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"The Winged Wolf" A Bran Stark Re-read Project - Part 1: AGOT


MoIaF

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Excellent analysis!

Thank you Illuminated by Fire!

I completely agree here, although I would phrase the choice slightly differently: the mundane or the mystical?

Yeah, a different turn of phrase might be better, though as someone who has spent her life in educational pursuits, not sure if I go with mundane since it can also mean dull or boring as well as "of this earth". And, on the flip side of all this, we do know (thanks to Samwell and a small reference in a Dany POV) that some of the Maesters aren't as practical as Luwin.

What Luwin essentially does is what he is supposed to do: Teaching Bran everything he needs to know as a lord's son and potential heir to Winterfell. He teaches him about banners and the noble houses and everything else you listed. It is the world of lords and noble houses, about society and how to rule. This is Luwin's world, a world where magic does not work. The only problem with that is that this was never the case and that the world is changing in a way which exposes that.

This goes back to Kyoshi's chapter--what was Luwin seeing in his fareye in Bran's coma dream? And what about it frustrated him? Did it frustrate him scientifically or did it frustrate him because it was more magical in nature and it rubbed up against his "mundane" (I'll use that word right now :) ) leanings?

Another point I want to bring up here is how Luwin adresses Bran: He uses 'Bran' or 'child', which reinforces the roles between them. Luwin is the teacher and the guardian and Bran is the student and the ward, which is a distinction Luwin always keeps up

Yes, and of course Osha calls Bran something totally different.

And, this isn't really a parallel (and least not to me...I'm based, though) but I'll bring it up anyway. In AGOT, Dany gets called "Child" by her own insanely practical, some what gruff adviser. Though, it ends after the tent incident and Jorah, my bear, never calls her it again. But he calls her child whenever he is explaining something that Dany doesn't know/understand.

I do not know if it is necessarily 'embracing his northern Stark side', because I do not think that he ever made the distinction between his wishes and his northern identity. It has probably more to do with the fact that he now has a reason the seek refuge in its connection with the old gods because of all the things that are going on. He never had a important reason to pray before.

Yeah, when I wrote "embracing his northern Stark side" I wasn't overly happy with it because I'm not sure we can classify anything as "Stark side" anymore than we can "Targaryen side" or "Lannister side" ect. But I also couldn't come up with an adequate work around, so I figured I'd let you guys just take me to task. :)

The distinction you made between the provable knowledge can probably be more aptly summarized as the distinction between written and traditional knowledge. Maths, science, healing and more on the one side and the old knowledge of the mystical on the other

I'm not sure I agree. Maths, science, and healing were all oral traditions passed down family member to family member before they were recorded. And some of Osha's stories HAVE been recorded (the general, not the specific), it's just that they were then summarily dismissed as fanciful tales of the uncivilized.

That actually might be the distinction we're reaching for: what is held up as "correct"in a "civilized" world vs an "uncivilized." And GRRM turns around and goes "yeah, all this is real, guys. There is no difference between these people except what side of the wall they ended up on and how they might live day to day"

As a personal side note: I dislike the use of the Yoda comparison a bit, alone because I think that every mentor figure in this series is a better one than him. He is the 'appearing wise' figure that comes up so often in fiction and that I like Jojen so much is that he subverts it completely.

Oh, Yoda totally sucks as a Yoda-figure. I guess I was going for a fun tongue in cheek reference. And, as another aside, I think Quaithe takes the cake for worst Yoda-figure, even worse than Yoda himself, and I Quaithe might be GRRM's way of making fun of Yoda.

Broken. Bran thought bitterly as he clutched his knife. Is that what he was now? Bran the Broken? "I don't want to be broken," he whispered fiercely to Maester Luwin, who'd been seated to his right. "I want to be a knight."

Here Bran is bitter about his disability and clings to his original dream, being a knight. But he is also fierce and refuses to just succumb to his situation, which continues here:

I just noticed that Bran is clutching a knife, like a knight wielding or brandishing a sword....

- "Gage lets me have my prayers from time to time, when I feel the need, and I let him do what he likes under my skirt, when he feels the need."

It may not be called slavery by the Westerosi but it's alive and well in Westeros. And that goes back to the civilized/uncivilized response above.

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Yeah, a different turn of phrase might be better, though as someone who has spent her life in educational pursuits, not sure if I go with mundane since it can also mean dull or boring as well as "of this earth". And, on the flip side of all this, we do know (thanks to Samwell and a small reference in a Dany POV) that some of the Maesters aren't as practical as Luwin.

I was not entirely happy with 'mundane' too, but think it gets the point across if you contrast it with 'mythical'. Regarding the maesters I think that there is a difference between the maesters serving lords (I am excluding the Night's Watch here) and the maesters at the citadel regarding the focus of their efforts, alone because they have a special role in the lord's household and therefore their efforts. So I would think that Luwin is fairly standard as far as that goes (although we do not have that many maesters to compare). Regarding Bran's dream: Yes, that is an interesting question. Could have very well to do something with the Red Comet though.

Yes, and of course Osha calls Bran something totally different.

And, this isn't really a parallel (and least not to me...I'm based, though) but I'll bring it up anyway. In AGOT, Dany gets called "Child" by her own insanely practical, some what gruff adviser. Though, it ends after the tent incident and Jorah, my bear, never calls her it again. But he calls her child whenever he is explaining something that Dany doesn't know/understand.

I was not really contrasting that against Osha since she calls him boy too. But I think that 'child' puts more emphasis on the age than 'boy' does (there is a particular rebuke in ACoK of Luwin when they are preparing to talk about the war, maybe I can make a better case then). I cannot really pinpoint it to a specific scene, but the impression that I got that someone in a position like Jon at the Night's Watch as a steward could be rebuked by being called a boy, but outright offended by being called child. However, I was mentioning it because it will get a bit more apparent later on in ACoK. It is more a contrast with the Reeds than against Osha, but that will come up later.

Regarding Jorah: I would need to read the chapters for that again, but I think the dynamic between Daenerys and Jorah are a bit different, alone because Jorah and Dany have an automatic bond by being foreign to the Dothraki culture around them, even disregarding Jorahs feelings in this.

I'm not sure I agree. Maths, science, and healing were all oral traditions passed down family member to family member before they were recorded. And some of Osha's stories HAVE been recorded (the general, not the specific), it's just that they were then summarily dismissed as fanciful tales of the uncivilized.

That actually might be the distinction we're reaching for: what is held up as "correct"in a "civilized" world vs an "uncivilized." And GRRM turns around and goes "yeah, all this is real, guys. There is no difference between these people except what side of the wall they ended up on and how they might live day to day"

That is a good point! I think that is a better distinction than the first two and summarizes the implications pretty well. And to be honest: The maester may have some scientific influences, but I doubt they are scientifically rigorous in their methods. Much is not necessarily more reliable than the tales from the wildlings.

Oh, Yoda totally sucks as a Yoda-figure. I guess I was going for a fun tongue in cheek reference. And, as another aside, I think Quaithe takes the cake for worst Yoda-figure, even worse than Yoda himself, and I Quaithe might be GRRM's way of making fun of Yoda.

Now that you mention it... I probably had my own repressed memories regarding Quaithe and buried her in some dark place deep down in my memories. She is the worst mentor in ASoIaF, without contest.

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Regarding Jorah: I would need to read the chapters for that again, but I think the dynamic between Daenerys and Jorah are a bit different, alone because Jorah and Dany have an automatic bond by being foreign to the Dothraki culture around them, even disregarding Jorahs feelings in this.

*resists instincts to start talking about Dany and Jorah*

That is a good point! I think that is a better distinction than the first two and summarizes the implications pretty well. And to be honest: The maester may have some scientific influences, but I doubt they are scientifically rigorous in their methods. Much is not necessarily more reliable than the tales from the wildlings.

Right, and here's the thing about maths, history, healing, the sciences...in short everything Luwin represents: if you trace their origins back far enough, you'll run into some sort of culture story. For example....let's say you take medicine X to get rid of your headache. Now, scientifically, we know that Med X works because of its properties in reducing your pain....but the myth behind the science would be that there was once a hero who ran afoul of great pain in his temple and he was so beloved by the gods that they sent a magical root to cure his pain...and then we go and name that magical root for the hero. Our society (and Westerosi) cast science and myth as being "two ends of the spectrum" (which, to be critical of myself, is what I called it in my analysis) but...well, they aren't.

Now that you mention it... I probably had my own repressed memories regarding Quaithe and buried her in some dark place deep down in my memories. She is the worst mentor in ASoIaF, without contest.

To get to those dark memories you must first cross the light.

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*resists instincts to start talking about Dany and Jorah*

I feel with you, I'll need to restrain myself too from the middle of ACoK on.

Right, and here's the thing about maths, history, healing, the sciences...in short everything Luwin represents: if you trace their origins back far enough, you'll run into some sort of culture story. For example....let's say you take medicine X to get rid of your headache. Now, scientifically, we know that Med X works because of its properties in reducing your pain....but the myth behind the science would be that there was once a hero who ran afoul of great pain in his temple and he was so beloved by the gods that they sent a magical root to cure his pain...and then we go and name that magical root for the hero. Our society (and Westerosi) cast science and myth as being "two ends of the spectrum" (which, to be critical of myself, is what I called it in my analysis) but...well, they aren't.

The difference is, however, that some stories can just be based on a wrong belief to begin with, which is exactly what scientific explanations try to avoid by discovering the real reasons why things work how they do. But, indeed, they are not two opposite sides. Cultures do not survive without beliefs and experiences that have actual roots in reality, regardless of how they got concealed over time.

To get to those dark memories you must first cross the light.

I think I can live with some dark memories, thank you very much. I feel with everyone of the Daenerys reread who had not the luxury to pretend she was not part of the arc.

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Excellent analysis, BearQueen! And some great follow-up, Illuminated by Fire!



I really like the exploration of the Luwin/Osha roles, though like IbF, I'm not sure that empirical/practical/provable vs. spiritual/unprovable quite captures the difference between the two bodies of knowledge he receives from these teachers. IbF's point about written vs. traditional knowledge is a good one, and the suggestion of mundane vs. mystical is interesting, though I think that Bran's later experiences help to call into question what belongs in which category. I was reminded of the distinction made in Sufi tradition (Islamic mysticism), between the "symbolic" and the "real": the kicker is that all the mundane stuff turns out to be "symbolic," while all the spiritual stuff is what is really real. In ASoIaF terms, this would mean that all that stuff like history and political science and meteorology that comprises Luwin's body of knowledge is symbolic of what is really going on, the magical stuff.



The knowledge that Osha gives to Bran can't be backed up by something like one of Yandel's references to a maesterly text, but it is empirical, grounded in direct experience, and as we all know, as we follow Bran's story we'll see him confronted with directly perceptible evidence of Osha's wildling knowledge. And indeed, as Luwin's tale progresses, we get more than a little hint of his own internal conflict between the institutionalized knowledge he was trained to use and share and his awareness that there are other truths out there not fully covered by the dogmas of the Citadel (fi that's not too strong a word for them).



And, Illuminated by Fire, thank you for your wonderfully empathetic presentation of Bran's experiences and his resilience and courage in facing the reactions of the Stark bannermen. I really appreciated it.



A minor point, but Osha's shackles are interesting, in light of the chained wolf imagery that we'll be getting, again highlighting the symbolic vs. the real.



And, although it's off topic, I couldn't help but to notice that Osha thought that the Mance was gathering the wildlings to fight the white walkers. That's a different tune from the assumption that he was planning an assault on the Wall.


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Excellent analysis, BearQueen! And some great follow-up, Illuminated by Fire!

Thank you Hfrafntyr!

In ASoIaF terms, this would mean that all that stuff like history and political science and meteorology that comprises Luwin's body of knowledge is symbolic of what is really going on, the magical stuff.

That's a pretty interesting take on it.

And indeed, as Luwin's tale progresses, we get more than a little hint of his own internal conflict between the institutionalized knowledge he was trained to use and share and his awareness that there are other truths out there not fully covered by the dogmas of the Citadel (fi that's not too strong a word for them).

Good point. And as Luwin's own mini-arc progresses, it reinforces into Bran what Osha (and by then Jojen) is saying.

A minor point, but Osha's shackles are interesting, in light of the chained wolf imagery that we'll be getting, again highlighting the symbolic vs. the real.

Yes, I wasn't quite sure what to make of Osha's chains. On the one hand, I think it's a reinforcement that while institutionalized slavery might be "out" in Westeros, it has by no means vanished altogether. The chains for instance clink slightly as she moves (like I imagine chains would) but it also brings to mind Tyrion's "jolly" little bell around his slave collar when he is taken by Yezzan. The sound reinforces what Tyrion is and almost drives him mad(der?). But I also like your Sufi take on the chains as well.

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I really like the exploration of the Luwin/Osha roles, though like IbF, I'm not sure that empirical/practical/provable vs. spiritual/unprovable quite captures the difference between the two bodies of knowledge he receives from these teachers. IbF's point about written vs. traditional knowledge is a good one, and the suggestion of mundane vs. mystical is interesting, though I think that Bran's later experiences help to call into question what belongs in which category. I was reminded of the distinction made in Sufi tradition (Islamic mysticism), between the "symbolic" and the "real": the kicker is that all the mundane stuff turns out to be "symbolic," while all the spiritual stuff is what is really real. In ASoIaF terms, this would mean that all that stuff like history and political science and meteorology that comprises Luwin's body of knowledge is symbolic of what is really going on, the magical stuff.

That is a view that comes up in multiple religions, although I am in no way an expert about that. But I am not sure how much that applies here. Magic and politics are often times related in this series and even Bloodraven had a fairly political past. You could make that argument for Bloodraven and the CotF who are living fairly isolated at the moment, but even then he seems to take influence on politics (depending on how much you want to give him credit for certain things in the series). Even if the ends are non-political you never get away from it entirely (Mladen wrote a good post about that). But Bran's arc, especially later on, is as far disconnected from politics as you get in this series. So maybe that view is appliable here, but I am in two minds about that.

Maybe a point to the shackles: Keep in mind that Osha is a wildling and many of them pride themselves on not being kneelers. I obviously do not know to what extent she shares that view, but it is likely that being a prisoner and shackled all the time is very hurtful for her pride. And that is not even going into the abuse. For that she seems to take it in stride, at least outwardly. But I very much doubt that she is not affected by it.

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Maybe a point to the shackles: Keep in mind that Osha is a wildling and many of them pride themselves on not being kneelers. I obviously do not know to what extent she shares that view, but it is likely that being a prisoner and shackled all the time is very hurtful for her pride. And that is not even going into the abuse. For that she seems to take it in stride, at least outwardly. But I very much doubt that she is not affected by it.

Osha is an interesting case of a Wildling in this kneeling respect. As soon as Robb approaches her in Bran V to determine if she lives or dies...she kneels: "She was a head taller than he was, but she dropped to her knees at his approach."

I think Osha is more adaptable than other Wildlings we met later in other POVs--and actually this goes back to what you said in your initial post about this chapter with regards to the anger part about what is happening to Osha at night. She lets the baker do what he likes under her skirt because he lets her pray. She bends the knee to Robb because she wants to keep on living. Contrast this with Ygritte--whom I can't imagine ever doing either of these things. Osha's a spearwife so she's obviously trained in combat but she's willing to forsake parts of her culture and upbringing to keep on living.

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That is a view that comes up in multiple religions, although I am in no way an expert about that. But I am not sure how much that applies here. Magic and politics are often times related in this series and even Bloodraven had a fairly political past. You could make that argument for Bloodraven and the CotF who are living fairly isolated at the moment, but even then he seems to take influence on politics (depending on how much you want to give him credit for certain things in the series). Even if the ends are non-political you never get away from it entirely (Mladen wrote a good post about that). But Bran's arc, especially later on, is as far disconnected from politics as you get in this series. So maybe that view is appliable here, but I am in two minds about that.

Maybe a point to the shackles: Keep in mind that Osha is a wildling and many of them pride themselves on not being kneelers. I obviously do not know to what extent she shares that view, but it is likely that being a prisoner and shackled all the time is very hurtful for her pride. And that is not even going into the abuse. For that she seems to take it in stride, at least outwardly. But I very much doubt that she is not affected by it.

Regarding the Sufi/mystical take, I guess I was thinking about the new Long Night stuff that emerged in TWoIaF, particularly some of the Essosi interpretations that see what happened as having been an outgrowth of political/social/ethical events. I suppose I'm agreeing with you here, I think that there isn't really a difference between the mundane/political and the magical, that they overlap and intersect and mutually affect one another.

And I really wonder how divorced from politics and the mundane will be Bran's arc. There's so much we don't know about the folks he's wound up with, including Bloodraven, erstwhile political player par excellence! And heavens only knows what the White Walkers want or even if they are free agents or working for someone else. I'm definitely convinced that the song encompasses and even works through the political. But Maester Luwin shows no evidence of thinking such things, whereas for Osha the magical is definitely intertwined with the political.

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A Game of Thrones

Bran VI

They would never cheer for him that way, he realized with a dull ache. He might be the lord of Winterfell while his brother and father were gone, but he was still Bran the Broken.

Summary

Really excellent analysis BearQueen87 :bowdown: Also, excellent follow up.

I don't have much to add but just going back to the discussion of Bran's mentors I really like the compliment that each provides to the other. While Maester Luwin provides Bran with earthly knowledge, Osha is providing him with spiritual knowledge together they give Bran a larger understanding of the world. I've said before that I think Bran will be the closest thing we'll ever get to omniscient in the series and this is a good show of the balance in knowledge of knowing the concreate and knowing the mythical.

Bloodraven himself was a man with both a strong knowledge of the world and a great cunning but also as we know he has just as much knowledge of the mythical.

Random Though

This reminded me of the description of the dragons:

"The scent of the direwolves sent horses into a frenzy of fear if they were not accustomed to it, but theyd quiet soon enough once Summer was gone."

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Regarding the Sufi/mystical take, I guess I was thinking about the new Long Night stuff that emerged in TWoIaF, particularly some of the Essosi interpretations that see what happened as having been an outgrowth of political/social/ethical events. I suppose I'm agreeing with you here, I think that there isn't really a difference between the mundane/political and the magical, that they overlap and intersect and mutually affect one another.

And I really wonder how divorced from politics and the mundane will be Bran's arc. There's so much we don't know about the folks he's wound up with, including Bloodraven, erstwhile political player par excellence! And heavens only knows what the White Walkers want or even if they are free agents or working for someone else. I'm definitely convinced that the song encompasses and even works through the political. But Maester Luwin shows no evidence of thinking such things, whereas for Osha the magical is definitely intertwined with the political.

I think that there might be some "poilitical players" that will try to use the new Long Night to their benefit. It's the nature of things for some to take advantage of the chaos, we've already seen this with Littlefinger. I think the world is interconnected in many ways and it would make sense that the magical and the political are interconnected as well.

I was having a conversation with someone and it occurred to me that the events of the Dance with Dragon might have led to the awakening of the Others. The Dance led to the death of the dragons (politics-magical) which in part might have imbalanced the world. Then the WoT5K exasperated it by destabilizing the country.

Of course this is a new crackpot of mine so take it with many grains of salt. :D

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I like where this thread is going. I don't have much to add- by the time I read through all this it has become late in the evening, and you guys have summed it up nicely. One thing I'll chime in on is Osha in chains. I don't think she is a slave but a untrustworthy prisoner. Instead of a cell in a dungeon she is put to work to earn her keep which is uncommon throughout the 7 kingdoms.

Also, she gives us our first insight to the matriarchal line's importance north of the wall (and possibly elsewhere concerning bloodlines)which is not so common south of it.

One thing about Bran I have never seen brought forward in any thread is the recurring physical comedy bit. Many times Hodor misjudges an overhead hazzard which leads to Bran bonking his head. Hah!

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Rapid fire responses



1) Thanks MOIAF and yes very dragon-y



2) ADWF: Yes Osha is an untrustworthy prisoner but the idea that she has to earn her keep seems a bit out of the ordinary for Westerosi treatment of prisoners, especially since the alternative is death. Add to this that she is being sexually assaulted while being kept in chains (seeimingly at all times) and it's a bit too slavery for us to just dismiss it full stop as "not slavery"


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They would never cheer for him that way, he realized with a dull ache. He might be the lord of Winterfell while his brother and father were gone, but he was still Bran the Broken.

Wonderfully done BearQueen and loads of fantastic follow-up!

1. The Greatjon Umber is a fantastic character.

This is easily one of my favorite scenes. I love how Robb handled the situation. Cool, calm and just a whisper to the wolf. And then confessing his fear to Bran. More importantly he's showing all that he's the son of Ned Stark and even quoting what Ned has taught him. But also being merciful enough to give the GJ a change the change his tune, so to speak. This is very helpful to Bran who is about to be left as the Stark in WF. He see's Robb (again) change demeanors from the Lord to his brother that's just as afraid as he is. This is also the first time Bran see's one of the wolves attack on command solidifying their roles as protectors of the Stark children. And the Greatjon's reaction is freaking priceless.

I want to start off this analysis by looking at Bran’s conversation with his two mentors, whom I like to call his “Yoda” figures. Maester Luwin and Osha represent two opposite ends of the spectrum. On the one hand, Luwin is empirical knowledge, and that which is tangible and concrete. He can teach Bran things that can be verified and known. Osha, on the other hand, roots herself in magic and myth and mysticism. Her knowledge and what she can offer Bran is based off spiritualism and things most men believe to be either dead or to have never existed. While both of these figures care for Bran—and in return Bran cares for both of them—I believe George RR Martin is setting Bran up with a choice: science or faith; the way of the maester or the way of the singers.

I really like your analysis of Bran and his Yoda's. Nicely done. He is being taught logic and faith, both important to his development and crucial to his journey. I also like that he now has another person telling "tales" like Old Nan. Osha is bringing credence to some of the stories Bran has heard all of his life.

I am actually reminded of another maester and second son, Cressen and Stannis. We know that Cressen felt a fatherly love for Stannis because Stannis needed it more than his Baratheon brothers. In the end, to continue the parallel, Stannis took up with a woman of mystical origins, though that one was of fire, not ice.

Nice parallel! I had not thought about it that way before.

“I want to learn magic,” Bran told him. “The crow promised I would fly.”

Maester Luwin sighed, “I can teach you history, healing, herblore. I can teach you the speech of ravens, and how to build a castle, and the way a sailor steers his ship by the stars. I can teach you to measure the days and mark the seasons, and at the Citadel in Oldtown they can teach you a thousand things more. But, Bran, no man teach you magic.”

This is the second time Bran has said something about what a crow told him. How is it that no one has stopped and said, "wtf are you talking about? What crow?"

A few things to point out here. First, Osha appears with the wind, moments after Bran has prayed to the gods for help and protection. She is like the answer to his prayer. This is not to say that Osha is some sort of mystical avatar, but rather she serves a spiritual guide until another one will come. She prepares the way for Bran, opening his mind to the idea that the Children and Giants and weights still exist beyond the Wall. If the crow opened Bran’s third eye, and Jojen Reed will help Bran with his gift, then Osha’s job is to make Bran aware of what is going on beyond the Wall.

Yes, yes and YES!

Osha studied him. “You asked them and they’re answering. Open your ears, listen, you’ll hear.”

The crow told him to open his eye and Osha is telling him to open his ears. Essentially he needs to get in touch with his senses and even his 6th sense. It's not uncommon for remaining senses to become heightened after the loss of one. Bran hasn't fully lost the sense of touch, but he is limited. He's lost that sense from the (assuming) waist down and he's limited to what he can touch. If he can reach something from his bed or from the basket on Hodor's back, all limiting his sense of touch.

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Wonderfully done BearQueen and loads of fantastic follow-up!

Thank you!

The crow told him to open his eye and Osha is telling him to open his ears. Essentially he needs to get in touch with his senses and even his 6th sense. It's not uncommon for remaining senses to become heightened after the loss of one. Bran hasn't fully lost the sense of touch, but he is limited. He's lost that sense from the (assuming) waist down and he's limited to what he can touch. If he can reach something from his bed or from the basket on Hodor's back, all limiting his sense of touch.

Very good point. His sense of sight is heightened, he gains a "new eye"

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As usual, excellent analysis, Bear Queen! :bowdown: Thank you!



I had not noticed how Bran seems to "choose" the magical songs of Osha the Wildling over the empirical knowledge of Maester Luwin. Beyond that I have nothing to add, sorry about that.






I think that there might be some "poilitical players" that will try to use the new Long Night to their benefit. It's the nature of things for some to take advantage of the chaos, we've already seen this with Littlefinger. I think the world is interconnected in many ways and it would make sense that the magical and the political are interconnected as well.


[snip snippity snip snip]






Never let a good catastrophe go to waste.


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Excellent job, BearQueen87. Good in-depth analysis



Something I want to add to Bran V:



Fisher King



"I didn't catch anything," Bran said, "but Jon gave me his fish on the way back to Winterfell. Will we ever see Jon again?"



I think this could be a reference to the Fisher King of Arthurian legend. The Fisher King is wounded in the legs or groin (also fits BR) who keeps the Holy Grail. The Fisher King is derived from Bran the Blessed who had a magic cauldron that could heal revive the dead, the inspiration for the Holy Grail. In Welsh mythology, Bran the Blessed, meaning the “the blessed raven,” is the High King of Prydain or Britain. In the story, the King of Ireland, Matholwch, traveled to Wales to meet with Bran in his castle of Harlech, in order to make a marriage alliance between Bran’s sister Branwen and himself and unite the two kingdoms (like the betrothal between Joffrey and Sansa). However, Matholwch is insulted by Bran’s half-brother, and when he takes Branwen back to Ireland (like Sansa goes to KL with Joffrey), he mistreated her so badly that she sent a letter to her brother to come rescue her (Sansa sent a letter to WF we all know, and who knows what she prayed before a heart tree.)



Bran assembled an army to rescue his sister (just as Robb marshaled an army to fight the Lannisters), but the Irish met him with an offer of peace. Inside the hall where the two sides are to feast and discuss peace, the Irish hid warriors in sacks of flour who burst out and attacked Bran’s men (just as Robb and his men are murdered at the RW under the guise of making peace and feasting with the Freys), aided by the magical cauldron Bran had given them. After the cauldron is destroyed, Bran cannot be healed and yet cannot die, so he has his head removed from his body and returned to Harlech,.



I think the magic cauldron/Holy Grail in this case could be the the magic of the greenseers or weirwoods/Old Gods, and I think Bran will use it to heal and revive the "dead" Jon.



Now for Bran VI



Everyone pretty much covered everything. There is the theory that Osha is Tormund's sister, given he calls himself "Giantsbane," and she says her brother killed a giant.



"watch over his men . . . And Theon too, I suppose."



I think Bran has been watching Theon since ADwD, and was trying to talk to him in WF.


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As usual, excellent analysis, Bear Queen! :bowdown: Thank you!

I had not noticed how Bran seems to "choose" the magical songs of Osha the Wildling over the empirical knowledge of Maester Luwin. Beyond that I have nothing to add, sorry about that.

Thanks Kyoshi!

Never let a good catastrophe go to waste.

Motto of House Baelish

Excellent job, BearQueen87. Good in-depth analysis

Thanks Fire Eater!

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Conversations With Yoda: Maester Luwin

This chapter begins with Bran watching the final bannermen family—the Karstarks—come into Winterfell. We can easily imagine that this scene has played out many times before as the other families arrived. Bran can no longer be part of the action, so he is sequestered away, watching through Luwin’s “fareye.” We learn that Maester Luwin has “taught him all the banners.”

Bran seems to spend a lot of time with the good Maester now that Robb is Lord of Winterfell and Cat has gone south. Apart from his direwolf, Summer, Bran has little in the way of company and Maester Luwin continues to serve as his teacher, but there is also a more familiar element to them now that Bran confines himself inside the walls of Winterfell when necessary. I am actually reminded of another maester and second son, Cressen and Stannis. We know that Cressen felt a fatherly love for Stannis because Stannis needed it more than his Baratheon brothers. In the end, to continue the parallel, Stannis took up with a woman of mystical origins, though that one was of fire, not ice.

Notice that Bran, while with Luwin, uses equipment like the lens tube and asks pressing questions that have to do with quantity or politics. These are not of the more spiritual variety, a conversation that happens later with Osha.

I love the slightly exasperated banter between this “father” and “son.” But notice that the information Luwin provides is of a practical nature: how one becomes a knight; the number of men at arms; the demographic of religions in Westeros. The external conversation continues with Luwin explaining what awaits Robb in the south—more bannermen—and what would happen if everyone stayed at Winterfell—a shortage of food. It’s all concrete information.

We also learn that it was Maester Luwin who came up with the idea for a new transportation method for Bran:

In his own way, Luwin is trying to make life as normal as possible for Bran; he has made it so Bran can move about with Hodor’s help though as I stated in the “Observation” section, the basket is a bit like a cage you keep a bird in. Luwin continues to educate and encourage Bran while being the responsible parental figure. Luwin is also the one who first tells Bran that his life will never be normal again; he will be looked at and there will be whispers. Notice that Luwin isn’t going so far as to tell Bran not to mind the mocking, rather Luwin is giving Bran a realistic depiction of what Bran can except from life now.

Skipping ahead a wee bit in the chapter, we have another conversation between Bran and Luwin that reinforces several of these ideas: empirical knowledge and the fatherly/son affection between the two.

Luwin is simultaneously praising Bran but also trying to be realistic: you are clever, when you work at it. Luwin cares for Bran a great deal but isn’t going to sugar coat the harsh realities of Planetos. Bran’s lofty dreams came crashing down with him and Luwin is too grounded in this reality to ever imagine Bran being able to achieve the more magical reality Bran longs for.

Next, notice also two things here. First, no man can teach you magic should remind you of the rumors about Bloodraven’s supposed dark magic/less than human qualities we learn about in the Dunk and Egg novellas. And, I think GRRM is making a quip here. The Citadel can teach Bran a thousand things….but Bloodraven can teach you a thousand and one (the one being the thing Bran wants to learn more than anything else).

Second, the list of things Luwin promises Bran he can learn were he to become a Maester are once again all things that are practical and rooted in math, science, and history. When Bran mentions the Children of the Forest and the giants that Osha tells him still live beyond the Wall, Luwin dismisses it by saying, “the wildling woman could give Old Nan lessons in telling tales, I think.” Luwin, of course, does not want to discourage Bran, but he’s being realistic. Bran cannot be a knight but that doesn’t mean he can’t live a good life. Bran is a clever and curious boy; he could easily wear a maester’s chain and serve the realm in another way. However, there is another option open to Bran if he decides to “march” the other way.

Conversations with Yoda: Osha

After Bran watches the Karstarks come into the castle, he decides to visit the godswood, which “was an island of peace in the sea of chaos that Winterfell had become.” This should sound pretty familiar; it’s the same sort of sentiment Cat expresses in her first POV while she is searching for Ned: “But she knew she would find her husband here tonight. Whenever he took a man’s life, afterward he would seek the quiet of the godswood.”

In Bran II, we learn that Bran was scared of the heart tree, but since the fall, things have changed quite a bit for the young boy:

Despite still clinging to the former southron dreams of being a knight, Bran has begun embracing his “northern Stark side.” He is not only drawn to the godswood to escape the chaos of Winterfell, but once there he feels more at peace than anywhere else. Cut off from the rest of the world, Bran can do things that he finds difficult in the presence of others like think and dream and pray.

It’s important that it’s during this time with the gods, while Bran is beseeching them in this scared place, that Osha, Bran’s second “Yoda” figure, comes to him.

A few things to point out here. First, Osha appears with the wind, moments after Bran has prayed to the gods for help and protection. She is like the answer to his prayer. This is not to say that Osha is some sort of mystical avatar, but rather she serves a spiritual guide until another one will come. She prepares the way for Bran, opening his mind to the idea that the Children and Giants and weights still exist beyond the Wall. If the crow opened Bran’s third eye, and Jojen Reed will help Bran with his gift, then Osha’s job is to make Bran aware of what is going on beyond the Wall.

Second, going along with this, notice that not only does Osha come with the wind, but she almost blends into the tree, her face being shadowed by leaves. She is a part of the “old-gods world.” At this time, it might be worth pointing out that with the World Book, there is an idea Yandel presents that the Wildlings are really just a group of First Men that exist beyond the Wall. The Starks, of course, pride themselves on having blood of the First Men. Osha and Bran are tied by blood (should Yandel’s idea be true) as well as religion and their magical expectations.

Unlike Bran’s first conversation with his other Yoda figure, there are neither instruments nor quantifiable data for Bran to latch on to here. Osha isn’t offering Bran empirical wisdom or numbers; she’s telling him—more or less—to believe in something he can neither prove nor see.

I think it’s worth pointing out that there are godwoods in the south. For example, from the World Book, we learn that there is an immense weirwood tree in the Reach known as the Three Sisters; Catelyn informs us early on that every great castle has a godswood; Arya pratcies her “needlework” in front of a white tree at Harrenhal; The Isle of Faces has many weirwoods and, Sansa prays in the godswood in King’s Landing. Osha’s ignorance about Westeros shows here but she takes on faith that the gods simply can’t see because there are no trees in the south. Bran, who is quite clever and educated, fears that this might be the case, though surely he would know that godswoods do exist south of the Neck, and if he did not already know, he could ask Luwin about it. But he doesn’t. Bran’s own mind is more inclined to trust in what Osha believes than what Luwin has taught him. We should probably keep that in mind moving forward.

Osha goes on to provide more information that is of a less concrete variety. All of these things Bran is expected to take on faith; they are not something that can be proven to him. Osha’s reasoning for believing that these creatures—giants and worse—exist is because “we remember.” She cannot give Bran anything other than cultural remembrance of a people that he is not apart of. And yet, as we saw in the second conversation with Luwin in which Bran references Osha’s words, Bran is more inclined to believe Osha’s tales than Luwin’s knowledge.

1. Giants

Notice here that the dichotomy of Luwin and Osha is once again presented. Luwin can provide something tangible—bones—to prove his point that the giants are all gone. Osha cannot produce anything other than fanciful stories that may or may not be true.

2. Worse than Giants

What is most interesting here is Bran’s belief. It’s simple and straightforward. If he wants to listen he has to hear, so he encourages Osha to tell him and he’ll tell Robb. Bran doesn’t want Robb—and I think we can extend this to Bran himself—to march the wrong way. Before his fall, Bran would have dearly loved the idea of going south as a knight to fight a noble war against he Lannisters to free his father. Now, Bran’s mind goes elsewhere, to the godswood and the Old Gods and old powers rising in the cold winds.

Very In depth analysis BearQueen :bowdown:

I don't have much to add but I really liked your comparison between Luwin and Osha. I kind of view this as science vs. mythos/supernatural and we are going to see this continue to reoccur throughout the next chapter and the next book.

Both schools seem to oppose each other, especially the maesters opposition of magic and the mythos, but I believe that isn't mean to be the case, especially when we have characters such as Septon Barth and Marwyn the mage that have successfully combined the two schools. For instance we have Marwyns "scientific" approach of prophesies which is very rational compared to most characters in the story view of prophecies and then we have Septon Barth's not making the same mistake of most maesters, which is "ignoring the mythos" but rather studying them with a scientific approach.

I believe Bran and Sam are going to be playing a large role in this theme of the series and possibly exploring how to combine the two.

We can also look at this from the "ice and fire coexisting" point of view, which is a prominent theme in the series. In this case the two schools co-exisitng might be one of the authors goals.

The knowledge that Osha gives to Bran can't be backed up by something like one of Yandel's references to a maesterly text, but it is empirical, grounded in direct experience, and as we all know, as we follow Bran's story we'll see him confronted with directly perceptible evidence of Osha's wildling knowledge. And indeed, as Luwin's tale progresses, we get more than a little hint of his own internal conflict between the institutionalized knowledge he was trained to use and share and his awareness that there are other truths out there not fully covered by the dogmas of the Citadel (fi that's not too strong a word for them).

.

I think that is one of the problems of the maesters, they easily dismiss the traditional stories rather than studying, which is what real scientists should do. Just like what I said above we have Marwyn, who doesn't dismiss magic in the east as fairy tales but actually goes there to study them.

I think that there might be some "poilitical players" that will try to use the new Long Night to their benefit. It's the nature of things for some to take advantage of the chaos, we've already seen this with Littlefinger. I think the world is interconnected in many ways and it would make sense that the magical and the political are interconnected as well.

I agree with the bolded, and I'll go on to add they might use some of the magic of the Long Night.

In AWOIAF when the Andals came some First Men fought them with help from the CotF, some with help from a woods witch raising wights and some by allying with other Kings, so politics and mythos may get closer and closer as the story goes on

Other Notes

On the Boltons:

loudest. Lord Roose never says a word, he only looks at me, and all I can think of is that room they have in the Dreadfort, where the Boltons hang the skins of their enemies.” “That’s just one of Old Nan’s stories,” Bran said. A note of doubt crept into his voice. “Isn’t it?”

Since this is a re-read we all know this is true, so again we have the truths of Old Nan tales being drilled home.

And on Winterfell's crypts:

Robb had set half the castle searching for him, and when at last they’d found him down in the crypts, Rickon had slashed at them with a rusted iron sword he’d snatched from a dead king’s hand, and Shaggydog had come slavering out of the darkness like a green-eyed demon.

This is similar to the Bael the Bard story, so I guess when there is a missing Stark, winterfell's crypts is where to look

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Just wanted to say quickly that these are great! I've started my re-read, a little later than you guys but I have been lurking and reading all your excellent analysis and observations!



Bravo to you all! I may join in at some point but there is a graceful flow to this forum that I don't want to interrupt (which, not that I think of it, I hope I'm not doing now). :uhoh:


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