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[TWoIaF Spoilers] Timeline Errors


creganstark

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By the way, are we to take it now that the "Andals invade Westeros in 6000 BC" thing is out the window? Clearly they can't have been displaced by Valyria before Valyria even existed. Or are we thinking that the 5000 BC founding date for Valyria from ASoS erroneous?


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Old Ghis is said to have fallen five thousand years ago, but nothing's said of Valyria's founding there. There is no founding date for Valyria given, although our maester suggests that the civilization arose somewhere after the Long Night.

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  • 1 month later...

In order to defeat the Ghiscari empire decisively, Valyrians probably needed 200 year old dragons which were the F-35's of the skies. To develop and use such complicated weapons, Valyrians needed lots of centuries for R&D.



We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.



This suggests that there were Valyrians coming to Westeros to trade with elder races in the Dawn Age.


Valyria has rich but dangerous mines. Valyrians needed slave labor to mine those resources and with those resources, they could capture new slaves with raiding. I think the Valyrians started slavery much before they trained dragons. The Andals fled Essos when the Valyrians trained the dragons and demonstrated their power. I see no reason why we should dismiss the Andal invasion happening 6000 years ago.


In fact, we should now call it Andal migration.

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I have two possible solutions to the problem that I'll throw at Anne and George again.

After a rereading of both the series and twoiaf it seems no error at all. Aeron mentions harrag as driftwood king and twoiaf says that under the rule of the black blood there were some fierce warriors like in the age of heroes LIKE harrag and his son.

They only only served as an example of glory from older days. If you add that aeron said harrag was chosen by a kingsmoot you know it is likely that theon stark fought them. So no error at all.

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It is clear that Andals came to Westeros after the end of the Ghiscari Wars, as Valyria apparently only then turned his gaze westward. That would mean that 4,000 years ago is a much better estimation for the arrival than 6,000 years ago. Volantis would have been the first colony founded in the West after the Ghiscari Wars, and it seems that Valyrians were only able to put pressure on the Andals - and cross the Rhoyne in great strength - after Volantis was founded and secured.



Andal settlements on the eastern coasts should have been more or less secure until the foundation of Myr on the mainland.



In the North we know that Qarlon the Great dared to challenged Norvos, and was then put down by the Valyrians. I assume that could have occurred about 4,200-4,100 years ago, heralding Andal decline in Essos...


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It is clear that Andals came to Westeros after the end of the Ghiscari Wars, as Valyria apparently only then turned his gaze westward. That would mean that 4,000 years ago is a much better estimation for the arrival than 6,000 years ago. Volantis would have been the first colony founded in the West after the Ghiscari Wars, and it seems that Valyrians were only able to put pressure on the Andals - and cross the Rhoyne in great strength - after Volantis was founded and secured.

Andal settlements on the eastern coasts should have been more or less secure until the foundation of Myr on the mainland.

In the North we know that Qarlon the Great dared to challenged Norvos, and was then put down by the Valyrians. I assume that could have occurred about 4,200-4,100 years ago, heralding Andal decline in Essos...

Not likely. If the Valyrians reached Westeros in the Dawn Age, then they should have looked West much before than that.

What we should assume is that Andal migration/exodus started 6000 years ago and continued for at least 2000 years.

I think Valyrians started slavery much before than they trained dragons, probably soon after the LN. They needed slave labor for their rich mines.

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No one ever said that the guys in the Dawn Age really were Valyrians. The black stone on Battle Island does not look Valyrian after all. Those people hanging out there before/during/after the Long Night could have been Asshai'i or Ghiscari (the latter are explicitly mentioned).



Not to mention that we do not exactly know when exactly the first written source from Oldtown dates back to (and thus we don't really know when those people came - the knowledge about those Eastern people trading with the Children/giants could only be rumors/fairy-tales). The Valyrians may have been there before the Andals came, in their very early past, as traders and explorers, but nothing suggests that the Valyrians would have been there/had to have been there 7,000-8,000 years ago.



If the Long Night was 6,000 years ago, then Valyrian could have been founded shortly thereafter. Nothing suggests that it was already around at that time, whereas Ghis clearly existed prior to and after the Long Night. While the Ghiscari Empire held sway, Valyria most likely had neither the resources nor the interest to expand in the West, and thus it makes no sense to assume that the Valyrians could have triggered the Andal Exodus to Westeros prior to the end of the Ghiscari Wars - not to mention that the Valyrians would have been forced to use all available resources during the Five Wars, and invest even more in rebuilding and securing the conquered lands and holdings thereafter.



We also learn from Yandel that the Valyrians learned the art of slavery from the Ghiscari, and that the Ghiscari were also the first people the Valyrians enslaved, effectively confirming that there was no Valyrian slavery prior to the subjugation of the Ghiscari.



There is also a pretty big hint that the southern coast of Essos - and Essos in general - was once much more populated, and that the Valyrians annihilated countless peoples in their never-ending hunger for new slaves. Practicality demands that the Valyrians first turned to the peoples close to their own borders, both in the east and the west, before they extended into the reaches of the far west.


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Who said that the sheep-herding and later dragontaming Valyrians were the only people lived in Valyria? I think they were slaves to these other Valyrians who were exploiting the riches of Fourteen Flames but didnot have dragons. The sheep-herding Valyrians discovered a magical way to tame dragons and brought the doom to their masters. Sound familiar? That is how the FM brought the doom to their slaving masters. Dragontaming Valyrians reaped what they sowed.



In the quote, it is clearly mentioned that there are runic records confirming that people lived in Oldtown. Also the maesters who lived with the CotF confirm that in fragmentary accounts. Given that the CotF live very long and their wisemen have access to almost anything, I see no reason to dismiss the idea of people coming to Oldtown to trade with elder races.



What I do not buy is that Valyrians learned slavery from the Ghiscari. That is not supported by anything.


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Yandel said so. He has access to the sources, you do not. You cannot twist the text to fit your needs.



I do not doubt that people did live in the regions of Oldtown, but you don't get from 'we don't know who founded House Hightower when' to 'they are 8,000 years old and descended from the Valyrians'.



I do not doubt that the Valyrians visited Oldtown, but we simply don't know when they came, nor have we any reason to believe that they were there prior to, during, or shortly after the Long Night, since nothing suggests that they were already a power back then.


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It is clear that Andals came to Westeros after the end of the Ghiscari Wars, as Valyria apparently only then turned his gaze westward. That would mean that 4,000 years ago is a much better estimation for the arrival than 6,000 years ago. Volantis would have been the first colony founded in the West after the Ghiscari Wars, and it seems that Valyrians were only able to put pressure on the Andals - and cross the Rhoyne in great strength - after Volantis was founded and secured.

Andal settlements on the eastern coasts should have been more or less secure until the foundation of Myr on the mainland.

In the North we know that Qarlon the Great dared to challenged Norvos, and was then put down by the Valyrians. I assume that could have occurred about 4,200-4,100 years ago, heralding Andal decline in Essos...

Actually, the world book states that the blind priests came to Lorath 1322 years before the Doom (1424 BC), and that before that, the Lorathi Isles were uninhabited for only a little more than a century, so the war of Qarlon against the Valyrians was sometime around 1530 BC. And if the Andals were so mighty that they ruled the entire northeast of Essos at that time, they wouldn't have to flee to Westeros. I think they definetly came to Westeros after the burning of the Lorathi Isles, in fact, that may have been the cause for them to leave Essos (along with simultaneos attacks by Valyrians against Andals further south, for example the original Andal town at Myr). So at the very earliest, the Andals came to Westeros in 1530 BC.

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  • 1 year later...

This is a thread ive been trying to build a time line in that i welcome every one taking part in, cutting and re-pasting or altering to help in a group project. I use information about the Riverlands as a back bone and add cross referenced stories to it in another color. 

I welcome discussions on all things such as Theon Stark, Qhored Hoare, Valyria and more. What i have put up may have inaccuracies or sections up for debate :) 

I have Theon place with Qhored, but at what time this is is left open by the debate over the length of House Teague's rule. I have 800 years about accounted for leading up to that time, all dependent on Teague rule. Did the Teague's rule a couple hundred years, a thousand, or a couple thousand. This is important in my time thread as it also helps place the Andal Invasion. Which to make the Andal Invasion 6000 years ago, the Teague would have to rule for about 5000 years, making them the longest ruling house in the Riverlands who ruled during not stop rebellions from what were told, hardly sounding like a strong basis for ruling for 5000 years. 

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I have two possible solutions to the problem that I'll throw at Anne and George again.

I kind of assumed George was personally letting some of these things through as his building up the Idea that the Maesters may be wrong/ lying/ and or controlling history and that we the reader must make the leap on our own in figuring it out. Especially being that we the reader have made it harder for George to sneak things by, this may be his way of keeping us confused for the sake of the big reveal later. I may be wrong though as i seem to have differing ideas on many things.

 

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In order to defeat the Ghiscari empire decisively, Valyrians probably needed 200 year old dragons which were the F-35's of the skies. To develop and use such complicated weapons, Valyrians needed lots of centuries for R&D.

 

 

 

We can state with certainty, however, that men have lived at the mouth of the Honeywine since the Dawn Age. The oldest runic records confirm this, as do certain fragmentary accounts that have come down to us from maesters who lived amongst the children of the forest. One such, Maester Jellicoe, suggests that the settlement at the top of Whispering Sound began as a trading post, where ships from Valyria, Old Ghis, and the Summer Isles put in to replenish their provisions, make repairs, and barter with the elder races, and that seems as likely a supposition as any.

 

 

 

This suggests that there were Valyrians coming to Westeros to trade with elder races in the Dawn Age.

 

 

 

Valyria has rich but dangerous mines. Valyrians needed slave labor to mine those resources and with those resources, they could capture new slaves with raiding. I think the Valyrians started slavery much before they trained dragons. The Andals fled Essos when the Valyrians trained the dragons and demonstrated their power. I see no reason why we should dismiss the Andal invasion happening 6000 years ago.

 

 

 

In fact, we should now call it Andal migration.

But in this same section, the Maester concede that the foundation of the Hightowers is different than that of Valyria's. He makes the leap in assuming Asshai, he just never connects it to the Empire of the Dawn. Which IMO seems more likely as the Empire of the Dawn seems to be the predecessors to Valyria. Even if it's only in the sense of how the Greeks come before the Romans while never actually having a genetic tie between them. Though i like to believe there is a genetic tie between the two cultures.

As i try to point out in this thread

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/136202-a-river-of-time-group-project-new-proof-settling-when-andals-arrived/

using the Riverlands as a back bone of history (in black), you can see where Roland I Arryn falls in the time line. Him being the grandson to Ser Artys. Only 1100 years are accountable leading that far back. Any farther placement seeming dependent on the length of House Teagues rule. Which not much is mentioned about other than constant rebellion. So, did they rule for 900ish years? or 5100 years? Making them by far the oldest ruling house in the Riverlands. I personally have a hard time excepting they ruled for over 1000 years. So i believe the Andal Invasion, or at least the take over of the Vale was 2000 years ago or less.

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Oh, and Roland I Arryn being the 2nd to rule the Vale would work well into the story of Alyssa Arryn having most of her family murdered in front of her. Alyssa could have been Ser Arty's wife, while there son was murdered in front of her, but her grandson having escaped and ruled after. Just an idea.

Roland beginning construction on the Vale and the Statue there in her honor may have been placed there by Roland him self

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After reading The World of Ice and Fire, I started to put together a timeline of the history of Westeros before Aegon the Conqueror. While doing this, I came upon two major inconsistencies which made creating an accurate timeline impossible:

 

 

 

The first revolves around Qhored the Cruel and Theon the Hungry Wolf

 

 

 

In the section on the Iron Islands, it is stated that Qhored I "The Cruel" of House Hoare, Greyiron or Blacktyde ruled during the age of the Driftwood Kings. During his reign, the Ironmen were at the apex of their power. He sacked Oldtown and defeated the river king Bernarr II, forcing him to bend the knee. He also took his sons as hostages and killed them three years later.

 

 

 

In the riverlands section however, we learn that Bernarr II was the last king of the Justman dynasty, which has ruled the riverlands for 300 years. Before Benedict the Just, the first of the Justmans, came into power, there were "centuries" of warring and bloodshed, which were started by the Andal invasion of the riverlands after they had completed their conquest of the vale.

 

 

 

Now several centuries pass, and Urron Redhand slaughters the attendants of the last kingsmoot, thus ending the age of the Driftwood Kings and beginning the Age of the Iron Kings, the Greyiron dynasty. The text about the Iron Kings tells of the coming of the Andals, and later on of the Andal conquest of the Iron Islands. Now the wiki tells us that the Andals conquered the Iron Islands about 2000 years after first coming to Westeros, and that they ended the rule of House Greyiron, which ruled for over a 1000 years. This explains how Qhored the cruel could have killed the sons of Bernarr II, who ruled at least 500 years after the Andal invasion, but still, the section on Qhored tells of the First Men, who were no seafarers and fled the coast, while the part about the Iron Kings tells us, that only now the Andals came and built ships and defended the coasts. This is a bit contradictory.

 

 

 

Now after House Greyiron was extinguished, House Hoare ruled the Iron Islands. After a long period of decline, the nadir being the rule of the three Harmunds, there was a period of recovery, stated to be "centuries". In this time, Harrag Hoare and his son Ravos the Raper ruled Bear Island and Cape Kraken, until they were driven out by Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf.

 

 

 

So in conclusion, the timeline of the events should go like this:

 

 

 

-The Andals come (according to the Wiki and the riverlands section)

 

 

 

-Qhored the Cruel conquers the Riverlands and ends the line of House Justman, which ruled centuries after the Andal conquest according to the riverlands section, but in the time of the First Men according to the Iron Islands section

 

 

 

-The age of Driftwood Kings ends, the age of the Iron Kings begins (and will endure for 1000 years)

 

 

 

-The Andals come (according to the Iron Islands section), marking the beginning of the decline of the Ironmen

 

 

 

-The Andals conquer the Iron Islands, ending House Greyiron. House Hoare becomes the new royal dynasty

 

 

 

-Harrag Hoare and Ravos the raper are defeated by Theon the Hungry Wolf. This probably happens around 2000 years after the coming of the Andals ("centuries" of war in the riverlands, 300 years of Justman rule in the riverlands until they are ended by Qhored the cruel, some other Driftwood Kings rule, 1000 years of House Greyiron rule, the decline of the Iron Islands up to the three Harmunds, and at least some other Hoare kings after them)

 

 

 

Now in the chapter about the North, we learn a lot about Theon Stark. Some of his major accomplishments were:

 

-defeating the invading Andals, even attacking their homeland in Essos

 

-conquers the Three Sisters (most likely the Rape of the Sisters, or just a later attack in the resulting 1000 year war against the Arryns of the Vale) and lands an army on the Fingers

 

-drives the Ironborn under Harrag Hoare from the North and kills his son Ravos the Raper

 

 

 

This messes up the whole timeline. In the Vale chapter, we learn that the War against the North only started at least two hundred years after the Andal Conquest, because we learn of all the Arryn kings and their deeds before the war (Roland II, Osric V, Hugh the Fat, Alester II and so on...). Now of course the Andals could have only started attacking the North hundreds of years after their conquest of the Vale, but it is a bit unlikely. Furthermore, we already know from the riverlands and vale section that Harrag Hoare and Ravos the Raper probably lived at least 2000 years after the Andal invasion. And this can't be, because Theon Stark fought both against the invading Andals and Harrag Hoare. So there we have the paradox of Qhored the Cruel and Theon the Hungry Wolf.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The second timeline error I've noticed is in the history of the Stormlands and of Dorne.

 

 

 

Much emphasis was put on the many many "King Durran"s there were in the early history of the Stormlands. In fact, Durran XXIV first made peace with the Andals by marrying an Andal maiden.

 

 

 

Now we know the Andals came long before the Rhoynar, in fact, House Martell is an Andal house. But in the chapter about the Coming of the Rhoynar to Dorne, we learn that after Nymeria and Mors Martell defeated the rival Dornish kings, Nymeria later on held off three invasions: one by King Greydon of the Reach and two by King Durran III of the Stormlands. But because we know that Durran XXIV lived during the Andal invasion, this can't be.

See ive never understood the necessity for the Vale to be secured by the Andals for attacks to be made on any other part of Westeros. The Andals being sea faring folk comparable to the Vikings could easily have launched multiple raids led by different petty kings all up and down the coast of Westeros at the same time. Further more, they could have sailed right past the coast up the rivers, just like the Vikings did. Cutting right up the Bay of crabs and up in to the Trident, they could then take any of the 3 rivers to launch deep inland attacks on the Westerlands, the Neck and against the Ironborn, alll before ever securing the Vale. 

Further more, it seems that the Andal Invasion happened over many centuries in successive waves. So i dont really see a problem with Qhored Hoare and Theon Stark. 

Further, discussing Qhored with some one else, it was pointed out that Qhored may not have been a Hoare at all. That name being placed on some one later during the Hoare rule (After taking out the GreyIron line). That person being a Blacktyde or a GreyIron. 

The other alternative, is that Qhored was a Hoare and that his placement is wrong. His placement should be after House GreyIron fell as the text implies the Iron born houses making common cause with the Andals to take out House GreyIron. Possibly suggesting the Hoares are Andals. Relating to their Black Hair and eyes and heart as signs of the Andal taint. Suggesting these traits are not common among the first men, and yet they actually are. Through house Durrandon were given the likely hood of the Durrandon line having this same Black hair and eyes feature picked up by the Baratheons (who are Valyrian/Targaryen) who took to wife a daughter of the last Durrandon Kings. As is said, "the seed is strong".

Now if the Hoare's were a first men house to begin with, why would taking an Andal wife secure them the driftwood crown? It makes more sense to me that the Hoare's are actually Andals who took to wife a daughter of the last GreyIron King. Adopting the Black hair from them most likely (GreyIron's).  

Further proof i think of twisting (by maesters or drowned priest) is in the Greyjoy's. I dont recall any ties from the Greyjoy' to House Hoare or GreyIron (i could have missed it though), and yet house Greyjoy also has black eyes and hair shown in Euron. The Greyjoy's do trace back to the GreyKing tho as do House GreyIron. 

So, again i think House Hoare are Andals who likely didnt have dark hair and eyes to start as are not common among the Andals as shown through House Arryn's line.

So based on accounts, the capability to sail upriver and launch attacks deep inland, and the ability to launch multiple ships to different areas all along the coast at the same time, coupled with the fact the history shows this all happening over at least a couple centuries to say the least. It is highly possible that one of the very earliest Andal invasions sailed right past the Vale and up the Trident to invade much further inland before later Invasions landed in the Vale fueled under more ferver apparently through either religious reasons or escape from Valyria. Either way, the later Invasions happened under much greater force and lasting influence.

This would explain why there seems to be an Andal Ironborn connection hinted at many times through many clues. Im still working out the details of how i think the Grey King and Durran God's Grief connect back to Hugor of the Hill, but i think im getting close. I rather like the idea of the first men of the lands we call the Iron Islands were not actually Islands yet but rather part of main land Westeros. The Islands forming sometime after the Grey King comes along and puts an end to all the Petty kings (rock and salt) to make him self new "High King" over all the Islands. This i wonder to be the very start of the Andal Invasion, the first "adventurer". Maybe proto-Andals? This exact part im still working out.  One has to assume such a close proximity to the Rhoynar must have led to a mingling of the peoples. If the people split from a same source and came together later to mate and mix again, this could explain the differences between the early Andals to the Andals we see later. Or maybe there was mixing with the Valyrians.

This happened with real people too. We all stem from Africa and have split to go our unique ways. As we mix, we reintroduce these spit genes back together in a new way. Thus creating Hybred from two purebreds. The Purebreds still having a common ancestor to begin with.

All of the things i have mentioned i think are shown in our own real world through examples such as the Vikings and Genetics and so on. Not to mention textual evidence with in the books for these same things to be happening.

Note also that you can sail right up the Blackwater to the Gods Eye, or all the way down the Tumble, pick up your boats and walk to the next river, sailing down to the Eastern Coast to attack allll along any where you wanted. You can even sail back up the mander after securing a small Island as a launching base. Point is, a sea faring people can attack any wheres.

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, the section on Qhored tells of the First Men, who were no seafarers and fled the coast, while the part about the Iron Kings tells us, that only now the Andals came and built ships and defended the coasts. This is a bit contradictory.

 

 

 Isn't this a contradiction though too about the Iron born to begin with? The First men weren't seafarers..... so how did the Iron born get to the Iron Islands to begin with? If the Iron born are "First Men" and learned to build boats, then why couldn't the other First Men? Especially if the history we're given is for the most part proper, then the First Men had plenty of time to learn something as simple as a boat. 

If the Iron born are from across the sunset sea, then that opens up the possibility that land lies not too far out, and could be possibly the Grey Waste. Though Maesters have alll disregarded this, even the ones who have spent time among them. Yet again, why didn't the "First Men" pick up on boats? I mean, people have been building boats for since early migratory times. Look at the Aborigine people or Alaskan natives. 

There is an alternative idea that iv'e wondered, built off of other ideas obviously. What if the Iron Islands weren't Islands to begin with? What if the First men simply walked into those lands and then later they became Islands, look at the Greyjoy's castle Pyke. Could the Andals have been the first Seafarers all along? I've put forward else where a seeming connection between the Andals and the Ironborn, along with the Grey King, Durran Gods Grief, and Hugor of the Hill (Possibly Huzhor Amai. Look at the names, Hugor could be Hukko, so then too could they be Hugor, Hukko, Huzhor Amai, and Azor Ahai.), all of which seem to tie back to the Sea, Mermaids, Son of the Last Fisher Queen and so on. I could list soooo many more connections. 

There seems to be more than a little off with the tales about the Iron Islands and it's people either way though. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I told George that this would happen, but he said I'd be the only one to notice it. :P

 

Heh.

 

Yes, there's an inconsistency. I'm now going to point our editor to this very post and see if the next print can't get this fixed.

Now the wiki tells us that the Andals conquered the Iron Islands about 2000 years after first coming to Westeros, and that they ended the rule of House Greyiron

What do you guys base this dating off of? Is this off textual evidence in the books, or some thing known that we dont? or just your own theorizing? Im trying to go over everything and this part im a lil lost on. 

His mentioning about the period after House Mudd i think is just a play on words, tho i could be wrong. The text says that after house Mudd the Andal Kings fought among them selves for the Riverlands, many claiming it but centuries passing before any one was worthy of the 2 titles listed as most didn't hold enough land to be worthy of the title. 

One, no rulers after held the 2 titles listed, not even House Tully. 

Two, it goes on  to list Justman. This could very well mean he is merely one of these Andal Kings who claimed the title, despite not holding enough lands to deserve the title. This would make sense to me as only House Tully has since really held the whole of the Riverlands.

Meaning that "centuries" could be meant soley in this context, and not in the context of centuries passed between House Mudd and House Justman.

If you can answer any of this that would be awesome, if not i understand why not. :)

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