's too little evidence to confirm it either way.

Why keeping an expensive army if it's useless? If the Tiger Warriors couldn't protect them against the main danger that Volantis itself has to face, they would try something different, like importing Unsullied, like Qohor does.

[Jaak]

How well do horseback Dothraki fight against ships?

[Mithras]

How well do horseback Dothraki fight against ships?

If the ships try to sail over the Dothraki Sea, the Dothraki will crush them for sure.

[Jaak]

If the ships try to sail over the Dothraki Sea, the Dothraki will crush them for sure.

Ships certainly do sail river Rhoyne.

How do Dothraki get across Rhoyne? Yandry reports that Shy Maid with her broad beam and shallow draught can negotiate sandbars even in smaller vassal streams of Rhoyne, that would strand larger vessels. Are these sandbars also shallow enough all across Rhoyne that men and horses can wade across Rhoyne with head in air and without feet sinking into soft bottom anywhere? Or do Dothraki have to cross by swimming horses?