[TWOIAF SPOILERS] Is Mushroom a stab or nod to the crackpot theories?

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

I have a real hard time believing a teenager seduced a 30 something year old and was able to take advantage of him

[glamourweaver]

I have a real hard time believing a teenager seduced a 30 something year old and was able to take advantage of him

Wait, which 30 something year old do you mean? Because even in Mushroom's account, Damon initiates everything with Rhaenyra - she's under his sway. Cole rejected her. Strong would be the only one who she might have been the initiator of an affair with.

[complexphoenix]

I have a real hard time believing a teenager seduced a 30 something year old and was able to take advantage of him

Are you referring to Ser Criston? Nowhere in the text does it say she succeeded with him. She tried to seduce him and failed, because he was too much of a prude to go there. Still, her attempts so disturbed him that they left a lasting impact.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Are you referring to Ser Criston? Nowhere in the text does it say she succeeded with him. She tried to seduce him and failed, because he was too much of a prude to go there. Still, her attempts so disturbed him that they left a lasting impact.

I do not think the crowning of a queen of love and beauty is an empty gesture. Criston crowns Rhaenyra so I don't know if she failed... But the kingsguard are celibate, so maybe he felt since he made her break his oaths, he would break the oath that she would be heir.

But the Harwin and Joffrey violence seems to agree more with your points. The full version should shed more light.

EDIT: Nevermind he never crowned her Qof L&B.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

While I'm a person who does not think there is a literal dragon nor dragon eggs in Winterfell**, I do want to point out that Vermax was not the only known dragon to visit Winterfell.

In TWoIaF, Mushroom claimed in his Testimony that Vermax left a clutch of eggs somewhere in the depths of Winterfell's Crypts (Winterfell Chapter of TWoIaF).

I'm currently in my second complete read through of the series. I'm about halfway through (or so) in ASoS. In ASoS, Chapter 41 (Jon V), Jon is telling Ygritte about Queenscrown Tower...and Jon says this:

A queen stayed there for a night.” Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. “Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He’s called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she’d worn when she spent the night among them.

Based on the bolded part of the above quote, we now know at least seven (7) dragons visited Winterfell.

**Unless Rhaegar had an egg and it will be found in Lyanna's tomb along with their marriage cloaks and Rhaegar's harp.

[Edd fetch me the boo box]

Given the geological, and almost certainly volcanic activity under Winterfell, most likely deep below the ground, maybe there's a cavern with a dragon or two in it way way way below the crypts.

[glamourweaver]

I do not think the crowning of a queen of love and beauty is an empty gesture. Criston crowns Rhaenyra so I don't know if she failed... But the kingsguard are celibate, so maybe he felt since he made her break his oaths, he would break the oath that she would be heir.

But the Harwin and Joffrey violence seems to agree more with your points. The full version should shed more light.

EDIT: Nevermind he never crowned her Qof L&B.

No question Criston loved her and later hated her - but whether that love was sexual desire that he would have acted on if not for his oaths, that's an open question. We don't know the man save by others conflicting accounts.

Obviously adult men sexually desiring teenage girls and acting on that desire is completely normalized in Westeros society, a fact the series makes no small effort to rub the reader's noses in.

[Gabfest]

Immediately when I read I thought Mushroom was a nod to the fans hence some of its statements are true, some not, some way over the top concerning some characters abilities or plot. Like when we like a character so much (ex: Syrio ) we won't believe his death or want him/her to warg dragons or be azor ahai (Dany, Jon, Bran). Eventually some of those things will happen or won't.

[teemo]

I don't know, really confuses me and makes me think though. I believe a lot of what Mushroom says though.

[Equilibrium]

I like how perpetrator of crazy theories is rumored to have huge member because it's nice reflection of reality

Case in point my crackpot theories :D

[SeanF]

I have a real hard time believing a teenager seduced a 30 something year old and was able to take advantage of him

Ser Criston rejected her advances.

However, it's strange he should come to hate her for it. It's hardly unknown for teenage girls to become infatuated with older men, or for older men to politely decline their advances, but without hating them. Maybe Rhaenyra got to the point where she was threatening him, if he didn't sleep with her.

[complexphoenix]

Ser Criston rejected her advances.

However, it's strange he should come to hate her for it. It's hardly unknown for teenage girls to become infatuated with older men, or for older men to politely decline their advances, but without hating them. Maybe Rhaenyra got to the point where she was threatening him, if he didn't sleep with her.

Ser Criston was, according to Mushroom, "as chaste and virtuous as an aged septa", i.e. the man was prudish to an extreme degree. He may have joined the Kingsguard in the first place because it would excuse him from ever needing to have sex. A man with that level of sexphobia would probably have a much more powerfully negative reaction to an attempted seduction than one who was psychologically normal. He may even have been traumatized by it. At any rate, it explains his behavior perfectly, both at Rhaenyra's wedding tourney and in the matter of the succession after Viserys died.

[Parizad]

Cole wanted Rhaenyra but had to reject her because he didn't want to break his oaths. Rhaenyra though takes another lover to spite him and marries someone Cole hates. Cole feel enraged and his love for Rhaenyra turns into hatred. Hence his bahviour at princess' wedding tourney and later his king making. It happens with many rejected lovers that they start hating their loved one because they cannot be with them.

[complexphoenix]

Cole wanted Rhaenyra but had to reject her because he didn't want to break his oaths. Rhaenyra though takes another lover to spite him and marries someone Cole hates. Cole feel enraged and his love for Rhaenyra turns into hatred. Hence his bahviour at princess' wedding tourney and later his king making. It happens with many rejected lovers that they start hating their loved one because they cannot be with them.

I'm more inclined to think it was sexphobia, both because Mushroom says it was and I don't see why Mushroom would distort the tale if Criston rejected her out of honor, and also because of the speech we see Criston giving to the small council early in TPatQ, where he predicts that Rhaenyra's bastard sons will "turn the Red Keep into a brothel" and goes on about how awful this would be, seemingly implying that this is worth overturning the late King's will, and possibly fighting a war over, to prevent. What kind of man gives this as his stated motive? A guy with serious issues around sex.

[glamourweaver]

I'm more inclined to think it was sexphobia, both because Mushroom says it was and I don't see why Mushroom would distort the tale if Criston rejected her out of honor, and also because of the speech we see Criston giving to the small council early in TPatQ, where he predicts that Rhaenyra's bastard sons will "turn the Red Keep into a brothel" and goes on about how awful this would be, seemingly implying that this is worth overturning the late King's will, and possibly fighting a war over, to prevent. What kind of man gives this as his stated motive? A guy with serious issues around sex.

Or someone using inflamatory language about the corruption of the opposition "turn [x] into a brothel" is found all over medieval and early modern political rhetoric. I mean, obviously there was a lot of vilification of sex involved, but it doesn't indicate an attitude MORE condemning of sex than the cultural norm.

[SeanF]

Or someone using inflamatory language about the corruption of the opposition "turn [x] into a brothel" is found all over medieval and early modern political rhetoric. I mean, obviously there was a lot of vilification of sex involved, but it doesn't indicate an attitude MORE condemning of sex than the cultural norm.

The Greens generally had no qualms about describing Rhaenyra as a whore, adulteress, and traitor.

[ChillyPolly]

I have a huge problem with the idea that the "Dragon of Winterfell" is a "crackpot" theory. The "great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame" is something we the readers have (through direct access to Bran/Summer's POV), seen directly.

I have seen people give a thousand speculative reasons why the dragon of Winterfell cannot be real. These people are putting the cart before the horse in terms of rational thought. Instead of basing their view of reality on the evidence of their senses, they are trying to alter the evidence of their senses based on their view of reality. (I speak a bit loosely, of course -- it is all fiction and none of it is real, but within the context of the susension of disbelief which is the first rule of fiction, the general idea is still applicable.)

I have no absolute objections to the idea that perceptions can be mistaken and/or hallucinatory. Take for example Biter's foot-long tongue. Other evidence of the book strongly suggests that it is really the head of Gendry's spear, shoved through the back of Biter's neck. But still, those arguing that the text is wrong need to present better evidence than vague would haves, should haves, and could haves.

I'm talking about ACOK of course. I have no strong opinions as to what extent TWOIAF should be considered canon, or whether we should trust Mushroom. But I am amused by the attempt to explain away those clues in the volume that seem to confirm the Dragon of Winterfell. So that's just GRRM trolling the crackpots, is it?

The argument that the dragon is supposed by some to have caused the hot-springs, thereby proving the dragon is "mythological" and therefore fake, does not wash either. That the locals believe in a dragon is a further clue that it might exist, regardless of whether the locals are correct about the relationship between the dragon and the hot springs.

[Frozentree]

What we got was a vague glimpse from a point of view of a wolf. A dragon appearing is a really big event. Everyone would be talking about it, but we get no references besides that one mention, from one of the least reliable of PoVs possible. How could the dragon just fly away unnoticed by anyone besides Summer? Not even Bran talks about it, why would he not share such hot news with the Reeds and Osha? Summer misinterpreting smoke for a dragon is just much more plausible, I have a dog and I can imagine such images crossing his mind when barking at random things.

[ChillyPolly]

What we got was a vague glimpse from a point of view of a wolf.

Brief? Yes. Vague? No. "a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame" is both specific and highly descriptive. And by baring his teeth at it, Summer shows that he understands it is an actual creature.

A dragon appearing is a really big event.

Not to Summer. To a one-year old Direwolf, sightings of new types of creatures must be a fairly routine occurrence.

Bran does not think in human terms, when he is deep inside Summer. He has apparently forgotten, not only the word for "dragon", but the word for "sword" (man-claw)and "armor" (hard-skin), etc. etc.

Everyone would be talking about it,

The evidence we have is that common folk and perhaps others do indeed routinely talk of such things, but maesters decline to believe them.

but we get no references besides that one mention

There is also the unresolved mystery of what was hidden in the crypts, which frightened Hodor at one particular time but not others. We now have at least 2 more references in TWOIAF, and the denialists are still busy trying to explain them away.

from one of the least reliable of PoVs possible.

We see what Summer sees. What is unreliable about that?

How could the dragon just fly away unnoticed by anyone besides Summer?

How should I know? A thousand different possible ways! Are you not making WAY too many assumptions? Why should a human necessarily see what was visible to Summer for only a moment, when not a single human is visible within Summer's visual range (he can only hear and smell them, with his more-than-human smell and hearing). Do you realize that this takes place at night-time? Do you realize that there is an enormous fire creating an enormous amount of glare, and it is apparently situated right smack between Summer and the humans he smells and hears?

Also, why are you assuming that nobody saw it? There are a host of gargoyles perched on the towers of Winterfell, many of which fell. Are you sure no-one saw a winged gargoyle drop from the one of the towers, only to be confused when it was not followed by any sound of crashing stone hitting the ground below? Can you really make an argument that, if someone had seen it he would certainly have told Rasmay, and Ramsay would certainly have discussed it with Theon? Would Ramsay also discuss with Theon every story about Grumkins and Snarks he happens to hear? Can we even be sure Ramsay did not mention someting like this to Theon? Do we have access to every single conversation that RAmsay and Theon had?

GRRM tells us as much as he wants to tell us an no more. Why do you assume that GRRM would give us any more clues than this, so far?

Not even Bran talks about it, why would he not share such hot news with the Reeds and Osha?

How is that an objection? We know he saw something, and we know he did not tell the Reeds. How you explain that does not have anything to do with whether he saw it or not. Even if he later choses not to trust his memory, or the evidence of his senses, we the reader are still left with the direct evidence of his senses.

Can you prove he has even remembered it so far? Does a wolf-dreamer automatically remember EVERYTHING that took place during his wolf dreams? Did this not occur many many hours before he awakened?

Can you prove he necessarily WOULD discuss it with the Reed even if he did remember it? The Reeds were already doubtful when he told them of Winterfell's burning. Would he think they would believe this?

Perhaps he did tell them, and they did not believe it. Does GRRM include in the text every single conversation that his POV characters have?

Why has Bran told nobody about Jaime pushing him out the tower window?

Summer misinterpreting smoke for a dragon is just much more plausible, I have a dog and I can imagine such images crossing his mind when barking at random things.

You are not even arguing that you have any reason to believe your dog mistakes smoke for creatures. You are just arguing based on imagination.

If anything, a dog is less likely than a human to mistake a shadow or smoke for a creature. They have better night vision, better hearing, better smell, and their visual abilities are more focussed on movement.

[Frozentree]

Brief? Yes. Vague? No. "a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame" is both specific and highly descriptive. And by baring his teeth at it, Summer shows that he understands it is an actual creature.

...

You are not even arguing that you have any reason to believe your dog mistakes smoke for creatures. You are just arguing based on imagination.

If anything, a dog is less likely than a human to mistake a shadow or smoke for a creature. They have better night vision, better hearing, better smell, and their visual abilities are more focussed on movement.

...

We see what Summer sees. What is unreliable about that?

I am not arguing based on my imagination, that was just an anecdote, you should have paid more attention to the remainder of the sentence. I was talking about how dogs stare, bark, growl and otherwise react to random objects. Summer growling at a big dragon and then feeling smug about scaring it away just sounds so incredibly dog-ish to me. I have a dog and I frequent humour sites with running jokes about dogs protecting their masters from evil vacuum cleaners, so to me this is a very natural interpretation of that text. GRRM often includes little details like this without significance to the plot.

But I will completely understand if you'll disagree here with me here.

How should I know? A thousand different possible ways! Are you not making WAY too many assumptions? Why should a human necessarily see what was visible to Summer for only a moment, when not a single human is visible within Summer's visual range (he can only hear and smell them, with his more-than-human smell and hearing). Do you realize that this takes place at night-time? Do you realize that there is an enormous fire creating an enormous amount of glare, and it is apparently situated right smack between Summer and the humans he smells and hears?

Also, why are you assuming that nobody saw it? There are a host of gargoyles perched on the towers of Winterfell, many of which fell. Are you sure no-one saw a winged gargoyle drop from the one of the towers, only to be confused when it was not followed by any sound of crashing stone hitting the ground below? Can you really make an argument that, if someone had seen it he would certainly have told Rasmay, and Ramsay would certainly have discussed it with Theon? Would Ramsay also discuss with Theon every story about Grumkins and Snarks he happens to hear? Can we even be sure Ramsay did not mention someting like this to Theon? Do we have access to every single conversation that RAmsay and Theon had?

And after the event the dragon just disappeared? We had 3 (2 worth in terms of timespan) books since, where did the dragon go? Someone must have seen it since, lot of someones actually. It is not a definite proof, but it is enough to raise a suspicion. We heard about Dany's dragons from many sources, despite seeing them hatch first-hand. Lot of talk about Red Wedding, even though we have seen that one as well. GRRM includes gossip, people simply talk about big events, but not about this one in particular, and I can't help but wonder why.

I am sure nobody would confuse a roaring monstrosity whose wings are strong enough to create wind with a stone gargoyle. Talking about roaring, not even Summer references any sound.

How is that an objection? We know he saw something, and we know he did not tell the Reeds. How you explain that does not have anything to do with whether he saw it or not. Even if he later choses not to trust his memory, or the evidence of his senses, we the reader are still left with the direct evidence of his senses.

Can you prove he has even remembered it so far? Does a wolf-dreamer automatically remember EVERYTHING that took place during his wolf dreams? Did this not occur many many hours before he awakened?

Can you prove he necessarily WOULD discuss it with the Reed even if he did remember it? The Reeds were already doubtful when he told them of Winterfell's burning. Would he think they would believe this?

Perhaps he did tell them, and they did not believe it. Does GRRM include in the text every single conversation that his POV characters have?

Bran is not having dreams at this point, now he was already a full-fledged warg. What would those scouting eagles be for if the warg couldn't recall what they saw with precision? Why would Bran explore caves with Hodor if he couldn't retain trustworthy memories? And he would discuss it with the Reeds because as I stated many times, it is a big thing. Seeing a dragon is not something to wave over. In fact, it would be the first thing he would spill after waking up, with wide eyes and gasping breath.

Edit: Searched a little, it says little to nothing but I feel like it should be here (question number 2) http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Milk_Brothers_Dragons_and_Foreshadowing