The New Gift and the decline of the Night's Watch: Lord Ellard and Lord Eddard

[LordBloodraven]

"Though in these days it is said that Lord Ellard Stark was glad to aid the Nights Watch with the Gift, and took little convincing, the truth is otherwise. Letters from Lord Stark's brother to the Citadel, asking the maesters to provide precedents against the forced donation of property, made it plain that the Starks were not eager to do as King Jaehaerys bid . It may be that the Starks feared that, under the control of the Castle Black, the New Gift would inevitably decline for the Nights Watch would always look northward and never give much thought to their new tenants to the south. And as it happens, that soon came to pass, and the New Gift is now said to be largely unpopulated thanks to the decline of the Watch and the rising toll taken by raiders from beyond the Wall"

So the Starks were against the donation of the New Gift to the Night's Watch. Maester Yandel even speculates that this forced donation was one of the reason, Lord Ellard Stark backed Laenor Velaryon during the Great Council of 101. History seems to have given them reason with the depopulation of the New Gift due to the depleted forces of the Night's Watch. We know from Jon that Ned wanted to repopulate the New Gift by raising new lords after winter, but we don't know much about the legality of this.

Anyway, I found this tidbit to be very interesting and it reminded me of Roose Bolton calling Good Queen Alysanne a "shrew" in ADWD. Perhaps Jahaerys and his wife left a bad impression during their tour of the North.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't see why they should had left a good impression. Only the dragons might have been nice. I don't see why people should be happy when they took their land and their freedom.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

As the Greatjon said, why bend the knee to people who know nothing of the realities of their life? Jaehaerys had good intentions but didn't understand the implications like Ellard did. Also, the northerners are the only ones who seem to support the Watch. Its said that the watch largely survives on donated harvests from Northern Lords. Jaehaerys going there and saying that they should give more when the southerners just send convicts is not going to go well.

Ned could have done whatever he wanted with a letter to Robert.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Looks like another instance of Southrons not understanding the North. As for Jahaerys , he doesnt seem so "GOOD" now that details are coming about his rule.

[Colonel Green]

It ultimately didn't work, but clearly something had to be done about the state of the Watch; policy experimentation doesn't always work, or even work a majority of the time. I don't believe Lord Ellard had any better ideas.

Ultimately, of course, the main problem with the Night's Watch is not money, it's that it's a shitty job that almost nobody with any better options wants to do, especially as the Others have receded into the realm of myth.

Anyway, I found this tidbit to be very interesting and it reminded me of Roose Bolton calling Good Queen Alysanne a "shrew" in ADWD. Perhaps Jahaerys and his wife left a bad impression during their tour of the North.

Roose Bolton was quite clear why he called Alysanne a shrew; because she tried to stop the rape of commoners. None of the other Northern characters think of them in anything but praiseworthy terms, so I don't think the memory of Jaehaerys and Alysanne is much different in the north from anywhere else.

[Barrick Eddon]

It ultimately didn't work, but clearly something had to be done about the state of the Watch; policy experimentation doesn't always work, or even work a majority of the time. I don't believe Lord Ellard had any better ideas.

Ultimately, of course, the main problem with the Night's Watch is not money, it's that it's a shitty job that almost nobody with any better options wants to do, especially as the Others have receded into the realm of myth.

Roose Bolton was quite clear why he called Alysanne a shrew; because she tried to stop the rape of commoners. None of the other Northern characters think of them in anything but praiseworthy terms, so I don't think the memory of Jaehaerys and Alysanne is much different in the north from anywhere else.

Yes he had better ideas , LEAVE THE GIFT TO ME and everything will be ok.

[Colonel Green]

Seeing as the Watch was precipitously declining, clearly the status quo wasn't working. The New Gift boosted the Watch temporarily, though the decline started again eventually.

[Barrick Eddon]

Seeing as the Watch was precipitously declining, clearly the status quo wasn't working. The New Gift boosted the Watch temporarily, though the decline started again eventually.

It worked the gift had people living there and everything was fine , until the Targs took the gift from the Starks and gave to the NW , now there aren't people there any more .

The Watch was 10000 strong in time of Aegon I , less than 300 years later it was reduced to 1000 , what do you think who's fault was that .

[Colonel Green]

No, the status quo wasn't working, because the Watch was declining.

It wasn't the fault of the Targaryens that the Watch was undermanned (the only conceivable way they could have impacted that would be if the pacifying of the Seven Kingdoms dramatically reduced the number of prisoners of war being sent there, but if that was the case, that's a clear institutional problem, not the Targaryens' fault, if the Watch declines merely because the Seven Kingdoms are less violent).

The fundamental problem with the Watch is that nobody wants to do the job.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

No, the status quo wasn't working, because the Watch was declining.

It wasn't the fault of the Targaryens that the Watch was undermanned (the only conceivable way they could have impacted that would be if the pacifying of the Seven Kingdoms dramatically reduced the number of prisoners of war being sent there, but if that was the case, that's a clear institutional problem, not the Targaryens' fault, if the Watch declines merely because the Seven Kingdoms are less violent).

The fundamental problem with the Watch is that nobody wants to do the job.

I doubt those 10,000 men during Aegon's reign wanted to do it either but there they were.

[HexMachina]

I'm actually a little confused by the Lords of Winterfell. Lord Ellard should be the Lord when Alysanne and Jaehaerys visit the Wall, which iirc should be sometime around 90-100AC. In 131AC, Cregan Stark is the Lord of Winterfell during the Dance of Dragons. In 101AC Ellard is still the Lord. So in the space of only 30 years we have a Lord Benjen Stark and his son Rickon Stark assuming the Lordship, before passing to Cregan. That is quite a number of Lords in (at the very most) 30 years.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Looks like another instance of Southrons not understanding the North. As for Jahaerys , he doesnt seem so "GOOD" now that details are coming about his rule.

Exactly! He doesn't seem so "great" now. Ok he disbanded the Faith militant and stopped the war and created Kingsroad. But even if he *stopped* first night it really didn't stopped, at the North and Dragonstone as far as we know, he created all the mess which lead to the Dance of the Dragons (and someone could say to the Blackfyres and so on), he abused his power when it came to the Gift case and I am sure that we will learn more things.

[Barrick Eddon]

No, the status quo wasn't working, because the Watch was declining.

It wasn't the fault of the Targaryens that the Watch was undermanned (the only conceivable way they could have impacted that would be if the pacifying of the Seven Kingdoms dramatically reduced the number of prisoners of war being sent there, but if that was the case, that's a clear institutional problem, not the Targaryens' fault, if the Watch declines merely because the Seven Kingdoms are less violent).

The fundamental problem with the Watch is that nobody wants to do the job.

Less violent :rofl: . The Seven KIngdoms were very violent with mass wars and mass casualties during only 300 years of it's existence .

[HexMachina]

Less violent :rofl: . The Seven KIngdoms were very violent with mass wars and mass casualties during only 300 years of it's existence .

Yeah, because things were so much less violent before the Targaryens....they certainly made things no worse, in terms of war, and it sounds like there was a great deal less

[Colonel Green]

Less violent . The Seven KIngdoms were very violent with mass wars and mass casualties during only 300 years of it's existence .

I was merely speculating on that. And if the Targaryens didn't decrease the amount of warfare, then there's really no conceivable impact they could have had on the Night's Watch.

I doubt those 10,000 men during Aegon's reign wanted to do it either but there they were.

The general sense we get of the Night's Watch in the books is that its current state is to do with your average Westerosi (even in the North) no longer taking the concept of the Others seriously. Which isn't really surprising, since it's been several thousand years, but it's kind of implausible that this decline occurred only over basically the last 300 years, which seems to be the case (particularly as the unified government of the Seven Kingdoms, even if it didn't focus much on the Watch, could scarcely have cared less about it than the governments of the six rival kingdoms prior to the Conquest).

Exactly! He doesn't seem so "great" now. Ok he disbanded the Faith militant and stopped the war and created Kingsroad. But even if he *stopped* first night it really didn't stopped, at the North and Dragonstone as far as we know, he created all the mess which lead to the Dance of the Dragons (and someone could say to the Blackfyres and so on), he abused his power when it came to the Gift case and I am sure that we will learn more things.

I have no idea how you could read Jaehaerys' section and think it shows he wasn't a great king. So not everyone follows the law in the North; so what? It's still a huge step, and now the Boltons have to hide their behaviour rather than practise it openly (and the Umbers, if you believe Roose). Jaehaerys had nothing to do with the Dance of the Dragons. The gift wasn't an "abuse of power".

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I have no idea how you could read Jaehaerys' section and think it shows he wasn't a great king. So not everyone follows the law in the North; so what? It's still a huge step, and now the Boltons have to hide their behaviour rather than practise it openly (and the Umbers, if you believe Roose). Jaehaerys had nothing to do with the Dance of the Dragons. The gift wasn't an "abuse of power".

Not only in the North, not even his family followed his so called law. He chose a man over the rightful woman and he created the precedent which lead to the Dance and yes when you make someone to "donate" his lands because you decided it, it is an abuse of power.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

I'm actually a little confused by the Lords of Winterfell. Lord Ellard should be the Lord when Alysanne and Jaehaerys visit the Wall, which iirc should be sometime around 90-100AC. In 131AC, Cregan Stark is the Lord of Winterfell during the Dance of Dragons. In 101AC Ellard is still the Lord. So in the space of only 30 years we have a Lord Benjen Stark and his son Rickon Stark assuming the Lordship, before passing to Cregan. That is quite a number of Lords in (at the very most) 30 years.

Well we have some precedent of Lords of Winterfell dropping like flies from time to time (with lords dying in the Skagos rebellion, against the Ironborn and at Long Lake, all in a relatively short time period), so that could be the explanation. Another explanation outside of unnatural deaths, though, is how old Ellard was. If he lived to be very old then there could easily be that sort of turnover in about 30 years without it being that odd (as his son, for example, would already be getting up there in age)

[Colonel Green]

Not only in the North, not even his family followed his so called law. He chose a man over the rightful woman and he created the precedent which lead to the Dance and yes when you make someone to "donate" his lands because you decided it, it is an abuse of power.

The fact that the abolition of the first night is still celebrated rather obviously indicates that it did mark a big change. Jaehaerys set the precedent that the king can choose his own heir. And it's the king's responsibility to provide for the Wall and the security of the realm, which he tried to do by disposing of lands that he's ultimately sovereign over; that's nothing more than the principle of eminent domain, which is an established part of our own national laws today.

Well we have some precedent of Lords of Winterfell dropping like flies from time to time (with lords dying in the Skagos rebellion, against the Ironborn and at Long Lake, all in a relatively short time period), so that could be the explanation. Another explanation outside of unnatural deaths, though, is how old Ellard was. If he lived to be very old then there could easily be that sort of turnover in about 30 years without it being that odd (as his son, for example, would already be getting up there in age)

Being Lord of Winterfell definitely seems like a high-turnover job.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

The fact that the abolition of the first night is still celebrated rather obviously indicates that it did mark a big change. Jaehaerys set the precedent that the king can choose his own heir. And it's the king's responsibility to provide for the Wall and the security of the realm, which he tried to do by disposing of lands that he's ultimately sovereign over; that's nothing more than the principle of eminent domain, which is an established part of our own national laws today.

Not really. What happens in public doesn't mean that really happens. As I said before in his own castle his law had no power. No, he chose a man over the woman he created the chaos. Forcing someone to give up his property is abuse of power enough said. The lands belonged to house Stark and he chose to steal their lands.

[H0X0]

Exactly! He doesn't seem so "great" now. Ok he disbanded the Faith militant and stopped the war and created Kingsroad. But even if he *stopped* first night it really didn't stopped, at the North and Dragonstone as far as we know, he created all the mess which lead to the Dance of the Dragons (and someone could say to the Blackfyres and so on), he abused his power when it came to the Gift case and I am sure that we will learn more things.

The dance starters w/ Viserys I marrying Allicent High tower and breeding a succession crisis. And the Blackfyre rebellions stem from a succession crisis that's squarely the fault of Aegon IV a generation after Jaehaerys. Indeed Jaehaerys dealt rather well with generating to many heirs in his long reign.

That said, no monarch (real or asoif) has ever really been "great". I think one thing the series demonstrates well of how terrible family rule is. But, in 55 years of rule, the most heinous crimes are one instance of extraregultory taking, a tacit endorsement of salic succession, and a spottily enforced edict, you have to say that on balance (and certainly by comparison) that Jaehaerys was a good king.