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bobbechk

[TWOIAF spoilers] "Burned-men" worshiped Nettles?

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Methinks Dunk and Egg might run into Sheepstealer at some point, which might inspire Aegon's enthusiasm for some fire-breathing enforcers of his own.


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The fact that Yandel doesn't subsequently say "Oh and by the way, the fire witch was Nettles. Surprise!" is entirely in keeping with his writing style.



Yandel is not a really good maester-historian, as he habitually doesn't take up the opportunity to connect some pretty obvious things. For example, he repeatedly talks about the oily/greasy black stone, but only connects the Seastone Chair and the base of the High Tower. You would think that he would have had a section on "Oily black stone found a lot of places, why?"



The reason he doesn't do this (rather, the reason GRRM wouldn't let him do this) is that it's left to the reader's own attention and focus to pick up the clear link.



Yandel says it wasn't known what happened to Nettles until much later. Then he talks about a fire witch with a dragon (she's a "fire witch" because the Mountain clans would see a dragon and be like "wiiiiiiitch!!!"), but doesn't say "Btw, it's Nettles".



This, like the oily stone being found from Asshai, to Yeen, to the Iron Islands, is left for us to connect.



It's Nettles.



ETA: Until we get further evidence (which we might never). Based on what we have, and on Yandel's "analysis" style, it's pretty clearly Nettles.


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Sheepstealer would be Black Dread status huge by now too, or at least Vhagar big, highly noticeable creature.

Only thing I can think of coming from this is if Sheepstealer laid eggs, and they hatched and now somebody has it, or its wild and could possibly be tamed..

That would be fun.

Daenerys lands at the Vale, goes "I Daenerys Targaryen, the Stormborn, the Unburnt, Breaker of Chains, Mother of Dragons, Slayer of Lies, rightful queen of the Andal, the Rhoynar and the First Men have come to claim y throne from..."

*Nettles's great-great-grandchildren arrive riding Sheepstealer and other five huge dragons*

Daenerys: "F*ck this. I'm going back to Essos, where I'm the one cowing people into submission with dragons".

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Yeah I didn't catch this on my first read, but it's definitely Nettles. LOL, no telling what kind of 'gifts' they were bringing her. My guess is that it was not sheep. If she is living in a cave with a dragon she 'commands'. I bet they are past the 'feed him sheep everyday' thing.




It does make me wonder what kind of 'fire-witch' she was, or if it was only the dragonfire they were referring to? Of course it made me think of the fire-mages Dany saw in Qarth, who were building fire ladders in the air.....


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That would be fun.

Daenerys lands at the Vale, goes "I Daenerys Targaryen, the Stormborn, the Unburnt, Breaker of Chains, Mother of Dragons, Slayer of Lies, rightful queen of the Andal, the Rhoynar and the First Men have come to claim y throne from..."

*Nettles's great-great-grandchildren arrive riding Sheepstealer and other five huge dragons*

Daenerys: "F*ck this. I'm going back to Essos, where I'm the one cowing people into submission with dragons".

That would probably be my favorite scene ever. Even without an ice dragon twice the size of the targ dragons swooping in to make Drogon question his dragonhood.

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It does make me wonder what kind of 'fire-witch' she was, or if it was only the dragonfire they were referring to? Of course it made me think of the fire-mages Dany saw in Qarth, who were building fire ladders in the air.....

Not sure why everyone is so sure this "fire witch" is Nettles when we have no evidence of her having any magical powers at all.

I personally think this is a wood witch who has learned a bit of fire magic and has learn to conjure a fake fire dragon out of flames.

I still think other would have seen a dragon the size of Sheepstealer roaming around the Vale.

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Not sure why everyone is so sure this "fire witch" is Nettles when we have no evidence of her having any magical powers at all.

I personally think this is a wood witch who has learned a bit of fire magic and has learn to conjure a fake fire dragon out of flames.

I still think other would have seen a dragon the size of Sheepstealer roaming around the Vale.

You seem to be another person who hasn't read the book but makes ridiculous assumptions about it. It explicitly refers to the dragon she commanded. You can come up with some convoluted crackpot about what you think this means, but the simplest explanation is that the only woman with a dragon who flew off toward the Vale is the woman and dragon being referred to.

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Not sure why everyone is so sure this "fire witch" is Nettles when we have no evidence of her having any magical powers at all.

To a band of backward hill people, a foreign-looking woman with a dragon could easily be called a witch.

I'm also guessing that even said group of backward hill people would still know the difference between a dragon-shaped bit of fire and a real goddamn dragon.

You seem to be another person who hasn't read the book but makes ridiculous assumptions about it. It explicitly refers to the dragon she commanded. You can come up with some convoluted crackpot about what you think this means, but the simplest explanation is that the only woman with a dragon who flew off toward the Vale is the woman and dragon being referred to.

Jesus H., thank you.

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To the O/P very good catch. It sounds like Nettles and it's nice to think she had a happy ending (someone has to),

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Furthermore, it was probably Daemon who pointed the Vale option to Nettles - He knew the area.

SeanF,

I think it's actually Daemon who has the happy ending. All of his children survived the Dance and two of them were to wear the crown. His offspring continued the line (ffs, he's BR's great grandpa) and he got to hang out with the order of Green Men.

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I realize the possibility is remote, but recall Tyrion's chapter from ADWD (I believe it was his) when there was a description of wings flapping overhead but because of the commotion (and dust?) he didn't take the time to actually look and then it was gone. Does the release of the WOIAF and its contents breathe any life into the possibility that it was a dragon flying overhead? I think at first I thought it was Drogon flying on his own but the distance kind of nagged at me.



Now obviously, Nettles is probably long dead by now, but of course that doesn't mean other possibilities don't open up; Sheepstealer could still live, not likely but 'could'.



To me it just seemed odd to have that description in the text if we weren't supposed to be intrigued by it and GRRM doesn't just fill for no reason.


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@Ser Knute: "To me it just seemed odd to have that description in the text if we weren't supposed to be intrigued by it and GRRM doesn't just fill for no reason."



Yes, that's why I think we'll be seeing Nettles and/or Sheepstealer in a Dunk and Egg story.


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It explicitly refers to the dragon she commanded. You can come up with some convoluted crackpot about what you think this means, but the simplest explanation is that the only woman with a dragon who flew off toward the Vale is the woman and dragon being referred to.

100% agree. It's not beyond GRRM at all to throw a curveball down the track with some new "evidence" that shows that, in the end, it wasn't Nettles, BUT: we should work based off the information we do have. Based on that info, it's Nettles.

Same logic applies to any number of theories that have gotten way out of hand, based on "alternative" readings - which is fine, except when they need to blatantly ignore existing knowledge, for them to work.

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Furthermore, it was probably Daemon who pointed the Vale option to Nettles - He knew the area.

SeanF,

I think it's actually Daemon who has the happy ending. All of his children survived the Dance and two of them were to wear the crown. His offspring continued the line (ffs, he's BR's great grandpa) and he got to hang out with the order of Green Men.

I'm not sure I want Prince Daemon to have a happy ending. He wasn't a good man. He despised his wife and her Valemen subjects, and abandoned her to go cheat with other women (even if he didn't love her he could have showed a bit of respect instead of openly insulting her for all to hear), corrupted his underaged niece, manipulated her so he could marry her and become king; he was ambitious and ruthless and showed no gratitude to the older brother and liege who was so good to him and forgived so many of his insults and messes.

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I'm not sure I want Prince Daemon to have a happy ending. He wasn't a good man. He despised his wife and her Valemen subjects, and abandoned her to go cheat with other women (even if he didn't love her he could have showed a bit of respect instead of openly insulting her for all to hear), corrupted his underaged niece, manipulated her so he could marry her and become king; he was ambitious and ruthless and showed no gratitude to the older brother and liege who was so good to him and forgived so many of his insults and messes.

Bad guys get good things same as the good guys with their bad lot. In the end everyone makes their own luck. Daemon played well.

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Furthermore, it was probably Daemon who pointed the Vale option to Nettles - He knew the area.

Good point. Daemon might not have liked the Vale, but he did spend time there (at least in the early stages of his marriage). He could easily have discovered places where a dragon and its rider could hide, when flying on Caraxes over the Vale.

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I'm not sure I want Prince Daemon to have a happy ending. He wasn't a good man. He despised his wife and her Valemen subjects, and abandoned her to go cheat with other women (even if he didn't love her he could have showed a bit of respect instead of openly insulting her for all to hear), corrupted his underaged niece, manipulated her so he could marry her and become king; he was ambitious and ruthless and showed no gratitude to the older brother and liege who was so good to him and forgived so many of his insults and messes.

Not to mention, he arranged for the murder of Helaena's child.

To be fair, Mushroom's account of what Daemon and he did with young Rhaenyra may be a lie. It's designed to show that even at a very young age, Rhaenyra was a dirty little whore. To a modern reader, it's far more a case of a young girl being horribly abused by two adults she loved and trusted.

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Not to mention, he arranged for the murder of Helaena's child.

I haven't mentioned that because it happened right after the death of his own stepson, and because we don't know if he arranged all the details or if the thugs got creative on their own. But yes, it's against him, too.

To be fair, Mushroom's account of what Daemon and he did with young Rhaenyra may be a lie. It's designed to show that even at a very young age, Rhaenyra was a dirty little whore. To a modern reader, it's far more a case of a young girl being horribly abused by two adults she loved and trusted.

Both Mushroom and the septon say that he corrupted her. Mushroom says that he wanted to make her so corrupted that nobody but him would want her, while the septon says that he merely took her to his bed, no other reasons given. But both septon and fool say that he was exiled because of that.

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I think that was clear if you read TPatQ, and made the connection. Especially, as you pointed out, she flew across the Bay of Crabs towards the Vale, and she is the only dragonrider unaccounted for in the Dance.





I think it's actually a fun easter egg/nod to people who've read tPatQ. Other than giving a nifty origin to the Burned Men, I'm not sure how it would come into play in the modern era. But it's definitely interesting for its own sake.




How it plays in the modern era? A girl riding a dragon commanding a following of clansmen, we have a certain Targaryen who matches that description that Tyrion backs.





Yeah I didn't catch this on my first read, but it's definitely Nettles. LOL, no telling what kind of 'gifts' they were bringing her. My guess is that it was not sheep. If she is living in a cave with a dragon she 'commands'. I bet they are past the 'feed him sheep everyday' thing.




I think the gifts could have been akin to the kind Varamyr got from other wildlings, food for starters which she needed to survive, or anything of value taken from raids. Sheep would also make sense since she usually fed Sheepstealer herself.


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