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[TWOIAF Spoilers] Dothraki Discussion


Mithras

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They don't siege. They don't need to siege. Because they pound the farms and villages and small, unfortified towns until the armies come out of their fortresses.

It's a classic chevauchee: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevauch%C3%A9e

But the dothraki already killed the men when dealing with the tall men, and seeing how they supposedly have the might of the Khans in their armless shoulders, I would imagine a Stannis move would be in order. Also the world book never gave the impression they did this "the dragon in the North" seemed to basically walked in the walled city.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Meh. Sarnor featured frigging chariots as their main weapon. They served well in Ancient Egypt or Mykene, but about 1,000 BC they were phased out, replaced by cavalry.



And the large amount of women in the Sarnori "army" indicates more of a "everybody grap a weapon however unfit" move instead of a proper army. The numbers are inflated anyway.


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The large amount of women in Sarnori army is a cultural thing. Women fought alongside men.

That's what Maester Yandel tells us. And like everything, it has to be taken with a grain of salt. Given the distance, a truckload of salt would be better.

There never was a people beyond primitive tribe structure who featured a noticeable amount of women in their military before the 21st century and even now it's rare. And people with primitive tribe structures don't actually have something that could be called an army.

The physical advantages of men were simply to large. And the women had that little problem called pregnancy as well.

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That's what Maester Yandel tells us. And like everything, it has to be taken with a grain of salt. Given the distance, a truckload of salt would be better.

There never was a people beyond primitive tribe structure who featured a noticeable amount of women in their military before the 21st century and even now it's rare. And people with primitive tribe structures don't actually have something that could be called an army.

The physical advantages of men were simply to large. And the women had that little problem called pregnancy as well.

Um, this isn't real life and we have an entire culture where the only warriors are women. Are women fighting being a part of Sarnori culture that hard to believe?

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...According to the notoriously reliable Maester Yandel.

No. There are two named books, Rubies and Iron by a Maester Naylin and The True Account of Addam of Duskendale's Journeys (though this one is admitted to be about the man's 'alleged' travels), and the book says "many accounts inform us that the mountain warriors of Kayakayanaya, Samryiana, and Bayasabhad are all women", stating that there are more sources than just those two accounts.

And they're even mentioned in the series proper, in one of Daenerys' POV chapers from the very first book it mentions there being warrior maids from those cities in the markets of Vaes Dothrak. So they do exist.

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And they're even mentioned in the series proper, in one of Daenerys' POV chapers from the very first book it mentions there being warrior maids from those cities in the markets of Vaes Dothrak. So they do exist.

Yes, warrior women do exist. I'm not denying that. They existed in the real world as well. But entire cities where 100% of the warriors are women and 99% of the men are gelded? Really? And yes, I know this isn't real life, but it is rather realistic for high fantasy, and so it's safe to assume that human biology still applies in this situation.

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The culture where every father gelds 99% of his own offspring? Sure... Münchhausen, I hear you traipsing.

Yes, warrior women do exist. I'm not denying that. They existed in the real world as well. But entire cities where 100% of the warriors are women and 99% of the men are gelded? Really? And yes, I know this isn't real life, but it is rather realistic for high fantasy, and so it's safe to assume that human biology still applies in this situation.

Huh, when I first read it I thought it just said that the rulers' sons were mostly castrated, but after rereading it it seems you're right. But the point still remains that the cities have warrior women, so the Sarnori having warrior women isn't too far-fetched.

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As I said in the other thread, what is the guarantee that the Dothraki described to us by mainly Jorah are the representative of the entire Dothraki throughout the history? Yes, Westeros seems like frozen in feudal age for thousands of years but the Dothraki only emerged 400 years ago. I think the Dothraki society is the most adaptive society in ASOIAF. That is generally the case with nomadic societies. They evolve and adapt to changing conditions very rapidly. Perhaps the Dothraki did not need to fight heavily armored armies or to take heavily walled cities anymore. So, they evolved to prey on the weak targets like the Lhazareen. They destroyed most of the easy targets and tough ones remaining pay them tributes. What is the reason to break this status quo, unless the Dothraki unite under the prophesized khal?


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As I said in the other thread, what is the guarantee that the Dothraki described to us by mainly Jorah are the representative of the entire Dothraki throughout the history? Yes, Westeros seems like frozen in feudal age for thousands of years but the Dothraki only emerged 400 years ago. I think the Dothraki society is the most adaptive society in ASOIAF. That is generally the case with nomadic societies. They evolve and adapt to changing conditions very rapidly. Perhaps the Dothraki did not need to fight heavily armored armies or to take heavily walled cities anymore. So, they evolved to prey on the weak targets like the Lhazareen. They destroyed most of the easy targets and tough ones remaining pay them tributes. What is the reason to break this status quo, unless the Dothraki unite under the prophesized khal?

The dothraki society is not some four hundred years old. that is just when they gained the stones to attack the western part of Essos. As to the way they adapt, one of Dany's bloodriders, who served under Khal Drogo, the must powerful of Khals, answer to a siege was ride away. It has been heavil cleared the dothraki don't just not use armor, they find the use cowardly.

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Huh, when I first read it I thought it just said that the rulers' sons were mostly castrated, but after rereading it it seems you're right. But the point still remains that the cities have warrior women, so the Sarnori having warrior women isn't too far-fetched.

And the amazons were a tribe where only the women fought. While cutting off one breast. Far, far away. Please remember Maester Yandel's caveat: The farther away, geographically or in time, the less reliable his information is.

Please compare your assumption to Dornish society: Women are equal. But their women don't fight. At all.

Elia Sand catches as much flak as Brienne. More than Asha or the Mormont girls.

GRRM is very much aware of the problems women would face in the military.

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That's what Maester Yandel tells us. And like everything, it has to be taken with a grain of salt. Given the distance, a truckload of salt would be better.

There never was a people beyond primitive tribe structure who featured a noticeable amount of women in their military before the 21st century and even now it's rare. And people with primitive tribe structures don't actually have something that could be called an army.

The physical advantages of men were simply to large. And the women had that little problem called pregnancy as well.

That's not true. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahomey_Amazons .

That said a lot of stuff in TWOIAF is obviously bullshit, and supposed to be so. I believe there is even a GRRM quote where he said that he wanted the book to reflect real historical texts, where things often tended to become more weird or fantastic the further away from the author's homeland and time they took place.

Such as Herodotos writing that some people in Ethiopia had feet large enough that they could use them as sun shades, or the papal envoy who had been sent to investigate the Mongols writing down rumours of a race of dog-people in the east that had apparently managed to repel their invasions.

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And the amazons were a tribe where only the women fought. While cutting off one breast. Far, far away. Please remember Maester Yandel's caveat: The farther away, geographically or in time, the less reliable his information is.

Please compare your assumption to Dornish society: Women are equal. But their women don't fight. At all.

Elia Sand catches as much flak as Brienne. More than Asha or the Mormont girls.

GRRM is very much aware of the problems women would face in the military.

Nobody seems to dispute the fact that Leng is ruled over by a God Empress or that the Five Forts exist, yet they're even farther away than the Bone Mountains. And it's not like the cities are some isolated area that nobody ever goes to; they control the only major land routes across the Bone Mountains.

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The fall of Mardosh finally awakened the remaining Sarnori kings to the depth of their peril. Putting aside their own quarrels and rivalries at last, the Tall Men gathered from up and down the Sarne, assembling a great army beneath the walls of Sarnath, intent on breaking the power of the khals for good and all. Led by Mazor Alexi, last of the High Kings, they struck out boldly to the east. In the tall grass halfway between Sarnath and the ruins of Kasath, they met the assembled power of four khalasars on what forever after was known as the Field of Crows.

Khal Haro, Khal Qano, Khal Loso (the Lame), and Khal Zhako commanded almost eighty thousand horsemen between them, we are told. The great host of the High King of Sarnor was led by six thousand scythed chariots, with ten thousand armored riders behind them, and another ten thousand light horsemen (many of them women) on the flanks. Behind them marched the Sarnori foot, close to a hundred thousand spearmen and slingers, giving the Tall Men a great advantage in numbers. On this all chroniclers agree.

As battle was joined, the Sarnori chariots threatened to carry all before them. Their earth-shattering advance smashed through the center of the Dothraki horde, the spinning blades on the wheels of their chariots slicing through the legs of the Dothraki horses. When Khal Haro himself went down before them, cut to pieces and trampled, his khalasar broke and fled . As the chariots thundered after the fleeing horsemen, the High King and his armored riders plunged in after them, followed by the Sarnori foot, waving their spears and screaming victory.

Their elation was short-lived. The rout was feigned. When they had drawn the Tall Men deep into the trap, the fleeing Dothraki turned suddenly and unleashed a storm of arrows from their great bows. The khalasars of Khal Qano and Khal Zhako swept in from north and south, while Loso the Lame and his screamers circled round and attacked the Sarnori from the rear, cutting off their retreat. Completely encircled, the High King and his mighty host were cut to pieces. Some say a hundred thousand men died that day, amongst them Mazor Alexi, six lesser kings, and more than threescore lords and heroes . As the crows feasted on their corpses, the riders of the khalasars walked amongst the dead and squabbled over their valuables.

Martin, George R.R.; Garcia, Elio; Antonsson, Linda (2014-10-28). The World of Ice & Fire: The Untold History of Westeros and the Game of Thrones (A Song of Ice and Fire) (Kindle Locations 8157-8177). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

In short;

80k unarmored Dothraki screamers > 6k scythed chariots + 10k armored riders + 10k light horsemen + 100k spearmen and slingers

The feigned rout tactic worked miracles.

Reminds me of the battle of kiev.
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The feigned rout tactic is typical among nomadic steppe cultures and many a times, it won many battles. Both the enemy commanders and their soldiers should be extremely experienced in the battlefield, otherwise they end up trapped while arrows rain on them.

Ask the Mongols, who decimated city after city, often putting all to the sword.

Even if they did that, the cities should have no issue not opening their gates to them. Simply shooting arrows shouldn't give them cities like that, it goes beyond all real logic.

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Nobody seems to dispute the fact that Leng is ruled over by a God Empress or that the Five Forts exist, yet they're even farther away than the Bone Mountains. And it's not like the cities are some isolated area that nobody ever goes to; they control the only major land routes across the Bone Mountains.

That's realistic and makes sense. Maybe apart from the Lengii being as tall as they are described.

I question stuff that is unrealistic, or if I know something about the biases of the writer (*cough* Elia *cough*).

Ask the Mongols, who decimated city after city, often putting all to the sword.

With their heavy cavalry and their chinese engineers?

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