[spoiler WoIaF] Let's talk about Skagos

[Ser Lepus]

In an unshocking turn of events, people tend to kill things (or try to) that kill them.

Well, yes, but the point is, HOW the f*ck did they do it? Unless they had magic, they would have to sacrifice thousands of warriors on average to kill each Balerion-sized beast. And during the Age of Heroes Westeros was less populated and worse communicated, meaning that if you wanted to kill a dragon, you only could count on the people from the local villages...

And what about the dragons living in the less populated areas, like the Neck, the Mountains of the Moon, the Mountains of Dorne or the Wolfswood?. They could hide, feeding on wildlife or even fish, like the Grey Ghost did...would people really bother to raise armies to go there and hunt them?

And what about shy dragons like Grey Ghost, who avoided humans altogether? How could people reach and kill them?

[ummester]

Well, yes, but the point is, HOW the f*ck did they do it? Unless they had magic, they would have to sacrifice thousands of warriors on average to kill each Balerion-sized beast. And during the Age of Heroes Westeros was less populated and worse communicated, meaning that if you wanted to kill a dragon, you only could count on the people from the local villages...

And what about the dragons living in the less populated areas, like the Neck, the Mountains of the Moon, the Mountains of Dorne or the Wolfswood?. They could hide, feeding on wildlife or even fish, like the Grey Ghost did...would people really bother to raise armies to go there and hunt them?

And what about shy dragons like Grey Ghost, who avoided humans altogether? How could people reach and kill them?

Skinchange into the dragons you can see, then make them suicide by flying into a mountain or something.

The Long Night would take out any of the skulkers - lack of prey would be an extinction event for large predators like dragons and dead wright meat was probably bad for their bellies - apart from those skulkers the Valyrain's found in the volcanoes.

The second wave, or Valyrian dragons, were probably taken out by something the maesters introduced, trying to ward off a second Long Night. Perhaps greyscale was originally designed to target dragons.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Well, yes, but the point is, HOW the f*ck did they do it? Unless they had magic, they would have to sacrifice thousands of warriors on average to kill each Balerion-sized beast. And during the Age of Heroes Westeros was less populated and worse communicated, meaning that if you wanted to kill a dragon, you only could count on the people from the local villages...

And what about the dragons living in the less populated areas, like the Neck, the Mountains of the Moon, the Mountains of Dorne or the Wolfswood?. They could hide, feeding on wildlife or even fish, like the Grey Ghost did...would people really bother to raise armies to go there and hunt them?

And what about shy dragons like Grey Ghost, who avoided humans altogether? How could people reach and kill them?

Dragons fight other dragons. If the dragons aren't bothering the people, the people probably didn't bother them. Magic clearly existed.

COTF destroyed the land bridge and flooded the neck. Valyria had fire mages. The Rhoynar had water mages. Makes sense that earlier civilizations would too.

[Maia]

Maybe the dragons can only procreate around volcanoes. So, they may have spread out into other regions, but couldn't maintain their population there. And once the Valyrians took control of them, they stopped these wanderings.

I also think that the dragons were made _in response_ to the Long Nght, rather than the other way round. YMMV.

[ummester]

Maybe the dragons can only procreate around volcanoes. So, they may have spread out into other regions, but couldn't maintain their population there. And once the Valyrians took control of them, they stopped these wanderings.

I also think that the dragons were made _in response_ to the Long Nght, rather than the other way round. YMMV.

I think fire/warmth/blood is definitely needed for dragon creation and possibly procreation.

If dragons were made in response to the Long Night, why did it take almost 3000 years to happen? And why were there dragons before the long night?

[Free Northman Reborn]

On the Ironborn origin:

The Iron Isles look like the broken remnants of a larger land area. Could the Iron Isles have once been connected to the shores of Ironman's Bay? Or maybe just extended much closer to the shore than they now do? Maybe the Hammer of the Waters, in addition to shattering the Arm of Dorne and the Neck, also shattered a land bridge or a larger island that is now the Iron Isles?

In fact, I do believe that the Arm of Dorne and the Iron Isles are mentioned together at one point in the World Book, when describing Land erosion.

If so, then the First Men could have reached the Iron Isles before the land was shattered and thus they would not have had to engage in major seafaring to reach them.

On Dragons:

They were wiped out by the Long Night, not by armies of First Men. The Wars between the First Men and the Children, and the First Men and the Giants are well recorded. No mention is made of large scale wars to eradicate dragons from ancient Westeros.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ummester.

You have it the wrong way around. Dragons weren't in response to the Long Night. The Long Night was in response to Dragons.

After all, a phenomenon that robs the world of warmth, and eventually, of food, is the perfect weapon to wipe out a species such as Dragons.

[ummester]

Ummester.

You have it the wrong way around. Dragons weren't in response to the Long Night. The Long Night was in response to Dragons.

After all, a phenomenon that robs the world of warmth, and eventually, of food, is the perfect weapon to wipe out a species such as Dragons.

yea, i know - you've got me the wrong way around, coz I was asking why Maia had it the wrong way around - now it's all twisted :D

1) Dragons made in Asshai - deep, dark past

2) Long Night - 10,000 years ago approx

3) Valyrians find some dragons hiding in volcanoes - 5,000 years ago approx

I'm starting to think now that dragons disrupted the south pole (Ulthos) and this caused the Long Night and a moon to fall, which inturn knocked out all of the dragons (except for those hiding in the volcanoes).

[Free Northman Reborn]

Sorry. I know it is not your theory originally, so you won't take it personally: I think the idea that Ulthos is/was the Southpole is utterly ridiculous. It is not the Southpole and likely never was within the last 100 million years or so.

Dragons did disrupt some balance, though, that is for sure. The ancient legends actually connect the sun disappearing for years to the event shortly before it when the second moon burned up. And we know the second moon burning up is connected to the creation of dragons in another legend.

Now, if we really want to stretch things, the second moon burning up, the creation of dragons, and the Hammer of the Waters may all be the same event, or at least linked together in some way.

With the Long Night then following not too long after that point in response to this disruption of nature's balance. (Presumably the balance between Ice and Fire).

[ummester]

Sorry. I know it is not your theory originally, so you won't take it personally: I think the idea that Ulthos is/was the Southpole is utterly ridiculous. It is not the Southpole and likely never was within the last 100 million years or so.

Dragons did disrupt some balance, though, that is for sure. The ancient legends actually connect the sun disappearing for years to the event shortly before it when the second moon burned up. And we know the second moon burning up is connected to the creation of dragons in another legend.

Now, if we really want to stretch things, the second moon burning up, the creation of dragons, and the Hammer of the Waters may all be the same event, or at least linked together in some way.

With the Long Night then following not too long after that point in response to this disruption of nature's balance. (Presumably the balance between Ice and Fire).

No planet has some kind of inherrant balance between ice and fire though.

It all depends if you think the world in ASoIaF had magical property before dragons or not.

If it did - if it was always a magical world, then yea, anything is possible and dragons could just be a particular kind of magic that unbalanced the world - but why? Why would a magic world have ifs and buts about its magic. Seems pretty stupid to me. Um - too much fire magic bad, it's written in the commandments of the world, you should have read it first. Oh what, you couldn't read? Not my fault - apocalypse time.

Or, if it was the introduction of dragons that brought magic to the world and also unbalanced it, you would expect a natural, pseudoscience explanation for the Long Night.

We know there are 3 things related to it

Long Night.

Moon burning up.

And, irregular, unbalanced seasons after the event.

If the dragons were made on the planet, why would the moon be effected - unless the planets orbit was effected. Now, I'm assuming these dragons can't fly in space and they didn't come from the moon. So the movement of the planet must have been disrupted somehow - there is no other way around it other than actual magic moving landmasses and stuff like that.

If GRRM goes full magic - then he goes full magic and that is fine. But if he goes half and half, something like, yea the moon leaving orbit caused the long night and the continents to shift but now the winters are just coz of the Others - that is BS. He can't mix and match like that without making the ending daft.

[Hrafntýr]

People, or something more?

It's a fantasy saga, don't forget.

I can fully get on board with people plotting to destroy the Valyrian freehold (like the faceless men) and the maester's in Westeros killing off the second dragon wave.

But there were no faceless men or maester's for the first dragon wave. What could have wiped them out, other than the Long Night? I highly doubt people would have caused the Long Night.

I'm sure dragons in this saga are not indigenous to the world and are more representative of people playing with fire that is beyond their control.

Perhaps ice dragons could be part of the picture, with their ability to conquer fire dragons being facilitated by a Long Night? There'd be no evidence for this, of course, given that ice dragon skeletons, like those of the WWs, melt away upon death.

I think it's quite plausible that both the ice dragons and the WWs thrive in conditions created by Long Night. But of course this doesn't answer the question of who created the Long Night. It's true that there were no Faceless or maesters back then, but there were Children, who claim to go back a million years, iirc.

[cgf]

People, or something more?

It's a fantasy saga, don't forget.

I can fully get on board with people plotting to destroy the Valyrian freehold (like the faceless men) and the maester's in Westeros killing off the second dragon wave.

But there were no faceless men or maester's for the first dragon wave. What could have wiped them out, other than the Long Night? I highly doubt people would have caused the Long Night.

I'm sure dragons in this saga are not indigenous to the world and are more representative of people playing with fire that is beyond their control.

What makes you so sure that the First Men and CotF didn't cause a Long Night to save themselves from Dragons?

[ummester]

I'm not sure it wasn't the children - that could work but would feel like a lame explanation to me - these little tunneling squirrel people running around the world causing all of these events - bah, silly ending.

[ummester]

think it's quite plausible that both the ice dragons and the WWs thrive in conditions created by Long Night. But of course this doesn't answer the question of who created the Long Night. It's true that there were no Faceless or maesters back then, but there were Children, who claim to go back a million years, iirc.

Little squirrel people dropping a moon from the sky and making it dark will be even more lame than them digging tunnels to the doom and stuff. All they need is little capes with a big S on them now.

[cgf]

I'm not sure it wasn't the children - that could work but would feel like a lame explanation to me - these little tunneling squirrel people running around the world causing all of these events - bah, silly ending.

Little squirrel people who created the Hammer of Waters which turned the Neck into a swampland, severed the arm of dorne, and broke the iron islands into many parts. Why shouldn't their magic be powerful enough to start a Long Night? Especially if used by first men who had less understanding and so control of it.

[ummester]

Little squirrel people who created the Hammer of Waters which turned the Neck into a swampland, severed the arm of dorne, and broke the iron islands into many parts. Why shouldn't their magic be powerful enough to start a Long Night? Especially if used by first men who had less understanding and so control of it.

Yea, I was hoping that was just legend and the squirrel people, although working for the planet, were not as powerful as the overall natural forces of the planet itself. I get what it would be doing - like they are the little hobbits and the planet is their garden that they are trying to protect. As a visual explanation it just fails for me though - and it de-powers both the planet and the humans relationship with it. I expect it to be an eco tale, just not such a fantastic one. I'm not saying it wont be - and who knows, it could work - I just can't see it. You want to tell a modern eco tale - you make the planet important, not some half baked throwback idea to hobbits.

If this is the case, people will get to the end and go - oh that's nice, Westeros had little hobbits looking after it. Earth doesn't, so we don't have to care about Earth - or Earth needs little hobbits, so its not really our problem. To make it more relevant to modern times the relationship should be directly between the human characters and the planet - not have the squirrel people playing such a large part in between.

[Hrafntýr]

Little squirrel people who created the Hammer of Waters which turned the Neck into a swampland, severed the arm of dorne, and broke the iron islands into many parts. Why shouldn't their magic be powerful enough to start a Long Night? Especially if used by first men who had less understanding and so control of it.

Little squirrel people who are few in number and seem perfectly fine with living underground where it's dark anyway but stays relatively warm during a Long Night/Winter up above?

Though admittedly, these could be adaptations to past Long Nights...with some other race (Old Gods/Cold Gods?) being responsible for making it happen. (All the HPL references made me thing that there could be deeper, darker forces responsible for everything.)

[ummester]

Little squirrel people who are few in number and seem perfectly fine with living underground where it's dark anyway but stays relatively warm during a Long Night/Winter up above?

Though admittedly, these could be adaptations to past Long Nights...with some other race (Old Gods/Cold Gods?) being responsible for making it happen. (All the HPL references made me thing that there could be deeper, darker forces responsible for everything.)

I don't think there will be any magical forces beyond the squirrel folk - the plot already has enough players.

If they are responsible for everything, I hope the remaining giants step on a few, to give me some satisfaction :D

I'll call this now - if the TV show ends with the wood nymph pulling all the strings, viewers are going to going to hate it. It may work a bit better in the books, because the prehistory is better described - still, as far as the show is concerned, viewers have been watching a relatively human drama and they are invested in the outcome and prehistory being related to the human characters - squirrels on TV will fail.

[cgf]

Little squirrel people who are few in number and seem perfectly fine with living underground where it's dark anyway but stays relatively warm during a Long Night/Winter up above?

Though admittedly, these could be adaptations to past Long Nights...with some other race (Old Gods/Cold Gods?) being responsible for making it happen. (All the HPL references made me thing that there could be deeper, darker forces responsible for everything.)

Yea, I was hoping that was just legend and the squirrel people, although working for the planet, were not as powerful as the overall natural forces of the planet itself. I get what it would be doing - like they are the little hobbits and the planet is their garden that they are trying to protect. As a visual explanation it just fails for me though - and it de-powers both the planet and the humans relationship with it. I expect it to be an eco tale, just not such a fantastic one. I'm not saying it wont be - and who knows, it could work - I just can't see it. You want to tell a modern eco tale - you make the planet important, not some half baked throwback idea to hobbits.

If this is the case, people will get to the end and go - oh that's nice, Westeros had little hobbits looking after it. Earth doesn't, so we don't have to care about Earth - or Earth needs little hobbits, so its not really our problem. To make it more relevant to modern times the relationship should be directly between the human characters and the planet - not have the squirrel people playing such a large part in between.

I never said that the Squirrel people are "working for the planet." That gives them a benevolence I don't see in Martin's world and far too homogenous of motivations for this story. I'm sure in a normal fantasy story that's what they'd do, like if tolkien had written this, but ASOIAF isn't that. Thus I can't see all of the children all playing for the same sides back in their heyday. Nor can I really see their knowledge being restricted only to them. Ideas that seems to be reflected in all of the magical forces at play in the early histories, the barrow kings, the warg king and his greenseer, the starks themselves, the various children and skinchangers sought out at the times of the andal invasions. So rather than as earth loving hippies, the children were likely just the first species that we know of to learn to tap into the natural powers that exist. Like mini-scientists, and given that they thought they'd break the neck with the hammer of the waters, or so we're told, even they seemed to have been playing with forces they didn't completely understand in those early days.

And the Long Night may not have even been their work, it could've just been their magic that the Others or First Men tried to use against the dragons. Though my initial post has an "and" where it should say "and/or", so that's on me.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Part of me likes the theory that there were ancient dragon riders all over the world, and the long night destroyed them, but if the others and the long night defeated this ancient dragon riding race, how then did other less advanced people beat them with swords instead of dragons? And if that is the case then why does Dany even have dragons? There must be something we are not getting/getting told.