[TWOIAF spoilers] Size and age of Asshai vs its poppulation and food resources hint at a past ecological disaster?

[Waters Gate]

I guess there are many things about Asshai that will dunbound us for a while, but one thing that led me to more questions in the text is the size of Asshai, that in comparison to it's poppulation and food resources.

So asshai is said to be very large:

Asshai is a large city, sprawling out for leagues on both banks of the black river Ash. Behind its enormous land walls is ground enough for Volantis, Qarth, and King’s Landing to stand side by side and still have room for Oldtown.

...

That is large. The 4 mentioned city's that could fit in Asshai's walls are afaik the largest city's in the known world. That means asshai must be a city that could house maybe a million people or more. It's also very old, been there forever and will stay there forever as the inhabitants of Asshai, testament of the durabilety of it's architecture then. It's like 10th century cordoba but then hardly inhabited?

But it's weird when you think about the issue's regarding food around Asshai. There aint any. Food has to be imported. So why build a city right there that can hold a million in poppulation when there is absolutly zip food around?

The size of Asshai makes me believe that the city must have had a million poppulation at some point, probably long ago. Probably something cataclysmic happened to reduce it's poppulation that much, though nothing in therms of sheer fysical destruction as there is none to see around Asshai, but rather more probably abrupt climate change, something that made the lands infertile.

The ash in Asshai might give a hint. Is the shaddows and the darkness around Asshai the result of an Ash cloud? An Ash cloud above Asshai would explain the shadows and the lack of fertile land.

[King Aegon The Conqueror]

It is quite interesting and a lot intrigued me about Asshai however I for one disbelief dragons reside around or near or even came from Asshai first.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Given the topography, I'm not sure Asshai could feed a large population even if the climate was good. The peninsula is quite narrow. Mountains occupy most of it. The mountains themselves seem to be very steep sided, so terraced agriculture might not be practical. Even the valleys in the upper reaches of the Ash River seem to be too narrow to grow much food. (This is assuming that in the past the Ash River was a valid source of potable water. That's a definite prerequisite for sustaining a large population.)

I see two possibilities-

1 - Jinqi exported lots of food to Asshai. It's a coastal route, with a river to an inland area that could grow a lot of grain. The delta area of Jinqi might even be suitable for growing rice, with its large calorie/acre ratio.

2 - The residents of all those houses in Asshai didn't need food. (They weren't alive in the sense we would define it.)

[Ser Lepus]

Planethos is Bas-lag in the future, and Asshai is all that remains of High Cromlech, the City of the Undead. :P

Now seriously, it is implied that Asshai is ancient beyond measure; for all we know, the Ash river was once a normal river when it was built, the mountains of the Shadow had many fertile valleys and maybe there was even a fertile delta in front of Asshai. The weird magic that kills animals, prevents pregnancies and drains light probably came later and screwed the city and country.

Most Asshai'i probably are undead now, with only the recent newcomers being alive and requiring food and drink.

[Jaak]

Note how disproportionately big the Wall of Westeros is.

[AzureOwl]

Another possibility is that in those days Ulthos produced the foodstuffs that fed Asshai at its height.

Having a massive city entirely dependent on imported food has precedent in the real world. In imperial times, the vast majority of the grain the 1 million people who lived in the city of Rome came all the way from North Africa and Egypt.

[ummester]

It is quite interesting and a lot intrigued me about Asshai however I for one disbelief dragons reside around or near or even came from Asshai first.

That's coz your a Targ lover and we can't have the superiority of that silver haired race being doubted, can we?

Asshai is where the dragons were made, you'll have to face up to it one day :D

[ummester]

As to the op, yes I am sure that Asshai shows a past ecological disaster - the playing with fire and dragons in Asshai destroyed the south pole of Ulthos and brought the Long Night theory.

[butterbumps!]

Wait-- what's the Ulthos theory-- destruction of the South Pole by fire?

Is the idea that the area at the bottom of the known world maps actually used to be the South Pole? As in, the "natural" equator should really read as cutting across where Pentos/ KL is, but what was the South Pole is now reading as an equatorial climate?

In this theory, does either Southyros or Ulthos go so far south they become north again? Southyros particularly sounds massive. The Valyrian who attempted to chart it via dragonback spent 3 years on the journey, and didn't even manage to get to the southern coast.

[ummester]

I'm working on this theory butter.

No, the Lands of Always Winter and Ulthos don't link up. They are 2 different poles, the equator doesn't run east west across the map because the planet has had a polar reversal and the magnetic field is misaligned - hence the funky seasons. The magical explanation, as promised, is dragons.

Southyros is mostly on the other side of the planet. It the globe was spread out, it would sit west of Westeros.

I posted a bit about it here, when I started thinking about it

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/119729-will-danys-dragons-reproduce/page-2

I need to draw/photoshop a map to correctly visualize it.

[H0X0]

I'll probably get chastised for saying so, but this seems like a WoT "break the world" scenario. Somewhere in the distant past (but in this series, long forgotten) magic was normal. Then someone fucked up hard. Now the seasons don't work. And Asshai was the center of that disaster. ( or more likely that place up the river. I don't have my book with my and the name escapes me at the moment)

[butterbumps!]

I'm working on this theory butter.

No, the Lands of Always Winter and Ulthos don't link up. They are 2 different poles, the equator doesn't run east west across the map because the planet has had a polar reversal and the magnetic field is misaligned - hence the funky seasons. The magical explanation, as promised, is dragons.

Southyros is mostly on the other side of the planet. It the globe was spread out, it would sit west of Westeros.

I posted a bit about it here, when I started thinking about it

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/119729-will-danys-dragons-reproduce/page-2

I need to draw/photoshop a map to correctly visualize it.

oh, ok. I'm honestly not sure if I understand all the mechanics this entails. I thought you were talking about east-west equator that was transferred to where the South Pole was formerly.

Honestly though, any of those landmasses could meet up off the map. I don't see any reason why Southyros, for example, couldn't end in the territory North of Westeros.

But you're also saying that the directions are off? You're saying that what appears south on the maps is actually west, Westeros is North, Essos is south? What would something like that truly matter? I mean, is there significance to that beyond being an explanation for magnetic reversals and polar shifts?

[ummester]

Polar and magnetic north may not be aligned on Planetos.

Imagine a globe, with an equator. Spin it down to the left, so the equator is on an angle. But north is still up.

If the planet has had a full polar reversal, as some believe is possible on ancient Earth, then north and south, east and west would literally be back to front.

I'm saying Planetos may have had one, when the ice on Ulthos melted, because of dragons and, because it only has one frozen pole left, has not settled correctly on it's axis. It's like a spinning ball flipping over and then continuing to wobble, as it spins, for a a long time.

[cgf]

The description of Asshai now is very much how I picture the Others' capital. With all of the hints at a pre-historic civilization that brought all of those black oily stone structures like the seastone chair, base of the Hightower, the mazes of lorath, all of yeen and asshai; it seems that their expansion was much larger than it is given credit for, whether they came from under the sea or simply traveled across the sunset sea. Such a civilization seeing its own "Doom" would just fit martin-world.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Magnetic north has no baring in TWOIAF as no 1 uses compasses. The fact is tho that Sothoros and Ulthos are not the South pole as we would know it on earth. The climate does not match, nor does the fact that Sothoros is apparently as big as Essos.

To the OP, a few errors. First kings landing alone supports a million people, and it is no where near 1 of the 4 largest cities in the world. All of the cities near Volantis are bigger as is bravos and probably many of the other cities in Essos. So Ashai at its height could have physically housed millions, tho the size of the river and fertile land around as pointed out makes that seem impossible without huge imports of both food and probably water.

[Spring Bass]

Asshai and possibly Stygai definitely seem to be remnants of an older, more populous civilization in the area, unless the city-builders of the former deliberately made walls with some incredibly generous room for future expansion. I don't really buy into the whole "they came from the sea" theory, but it's certainly possible that they raised some of the mysterious fire magic-created megastructures and were responsible for taming/controlling dragons.

[H0X0]

@ummester: wouldn't a sextant still be effective to determine latitude. There's no textual evidence I know of that supports the use of such a device, but there is support for celestial navigation (ice dragon=north). I don't know of any support for magnetic navigation.

[Jaak]

Asshai and possibly Stygai definitely seem to be remnants of an older, more populous civilization in the area, unless the city-builders of the former deliberately made walls with some incredibly generous room for future expansion.

Or did not think it necessary to live in densely packed buildings. Westeros behind the Wall is not densely built up either. The city-builders might have decided to have palaces and estates inside the walls with large gardens.

[Waters Gate]

1 - Jinqi exported lots of food to Asshai. It's a coastal route, with a river to an inland area that could grow a lot of grain. The delta area of Jinqi might even be suitable for growing rice, with its large calorie/acre ratio.

Trade is a possibilety, however the more people could have lived in Asshai, and we might be talking multiple millions, the more difficult it would be logisticly to bring in all those supplies by ship. the more so because were talking not only food but also fresh water. i don't think youre average human will eat up 3kg of food on a day but drinking 3 liter of water is easy, it would be extremely difficult i guess to bring that much fresh food and water to that city over distance.

But, imho, it also doesn't make sense to build such a huge city on an area so devoid of food that then will require such huge imports, unless there were really good reasons for it. There is gold there, but gold towns rarely become so big on gold alone. Normally big city's develop in fertile area's, especially the large city's of ancient and medieval times. Building a city of millions smack dab in the middle of some desert or artic wasteland where there was no food was not done.

2 - The residents of all those houses in Asshai didn't need food. (They weren't alive in the sense we would define it.)

For what do undead need shelter? Will they die withought a roof above their head?

I suppose it could be an explaination, but where are the undead now in Asshai? Shadows unseen, living in harmony with the small local freak cabinet?

Now seriously, it is implied that Asshai is ancient beyond measure; for all we know, the Ash river was once a normal river when it was built, the mountains of the Shadow had many fertile valleys and maybe there was even a fertile delta in front of Asshai. The weird magic that kills animals, prevents pregnancies and drains light probably came later and screwed the city and country.

Asshai is coastal and on a river, many big city's of our history are or were, the rivers usually were there for water atleast innitially before it got all polluted, and to irrigate farmland in the area, and being coastal would have given acces to possibly lots of fish. It's location doesn't sound so bad for a big city, the more so because it sits close to a channel to the unknown world which might otherwise have allowed her to levy toll on trade if there had been significant volume's of it around there. But there is no mention of trade comming from the other side, or Asshaians engaging a lot in fishing.

Another possibility is that in those days Ulthos produced the foodstuffs that fed Asshai at its height.

Having a massive city entirely dependent on imported food has precedent in the real world. In imperial times, the vast majority of the grain the 1 million people who lived in the city of Rome came all the way from North Africa and Egypt.

Imported food + water? :p

And Rome was a big city already even bore it expanded much to the east. Rome was not settled in an area devoid of food, a contraire in a very fertile area, and thanks to it's growth from local resources it could soon boast the size and manpower to take over the area's around it.

Sure, later Rome needed the imports, as the city grew ever more beyond that 1 million people. But a significant portion of the people wer efed with local resources, and water was brought into the city by aquaducts.

As to the op, yes I am sure that Asshai shows a past ecological disaster - the playing with fire and dragons in Asshai destroyed the south pole of Ulthos and brought the Long Night theory.

Well eitherway there were, actually quite logically, ecological changes over the span of thousands of years that the Woiaf covers. Just that in millenia of human civilizations, some great city's vanisched trough ecological calamity's. But it might be interresting to take note of signs of ecological changes trough history, as for ex. with the vanishing sea that once was a large inner sea inside the dothraki sea, and maybe see if a few things can be connected trough that. As for those pole's, i'm note sure about the tilt and magnetic pole's, there is a pole star though, the moon's behavior also gives some hints about the situation in space, but otoh i don't deem it impossible that there exist no such thing as a cold south pole, atleast things only seem to get hotter as one goes more south.

Is the idea that the area at the bottom of the known world maps actually used to be the South Pole? As in, the "natural" equator should really read as cutting across where Pentos/ KL is, but what was the South Pole is now reading as an equatorial climate?

Unlikely. one way that a human can determine if he's on the souther hemisphere or the northern one is look at the stars and the sun. In the north, the sun rises in the east, passes along the south, and settles in the west, but in the souther hemisphere, the sun actually passes along the north rather than the south during the day. This changes somewhat over the season on certain locations at the equator i presume due to the changing tilt. Afcourse, when talking north/south here, we do determine the north by seeing the north star, which the westerosi have but likely cannot be seen from the southern hemisphere.

But, an observation where the sun passes allong the north has not been noted yet. Even around the summer islands, so i have from the woiaf text, the sun passes along the south, giving hint to the summer islands being wel above the equator too.

The description of Asshai now is very much how I picture the Others' capital. With all of the hints at a pre-historic civilization that brought all of those black oily stone structures like the seastone chair, base of the Hightower, the mazes of lorath, all of yeen and asshai; it seems that their expansion was much larger than it is given credit for, whether they came from under the sea or simply traveled across the sunset sea. Such a civilization seeing its own "Doom" would just fit martin-world.

Yes it seems that the civilizations of planetos nowadays couldn't compete with the complexity, quality and size of civilizations in the past. Afcourse, if the long night is cyclical, then one could wonder why the 1st long night should in truth have been the 1st. A long night happened a few millinia ago, but maybe another one happened even more millenia before that and destroyed other civilizations as some sort of great cleanser.

To the OP, a few errors. First kings landing alone supports a million people, and it is no where near 1 of the 4 largest cities in the world. All of the cities near Volantis are bigger as is bravos and probably many of the other cities in Essos. So Ashai at its height could have physically housed millions, tho the size of the river and fertile land around as pointed out makes that seem impossible without huge imports of both food and probably water.

Good point. That said the more people the more illogical it becomes, the trade becomes more impossible logisticly and noone in history build city's that hosted millions in desolate lands unless there was some very good reason.

[jet199]

I wonder if Asshai was built before the long night and the population killed then. Quaithe says that Dany will find truth in Asshai, I thought that would be about dragons but if it is about LN2.0 then that may explain why Quaithe is so keen to influence Dany.

I also wonder if the corpse city, Stygai, may be related to the others as well. In Yi Ti to the north of Asshai we have legends of the Bloodstone emperor with his tiger bride who sounds a lot like Night's King and the forts in the north east, which sound a lot like a second Wall, that also has an un-dead city on the other side.

However, Asshai also sounds like a previous version of Hardholm or Valyria, destroyed by some unexplainable event and then left un-inhabitable. The question is which side destroyed it? Was it a human city destroyed by CotF or Others or was it maybe another darkness loving species' city, built to keep out humans, the humans then killed the population but could never fully take over the city.

I think it is likely Asshai was the centre of the first magical civilisation in Planetos and it was that civilisation which left the black stone everywhere and first rode dragons. If they had the ability to ride dragons and had bases in Westeros then that would mean the long night was something which they would have taken part in even if they were half a world away from where the Wall is.