[TWOIAF Spoilers] Female claimants to the Iron Throne

[Yukle]

This wasn't a question I thought of, so I'll include the original question here:

ACVG, on 03 November 2014, said:

I hope I got it

in world's, it says Robert has three golden heirs, for every other king only the sons are listed as heirs, is this a typo or did something change during Roberts rein?

"Moreover, the king and his beloved queen have given the realm three golden heirs to ensure that House Baratheon will long reign supreme."

My reply was:

That's a really good point... Umm... the best that I can speculate is:

It's a mistake. It can't really be a reference to Stannis and Renly because 1) that'd make four, not three and 2) Robert isn't responsible for producing them.

Or maybe the Baratheons won't be as strict as the Targaryens and will allow women to inherit after their brothers... ? Robert's claim to the Iron Throne comes from his maternal side, which the Great Council of 101 seemed to decide wasn't a legitimate source of a claim. They always placed the male progeny ahead of any female claimant or even a claim descended though the maternal line even if it meant handing power to a distant collateral relation.

A change made under Robert's rule must've changed this, in order to support his own claim to the Iron Throne, in which case Myrcella is an heir, after Joffrey and Tommen.

So here's my question: The Great Council of 101 and the horrific Dance of the Dragons made it a fairly strict law that female claimants to the Iron Throne are always last in the line of succession. Dany's claim exists ONLY due to being the surviving Targaryen.

The attempts to plant Myrcella on the Iron Throne due to the Dornish custom of equal primogeniture prove that Myrcella already has a claim ahead of Stannis and Renly Baratheon, who would've inherited the Throne ahead of her in accordance with the Targaryen inheritance customs.

However, The World of Ice and Fire clearly stipulates that Robert delivered the Realm three heirs, and Myrcella seems to be ahead of Stannis and Renly. Was this likely a formal change in law and convention on Robert and/or Jon Arryn's part? It'd make sense, as Robert needed to reverse the decrees that the Throne cannot pass through the female line so that his own claim is legitimate. Then again, is it simply a sign of him not caring for tradition; he did point out that his warhammer, not his blood, was his claim?

And, obviously, I know that the Baratheon children are really Lannisters. This is all assuming that nobody knows that. :P

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Well when the Baratheons took over, they could have changed the laws.
Its a very Cersei thing to do, so I don't think it is out of the question to have happened.

[naseridrl]

I always assumed that once Robert came along the IT went Andal. It makes more sense as its inline with the rest of the realm, save Dorne.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

All the situations the Great Councils have looked over.. The inheritance of Jaehaerys I, the inheritance of Viserys I, the inheritance of Maekar I, those were all claimants who originated from a line of Kings.

In Robert´s case, that´s different. In essence, Robert started his own royal line, with his children as his heirs. While the maesters might try to justify Robert´s placement on the Throne by using his blood line, Robert took the throne in reality by the rights of Conquest. He began a new line, and therefore, his children are his heirs.

When all his children are dead, only then will his brothers come into the picture. I think that´s the way it´s supposed to be looked at.

[Yukle]

In Robert´s case, that´s different. In essence, Robert started his own royal line, with his children as his heirs. While the maesters might try to justify Robert´s placement on the Throne by using his blood line, Robert took the throne in reality by the rights of Conquest. He began a new line, and therefore, his children are his heirs.

It's interesting to note that Westeros must have some discomfort with the idea that women can hold positions of power; after all it wasn't a Targaryen decree that decided to crown Jahaerys' younger grand-son over his elder grand-daughter. It was a custom of the Seven Kingdoms, or at least a majority of them, that made this decision.

So if the Baratheons are allowing their daughters to inherit ahead of other men with strong claims (Stannis is fourth third in line for succession, which isn't that far removed) it must be a fairly recent and radical decision.

[Knight Of Winter]

These laws are not god-given or unchangeable - and Robert certainly has no obligation to follow on Targaryen rules of primogeniture. If he declares Myrcella is 3rd in line, after Joffrey and Tommen - then Myrcella is third in line.

So if the Baratheons are allowing their daughters to inherit ahead of other men with strong claims (Stannis is fourth third in line for succession, which isn't that far removed) it must be a fairly recent and radical decision.

It's neither recent nor radical. All of Westerosi houses, save for Targs, put daughters ahead of brothers in line of succession. Notice how Jon Snow tells Cregan Karstark that Daughter comes before an uncle by all the laws I know. Indeed, we have examples of women being rulies ladies - just take a look at Lady Oakheart in Reach or Lady Waynwood in Vale.

[naseridrl]

You also have the new Lady Cerwyn in the North.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

The thing I'm confused with is the inheritance of wives. Arwen Oakheart, Shyra Errol, Anya Waynwood are all likley born from that house, and married men from others. But Barbrey Dustin was a Ryswell who married a Dustin. Now she is the last with the Dustin name and not a trueborn Dustin. So wives after all other family? However I think this is a case of heirdom stretching back generations, as Dustins and Ryswells have certainly married before, so Barbrey probs already had Dustin blood. Then what? One of her cousins, who also have three generation old or whatever Dustin blood?

[ACVG]

After Baelor died without heir, the world's book mentions how Deana's name was mentioned, but to avoid another conflict, the crown went to Viserys. I'm sure a lot of Westerosi would prefer Stannis to a woman Myrcella. There are certain cultures who seem to "tolerate" being in charge more, such as the Vale or seemingly the North as they accepted Rhaenarys (sp?) and obviously Dorne. I don't remember any mention of female at the head of houses in Westerlands or Stormlands

[The hairy bear]

However, The World of Ice and Fire clearly stipulates that Robert delivered the Realm three heirs, and Myrcella seems to be ahead of Stannis and Renly. Was this likely a formal change in law and convention on Robert and/or Jon Arryn's part?

I think that the key issue here is that Robert did not won the crown by inheritance, but by conquest.

When a brother inherits, he doesn't inherit because he is brother of the last king, but because he is a descendant of a previous one. In other words, Viserys II did not came to the throne for being uncle to Daeron or Baelor, or for being brother to Aegon III, or even cousin to Aegon II. He inherited because he was a descendant of Jaehaerys I.

Since Robert won the throne by conquest, he is the first of his new royal dinastany. And I'm sure that because of this some would say that Myrcella comes before Stannis.

[Colonel Green]

All of Westerosi houses, save for Targs, put daughters ahead of brothers in line of succession. Notice how Jon Snow tells Cregan Karstark that Daughter comes before an uncle by all the laws I know.

Though one should note that House Stark clearly did not do that in the 2nd century AC, as Cregan Stark passed over his granddaughters by his eldest son Rickon in favour of his younger sons (basically, exactly what Jaehaerys I did with Rhaenys and Baelon).

[Lord Varys]

I don't think that the 'Baratheon conquest' affected the precedents or the succession of the Iron Throne. It was still kings on the Iron Throne, after all. The fact that Stannis and the Lannisters consider Shireen and Myrcella claimants to the Iron Throne is not at odds with the succession during the Targaryen era. Various kings and Great Councils decided at various points to go with the male instead of the female, but Stannis' and Cersei's outlook reflects that in time of civil war your own blood comes before that of the traitorous brother or evil uncle.

[Maid So Fair]

It's a book written for the Lannisters and after Stannis rebels against the IT so it stands to reason his claim would be discounted and all of Robert's children considered potential heirs. It also never says that a female cannot be an heir at all, just that male heirs are preferred IIRC.

[The Academic Wolf]

Though one should note that House Stark clearly did not do that in the 2nd century AC, as Cregan Stark passed over his granddaughters by his eldest son Rickon in favour of his younger sons (basically, exactly what Jaehaerys I did with Rhaenys and Baelon).

I don't think that we know clearly that that is what happened- certainly, Serena and Sansa were passed over, but I believe that it is because something shady happened with Jonnel, Edrich (sp?) Barthogan and Brandon. Despite having children, Edrich (sp?) the third son's line, was passed over in favour of the fourth son, then again in favour of the fifth son. So, perhaps Cregan disinherited his granddaughters, or perhaps his surviving sons had a coup. Not all of the Starks can be honourable badasses, after all.

[Yukle]

Though one should note that House Stark clearly did not do that in the 2nd century AC, as Cregan Stark passed over his granddaughters by his eldest son Rickon in favour of his younger sons (basically, exactly what Jaehaerys I did with Rhaenys and Baelon).

This is the sort of thing I was thinking of. And the Starks supported the claim of Viserys I in the Great Council. There are some women who can inherit in their own right in the North, such as the Mormonts, but it seems that, at least 200 years ago, the Starks preferred the claim of a son born to a man than a son born to a woman.

It's neither recent nor radical. All of Westerosi houses, save for Targs, put daughters ahead of brothers in line of succession. Notice how Jon Snow tells Cregan Karstark that Daughter comes before an uncle by all the laws I know. Indeed, we have examples of women being rulies ladies - just take a look at Lady Oakheart in Reach or Lady Waynwood in Vale.

Given that's the case, then it seems stranger and stranger that the Great Council of 101 should support Viserys. It is complicated and I may not be remembering it correctly, but wasn't he more distantly related to Jaehaerys than the other claimant whose name escapes me? Yet because his relationship was though his paternal rather than maternal line, he was crowned?

Similarly, the Dance of the Dragons only happened because much of the Realm refused to allow a woman to inherit while she had male heirs still alive. This suggests at least some of Westeros cannot tolerate a woman ruling no matter how many laws or decrees the king makes.

[Knight Of Winter]

1) Given that's the case, then it seems stranger and stranger that the Great Council of 101 should support Viserys. It is complicated and I may not be remembering it correctly, but wasn't he more distantly related to Jaehaerys than the other claimant whose name escapes me? Yet because his relationship was though his paternal rather than maternal line, he was crowned?

2) Similarly, the Dance of the Dragons only happened because much of the Realm refused to allow a woman to inherit while she had male heirs still alive. This suggests at least some of Westeros cannot tolerate a woman ruling no matter how many laws or decrees the king makes.

1) Did Great Council really concern itself with legality of candidates' claims? Or did they just think of ad hoc solution to solve current crisis and elected someone who they thought would be best? I'll say I don't know - and I haven't yet read TWOIAF where it may be expanded.

2) Well, that's the ultimate truth. Medieval laws are not formalized, and can be ignored if it suits everyone. To quote SSM:

The medieval world was governed by men, not by laws. You could even make a case that the lords preferred the laws to be vague and contradictory, since that gave them more power.

So, if lords didn't want Rhaenrya on the throne, they could (and did) just overthrow her - no matter what current law says about it.

[Annara Snow]

It's a book written for the Lannisters and after Stannis rebels against the IT so it stands to reason his claim would be discounted and all of Robert's children considered potential heirs. It also never says that a female cannot be an heir at all, just that male heirs are preferred IIRC.

But there's also the scene in ACOK between Stannis and Renly, where Stannis promises Renly he'll make him his heir if he bends the knee to him. He would have no reason to tell him that if Renly was already Stannis' heir over Shireen, so his promise implies that he would normally come after Stannis' daughter.

[R'holling Stone]

In AFFC, it is made clear after Tywin dies (with the disowning of Tyrion and Jaime's status in the kingsguard) That Cersei is now the lady of Casterley Rock. Tywin has a living brother, Kevin, as well as nephews by Kevin and Tygg who would be ahead of her if women were truely last to inherit, so by that reason Myrcella comes before Stannis and Renly

[Colonel Green]

In AFFC, it is made clear after Tywin dies (with the disowning of Tyrion and Jaime's status in the kingsguard) That Cersei is now the lady of Casterley Rock. Tywin has a living brother, Kevin, as well as nephews by Kevin and Tygg who would be ahead of her if women were truely last to inherit, so by that reason Myrcella comes before Stannis and Renly

The Iron Throne has (or had, in the past) different succession rules than the rest of the Seven Kingdoms' noble titles.

[The Academic Wolf]

In AFFC, it is made clear after Tywin dies (with the disowning of Tyrion and Jaime's status in the kingsguard) That Cersei is now the lady of Casterley Rock. Tywin has a living brother, Kevin, as well as nephews by Kevin and Tygg who would be ahead of her if women were truely last to inherit, so by that reason Myrcella comes before Stannis and Renly

Interestingly, the World book family tree lists Kevin as Lord, not Cersei, after Tywin.