"The Winged Wolf" A Bran Stark Re-read Project - Part 1: AGOT

[BearQueen87]

Hmmm...

I think in order to achieve balance they will have to be destroyed, but also perhaps the dragons and other magical elements that might be consider good as well. I think in the end what might happen is that we'll have to see an end to all the magic, which might mean the demise of more than one of our favorite characters. People can use magic for both good and evil - life and death but there is no one to police them and so it get's out of hand, it's misuse becomes unbalanced and thus the world around them becomes unbalance. It's power and the misuse of it.

That's an interesting idea. How did magic come into the world? Was it always there?

the World book seems to suggest that the seasons weren't always so wonky. That something happened that threw everything off balance and that the Others and Dragons are merely just byproducts of that.I've seen suggestion of something cosmic--like Doreh's moon story actually having some element of truth to it. But I think the answer might be human interference. Humans screw things up, lesson the first in ASOIAF. Humans start experimenting with things that ought not be experimented with--magics and blood and suddenly they mess up their world.

The balance restoration could be the elimination of magic which means both fire and ice have to lose (*tear*)

How differently would we look at Planetos if we had a WW POV?

At the whole of Planetos, I don't know. At certain families of men who have connection to the Others? Possibly very differently. I am very curious what the Others think about the Starks, so to called Kings of Winter. There seems to be a lot of history between these two--erm--peoples and we've seen the Stark perspective for quite awhile now; they have their heroes in Bran the Builder and the Lost Hero who is said to be a Stark. But what do the Others, a group of people who probably have past ties with the Starks, feel about this family?

[Illuminated by Fire]

First of all: Nice analysis and a good starting post.

It's an enslavement of the dead and I personally can't see anything gray about that, to me that's dark, as dark as the enslavement of the slaves of Slaver's Bay. Worst actually, because at least the slaves of SB retain their humanity even if it's depressed by the Master, while the Others steal everything that was ever remotely human from a person. That's as perverse as it gets, IMO.

I disagree here. Enslavement is the wrong word here. To enslave someone the person in question does actually need to be aware of what is happening, people get broken and forced into doing the bidding of someone else. But the people in question are dead and if their personality is gone then the wights are just animated bodies, not enslaved people. If something self-aware of their personality is bound to the wight then I would agree and that certainly could be the case (it is mentioned that the wights who attacked Mormont seem to have some of their memories retained), but if not then they are just profiting from killing people (which is not better).

The more time I spend on this board and the more times I re-read the series, the less certain I am about anything. But for right now, my overall impression is this: The WW's are not "evil" that need to be destroyed. They are, simply, another player in the game of thrones and whatever they want, it conflicts with the desires at large of what we know as Westeros. That's why, ultimately, it does becomes an us vs them mentality. My dearest hope is that we get someone (cough Bran cough) who can enlighten us as to what the Others are, what they want, their own history and myths and legends (probably about the "big bad humans"), and their endgames.

I agree that they have their own set of goals and are not just an ultimate evil humanity needs to face in the end, but I strongly dislike the "game" metaphor in this context. Sure, power is always a component, but the "playing the game" has the connotations of political intrigue and playing the system and manipulating the social and political connections between people. It is just semantics, but still, I think using this metaphor here is misleading.

I know I've seen people argue both ways. In the prologue, Will makes notes that something cold and implacable that loved him not has been watching them. Something is different now than before.

Here is the quote:

Each day had been worse than the day that had come before it. Today was the worst of all. A cold wind was blowing out of the north, and it made the trees rustle like living things. All day, Will had felt as though as something were watching him, something cold and implacable that loved him not.

I think it deserves further examination: First of all, the process of things becoming more frightening takes days, like an aura that gets stronger over time. It is an innatural feeling that Will has not felt ever and he is a veteran of the Night's Watch. The cold is just one aspect, but the whole package comes together, which is why I do not think that the cold causes the Others to come, but the other way around, because the other aspects are not as 'natural' as a drop of temperature.

Furthermore the surroundings feel alive. Will feels as though as something is watching him and the rustling of the trees make them seem like living things. If I had to describe it with one words, it would be spirits. The presence of the Others causes old things to awaken (or at least this is the impression the description makes). It is not just some magic they use, to reanimate people or bring the cold, but there is something grave behind it, and not only that, the quote implicates that there is malice behind it.

And as a last point the thing that he feels is described as implacable. This is a contrast to the white walkers themselves, who are silent, elegant, appear and vanish quickly and strike just as fast. But the presence Will feels is implacable, unmoving, always there, which is quite the opposite of what the white walkers themselves are shown to do. That just furthers my impression that there is more behind them and that their mastery of undeath could extend beyond just reanimating human bodies.

Regarding the language there is another interesting quote:

Down below, the lordling called out suddenly, "Who goes there?" Will heard uncertainty in the challenge. He stopped climbing; he listened; he watched. The woods gave answer: the rustle of leaves, the icy rush of the stream, a distant hoot of a snow owl.

Here the white walkers are probably using their language which further reinforces the points made from you above that it is probably the True Tongue or some variation of it.

[BearQueen87]

First of all: Nice analysis and a good starting post.

I disagree here. Enslavement is the wrong word here. To enslave someone the person in question does actually need to be aware of what is happening, people get broken and forced into doing the bidding of someone else. But the people in question are dead and if their personality is gone then the wights are just animated bodies, not enslaved people. If something self-aware of their personality is bound to the wight then I would agree and that certainly could be the case (it is mentioned that the wights who attacked Mormont seem to have some of their memories retained), but if not then they are just profiting from killing people (which is not better).

I disagree with you in part. GRRM shows that sometimes slaves don't see themselves as "slaves" in the negative light that slavery really is. The slave Tyrion meets outside of Meereen doesn't consider himself a slave, but like a brother to his master and who wouldn't give his collar up for anything. He doesn't recognize that he's part of this terrible system, even though he's a labor slave who clearly isn't held in the same regard as he holds his master. Now, you can say that the slave is "broken" though we also see an example of a broken slave in Jorah Mormont who gives up the fight for freedom, but the slave at the well doesn't view his slavery as such. In fact he's proud to wear his master's collar. But this doesn't mean he's not a slave.

I agree that the wights seem to have their personalities stripped away and are just mindless meat bags who do as they are told without higher understanding. But does that mean that they aren't slaves?

[Illuminated by Fire]

I disagree with you in part. GRRM shows that sometimes slaves don't see themselves as "slaves" in the negative light that slavery really is. The slave Tyrion meets outside of Meereen doesn't consider himself a slave, but like a brother to his master and who wouldn't give his collar up for anything. He doesn't recognize that he's part of this terrible system, even though he's a labor slave who clearly isn't held in the same regard as he holds his master. Now, you can say that the slave is "broken" though we also see an example of a broken slave in Jorah Mormont who gives up the fight for freedom, but the slave at the well doesn't view his slavery as such. In fact he's proud to wear his master's collar. But this doesn't mean he's not a slave.

I agree that the wights seem to have their personalities stripped away and are just mindless meat bags who do as they are told without higher understanding. But does that mean that they aren't slaves?

Admittedly, I had field slaves and such in mind when I wrote 'broken', it suffices to say that they are people who are at the mercy of someone else, forced to obey their every command and do not have the freedom to choose otherwise, even if they would not choose to change their situation if they did. But if the wights have no personalities and are just animated bodies, then you cannot speak of enslavement, beause you can only enslave persons, and the person is gone in that situation. A body is not a person. But as I said, there could very well more behind it and then enslavement could be a fitting word for it.

[MoIaF]

Admittedly, I had field slaves and such in mind when I wrote 'broken', it suffices to say that they are people who are at the mercy of someone else, forced to obey their every command and do not have the freedom to choose otherwise, even if they would not choose to change their situation if they did. But if the wights have no personalities and are just animated bodies, then you cannot speak of enslavement, beause you can only enslave persons, and the person is gone in that situation. A body is not a person. But as I said, there could very well more behind it and then enslavement could be a fitting word for it.

I would still consider it a form of enslavement as the bodies are being used without the permission of the persons who use to inhabited them. And I don't have any proof of this but I did mention earlier that perhaps part of the spirit of the person is being damned by the way the are reanimated but the Others. My only thought as to whether a person can retain part of the self after the re animation is Coldhands who seems to be sentient in a way.

Just wanted to also draw everyone's attention to the the parallel between what the Others do and what the Red Priest can do with both bringing back the dead in two different ways.

[BearQueen87]

I would still consider it a form of enslavement as the bodies are being used without the permission of the persons who use to inhabited them. And I don't have any proof of this but I did mention earlier that perhaps part of the spirit of the person is being damned by the way the are reanimated but the Others. My only thought as to whether a person can retain part of the self after the re animation is Coldhands who seems to be sentient in a way.

Just wanted to also draw everyone's attention to the the parallel between what the Others do and what the Red Priest can do with both bringing back the dead in two different ways.

I was going to bring up Colahands, but felt like it was too far into the future, but since you did it... :)

Coldhands is either the exception that proves the rule (rule being that 99.9% of weights are unthinking and unfeelings, zombies in other words) OR there is something else going on with the weights that we aren't getting because thus far, apart from Coldhands, they are simply a military force. In other words, either Coldhands is special or he's not special at all. I tend to believe the former not the latter but it's something to think about.

As for the Red Priests...yeah that's a good point. Those brought back by the Reds are done in the name of religion (and get a bit of a pass?) and we don't, as of yet, have a clear picture of why the Others bring the dead back apart from military force but there could be religious overtones (do the Others have a religion? Do they have gods besides the Old Gods? Do they have sacred beliefs? Why don't I have Winds of Winter yet?) Despite the obvious terrible consequences on the souls brought back--LSH and Beric Dondarrion being the two big cases--they are brought back with their thoughts and feelings and emotions. They live and think and talk. If Ice and Fire are supposed to be the two elements in the GRRMverse that are two sides of the same coin, then it follows that their resurrections would look alike. In which case, going back to Mr. Coldhands, he might not be special at all.

[DarkSister1001]

We have warg abilities on one side of the fight, why not both? The Others have certainly demonstrated supernatural powers, the wights could easily be their "Hodor"s with the NK (or another leader) in the Lands of Always Winter pulling on their telepathic puppet strings. For one reason or another (help of the CoTF or BR), Coldhands may be beyond their control.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Hmmm...

I think in order to achieve balance they will have to be destroyed, but also perhaps the dragons and other magical elements that might be consider good as well. I think in the end what might happen is that we'll have to see an end to all the magic, which might mean the demise of more than one of our favorite characters. People can use magic for both good and evil - life and death but there is no one to police them and so it get's out of hand, it's misuse becomes unbalanced and thus the world around them becomes unbalance. It's power and the misuse of it.

I believe sacrifices will have to be made, personal sacrifices. And perhaps that's what when wrong the last time the Long Night came, they weren't able to make the sacrifices necessary to end it and only managed to push it away. And now the past is coming back to haunt them, literally.

GRRM said that one of the main themes of the series is the human heart in conflict with itself, and I think we'll see many of our POV's conflicted over what they'll need to do in the end.

That's how I also could see it, magic dwindling away by the end.

Regarding the language there is another interesting quote:

Down below, the lordling called out suddenly, "Who goes there?" Will heard uncertainty in the challenge. He stopped climbing; he listened; he watched. The woods gave answer: the rustle of leaves, the icy rush of the stream, a distant hoot of a snow owl.

Here the white walkers are probably using their language which further reinforces the points made from you above that it is probably the True Tongue or some variation of it.

Great catch, so if the whitewalkers do also speak the True Tongue (Which can only be spoken by the CotF), there might be a connection between them and the CotF. Though I wonder what that connection could be, are they a close kin with different abilities?

Just wanted to also draw everyone's attention to the the parallel between what the Others do and what the Red Priest can do with both bringing back the dead in two different ways.

I almost forgot about that, Lady Stoneheart seems to have sentience, so did Beric.

We have warg abilities on one side of the fight, why not both? The Others have certainly demonstrated supernatural powers, the wights could easily be their "Hodor"s with the NK (or another leader) in the Lands of Always Winter pulling on their telepathic puppet strings. For one reason or another (help of the CoTF or BR), Coldhands may be beyond their control.

I think this is a possibility, with the precedent of BR skinchanging ravens from a far and also making use of a wight from afar (Coldhands) it's possible the wights are also being controlled from a far by the Others.

[Arya Stark Rules]

Wonderful analysis.

I do have to say though that singling out the others for using dead bodies for their own use is unfair, since the Facelessmen also operate the same way by using dead bodies for their own use and red priests do far worse by burning people alive. Rather than singling out the others, magic is the one that should be criticized since it can be used for evil and good as stated above

I also disagree that the others bringing people back to life makes them the blackest in the story. Raping, torturing, burning people alive are far worse crimes since they involve actual people that are alive and such crimes have been committed by even some of our main POV characters. If the others must be killed cause they bring people from the dead, then the Dothraki must also be killed sinc ethey do far worse by slaving actual real people, killing and raping. There are many people that don't care what happens to their body when they are dead but people care way more about their body when alive.

[BearQueen87]

Wonderful analysis.

I do have to say though that singling out the others for using dead bodies for their own use is unfair, since the Facelessmen also operate the same way by using dead bodies for their own use and red priests do far worse by burning people alive. Rather than singling out the others, magic is the one that should be criticized since it can be used for evil and good as stated above

I'm not sure I completely agree with the Faceless Men part, but that's from lack of direct evidence. IIRC, we're not 100% sure what goes on between a priest in the House of Black and White and someone who comes to die. Does the person who is going to die agree to let their body and face be used? Do they know what happens to their faces after death? Is that part of the agreement and price---we'll help you die peacefully but you have to give us your face? If the person dying does know what is going on then they've given permission to be used, whereas the wights have not.

I do agree that the Red are an interesting contrast--especially when you have someone like LSH/Cat who never asked to be brought back and it was done without her say so. In that case, I again agree that we should place criticism on both sides of the magic-doers.

[DarkSister1001]

I'm not sure I completely agree with the Faceless Men part, but that's from lack of direct evidence. IIRC, we're not 100% sure what goes on between a priest in the House of Black and White and someone who comes to die. Does the person who is going to die agree to let their body and face be used? Do they know what happens to their faces after death? Is that part of the agreement and price---we'll help you die peacefully but you have to give us your face? If the person dying does know what is going on then they've given permission to be used, whereas the wights have not.

I do agree that the Red are an interesting contrast--especially when you have someone like LSH/Cat who never asked to be brought back and it was done without her say so. In that case, I again agree that we should place criticism on both sides of the magic-doers.

The Others seem to be killing for the sake of creating their wight army. The only place I could find the FM killing someone to use them was Pate/J'aqen. Otherwise, I don't recall reading where they use the skins of those they assassinate, just the ones that ask for the gift in the temple. Pate may be the exception since it doesn't appear as though he's the main target, just a means to an end. Not that I'm justifying their actions, just comparing.

[BearQueen87]

DarkSister you may want to put that in spoilers since there is still an embargo on them outside of the subforum. :)

But as to what you quoted...

Every time the Maester tells us something and then dismisses it out of hand, I tend to read it more closely. Chances are there is something there that GRRM wanted us to know. In text, Maester Yandel is just being a good scholar and including all the information he can, but out of text these little asides feel like GRRM inserts. For example, in the Reach section, the stories of Garth Greenhands make the deity out to be some sort of jolly green giant who just loved and planted and harvested. But there is a little brief aside that mentions the original, or at least oldest, stories of Greenhands make him a bloodthirsty god who demanded human sacrifice! These stories are largely forgotten. The truth is likely somewhere in between--the grey area you might say.

What does the dual stories mean? Well, we know that history is told by the victors and it's human to want to color those victories in our own subjective light. So, suddenly the victors were the heroes all along, even if they did equally horrible things as the villains.The tales from Fomas might not be the literal truth; I'm sure that whatever the Others are, there were atrocities on both sides in a war for political and strategic dominance. But it speaks to the idea that history is more complicated than heroes and villains. It's all grey. And even though readers tend to see the Starks, the present day ones, as the heroes of the story, it doesn't meant there aren't skeletons in the closets of Winterfell and that the struggle for Westeros isn't going to be bad on both sides.

As for Bran it could be that his own story and version of what happens in the War for the Dawn (2.0) is just as nuanced. Whatever role he plays--and arguably it will be a large one--might conflict with the desires and plans of others, but in his subjective mindset, his story is the right one.

[DarkSister1001]

Sorry and thanks! I can't seem to edit it to add spoilers so I reported it and it'll be deleted, then I'll try again.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I just read something very interesting in The World of Fire and Ice that may solidify that the Others are more like everyone else than we’ve led to believe:

If this is true, in their “clan” they could have their own versions of wargs, greenseers and priests. They’ve certainly already displayed supernatural powers of their own. Their peeps could work ice the way Valerians work fire (swords). They could also be speaking the True Tongue as was mentioned earlier. They may not actually bring the cold with them, but travel when it’s cold, so cold they can’t even bear to be that far north.

Yea, that quote also intrigued me when reading. Just like Bearqueen said I also think these aside quotes in the World Book are tidbits from GRRM. IRRC he stated in an interview that Maester Yandel is written by Elio and Linda and all other quotes from other maesters and sources are from him and his notes. So there could deffinetly be more complexity to the others than how they have been presented.

DarkSister you may want to put that in spoilers since there is still an embargo on them outside of the subforum. :)

But as to what you quoted...

Every time the Maester tells us something and then dismisses it out of hand, I tend to read it more closely. Chances are there is something there that GRRM wanted us to know. In text, Maester Yandel is just being a good scholar and including all the information he can, but out of text these little asides feel like GRRM inserts. For example, in the Reach section, the stories of Garth Greenhands make the deity out to be some sort of jolly green giant who just loved and planted and harvested. But there is a little brief aside that mentions the original, or at least oldest, stories of Greenhands make him a bloodthirsty god who demanded human sacrifice! These stories are largely forgotten. The truth is likely somewhere in between--the grey area you might say.

What does the dual stories mean? Well, we know that history is told by the victors and it's human to want to color those victories in our own subjective light. So, suddenly the victors were the heroes all along, even if they did equally horrible things as the villains.The tales from Fomas might not be the literal truth; I'm sure that whatever the Others are, there were atrocities on both sides in a war for political and strategic dominance. But it speaks to the idea that history is more complicated than heroes and villains. It's all grey. And even though readers tend to see the Starks, the present day ones, as the heroes of the story, it doesn't meant there are skeletons in the closets of Winterfell and that the struggle for Westeros isn't going to be bad on both sides.

As for Bran it could be that his own story and version of what happens in the War for the Dawn (2.0) is just as nuanced. Whatever role he plays--and arguably it will be a large one--might conflict with the desires and plans of others, but in his subjective mindset, his story is the right one.

I agree on your point of the victors writing history in their favour and it actually reflects old Nan's story. In her story she describes the others as dead things. corpses etc, but that contradicts GRRM's description of them being alive and beautiful.

Also from the world book:

There are cases before the Andals came of the Starks (Kings of Winter) all ready starting to drive the old races North (CotF and Giants), so as you said the Starks definitely have some skeletons in their closet

In relation to Bran's story line without jumping ahead, we'll later hear Jojen tell Bran that Winterfell has forgotten things about the First Men and I definitely believe one or all of these are tied into that in some way.

[BearQueen87]

In relation to Bran's story line without jumping ahead, we'll later hear Jojen tell Bran that Winterfell has forgotten things about the First Men and I definitely believe one or all of these are tied into that in some way.

Ha. We haven't even gotten to a "real" Bran POV yet and already we're jumping. But, I'll just say that I agree and I think that one of Bran's central narrative arcs is "remembering that which has been forgotten."

[Loic]

Can't wait to see the future Bran chapters, I think his is a great arc!

Lot of valid points all around.

Language:

The Whitewalkers, seem to have their own language that the members of the Night's Watch do not understand. I'm wondering whether it is the Old Tongue, Gared may have been the one that would know if it was the Old tongue but he did not come along. It could also be the true tongue that the Children of the Forest speak.

Wights

We have our first encounter of the wights after Royce dies. The chapter doesn't going into detail as to how this process occurs, all we know is that Royce rose as a wight after he was killed by a Whitewalker. The most logical assumption is that the White walkers are the ones that did this as Royce has the same eye colour as the Whitewalker when he wakes up, though we don't know what process takes place for this to occur.

Conclusion

A Game of thrones begins with us seeing the whitewalkers for the first time. However despite this, there are more questions that arise after this encounter rather than definite answers. Are the whitewalkers the ultimate evil that need to be destroyed? If we were presented the same scenario but with dragons killing a human trying to tame it, would we call them evil? Are they just protecting their territory from invaders such as Royce and Will? Do they have a motive against man? Why do they bring people from dead as wights? Why are they appearing at this particular time?

These are questions that could take books to answer and I will admit I'm still trying to find answers to them, but one thing for sure we know is that, Winter is coming.

About wights, wightification and resurrections in general

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been give. Swords rose and fell, all in deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced throughringmail as if it were silk.Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

When he found the courage to look again, a long time had passed, and the ridge below was empty.

Will can clearly hear, so it's safe to assume that if there was some particular sound when making someone a wight, it would have been heard.

I wonder if we should include in the reread some Samwell chapters where we can see the Others and wights in action, or Jon saving Lord Mormont from Othor (it depends if we consider wights/Others as something fundamental when dealing with Bran... if this reread could include them I'd be happy).

Some things I noticed:

1 unWaymar doesn't follow the Others

2 unWaymar and unOthor's case seems to suggest us that wights' actions aren't that mindless.

- unWaymar waits for Will to come down (assuming that he knows Will's there) - but most importantly he waits for Will to be distracted, before attacking him

- unOthor seems to remember where Mormont lives and stayed dead up until then

Both suggest some kind of premeditation, or at least some kind of thought before acting, but at the same time wights seems extremely different from the likes of Beric Dondarrion or Lady Stonehearth.

I wonder if wights can be receive orders or be controlled from afar. Given that there would be a precedent about controlling other beings with wargs (and most importantly, given that Bran will actually control another human being - won't discuss it until it's time) and an eventual link with the Old Tongue, I don't find it very unlikely.

The North and beyond the Wall looks like the most magical places in all the planet, now that Valyria is gone.

[DarkSister1001]

Ha. We haven't even gotten to a "real" Bran POV yet

Well...if ya wanna, I have Bran I ready to go. :)

[JonBranRickon]

Excellent read - te whole idea that the WW & O have reasons beyond pure evil is an interesting theory and I'm sure they have a reason. It still doesn't change the fact ther they can't seem to coexist with people be they followers of the Old Goods, The Seven, Rhollor or any other religion. So in the end they are the natural enemy of every living thing in the land.

[BearQueen87]

Excellent read - te whole idea that the WW & O have reasons beyond pure evil is an interesting theory and I'm sure they have a reason. It still doesn't change the fact ther they can't seem to coexist with people be they followers of the Old Goods, The Seven, Rhollor or any other religion. So in the end they are the natural enemy of every living thing in the land.

Well how do we know they can't coexist? We don't know what was done in the Battle for the Dawn that brought down the Others--it could be that some sort of pact was made as opposed to an actual battle that the human claim was victorious. And the White Walkers have been around, just "asleep" (or something) so there is a form of coexistence.

And this all makes the humans sound like they are the passive force and just victims. The Wall stands yet they are preparing for War; to paraphrase Jon, "night gathers and now my war begins." Well...why? Have they tried other tactics or was WAR the first answer that came to mind? In Sam's first POV in AFFC, he couldn't even tell Jon anything about the Others except the fairy tales that we've heard scattered throughout ASOIAF. The humans see the Others as a threat to human life, but aren't they (the humans) in turn a threat to Other-life? If they are the ones seeks to destroy the Others for the sake of preservation of the human race, doesn't that make both sides "natural enemies" which is defined as killing prey in order to live?

And to bring up the dragons, while they aren't sentient like the Others (or at least how we envision the Others to be sentient) they too are a destructive force and could be a pure destructive force if in the wrong equally mercurial hands. It goes back to something I said up thread which is that, as it stands, both sides can't see each other complexly and that's leading to an us vs them mentality and while I do think it'll come to war, I don't think that necessarily makes the Others enemy number one. I think, something GRRM is trying to show us, is that enemy number one is ignorance.

MOIAF, QA, myself and some others touched on this and I get the feeling it's going to be a topic about which we'll constantly come back, but I don't think wiping out the Others is the ultimate solution unless you also remove the dragons. It's about balance. The 'ice" here isn't the great evil. They are two opposing forces that need to find balance. And the three main characters in ASOIAF--at least the three that I see as being the ultimate main--each represent this idea. Dany as Fire's Champion. Bran as Ice Champion. And Jon, the great balance of the two. That's why I tend to think that while Dany and Bran will play huge roles (on different sides of all this) it'll be Jon that has to do "the thing" that restores the world; that somehow satisfies both fire and ice and their desires.

(and all of that jumps around a lot but I guess it's better to get that out in the open, lol)

[RainGhost]

Great idea to re-read the AGoT prologue. I agree with BearQueen87 that it's all about balance and that one side destroying the other isn't the answer. Obvisouly we don't yet know the Others' motivations but is all out war the only answer? The other interesting question about the prologue is who attacked who first? Did Waymar Royce or the Other attack first? As we see it from Will's and the human POV, the Others seem to be the bad guys but really that's only because they're different. Humans generally do not like/are scared of things that are different. Does that make the Others the bad guys?

I know they had no common language but what would have happened if Waymar Royce had tried to communicate with the Others in some way? If he had lain down his sword? We don't know because that never occurred to him. That also apparently doesn't occur to the wildlings ... except Craster. The fact that only one Other took on Ser Waymar suggests that there is some honour there but then again it could have been for some other reason. Either way, I don't think we should assume that the Others are evil and that it is not possible for humans and Others to co-exist.