[TWOIAF Spoilers] Aerys and Joanna II

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why? If is it not true--what is the point of getting readers to speculate about it?

it's called a red herring.

[Lord Varys]

But we can assume that 'reigning as a paramour' could suggest that she had the ear of the king? At least while they were in bed together...?

Well, if the queen dismisses you, you better leave court. Not sure what you should do there if you are not allowed to attend the queen. That's what noble ladies do at court, after all. How is that not a banishment?

It is later stated that Aerys was pissed about the might and splendor of Casterly Rock. The same thing may have happened while they hung out there together in 267/8. Especially considering that Aerys would have witnessed Tywin's official taking over as Lord of Casterly Rock, how all the Lords of the West did him obeisance, and so on.

Whether Aerys explicitly summoned Joanna to his anniversary tourney is not clear. He commands Tywin that he gets his children and their mother as soon as they can travel. But that's in 266 AC, and Aerys sees both of them later on when he visits the West in 267. We don't know who called Joanna to court in 272.

[Chaircat Meow]

But we can assume that 'reigning as a paramour' could suggest that she had the ear of the king? At least while they were in bed together...?

But it doesn't imply influence in the way 'ruled as mistress' does. Some paramours might be very influential, some might not be.

Well, if the queen dismisses you, you better leave court. Not sure what you should do there if you are not allowed to attend the queen. That's what noble ladies do at court, after all. How is that not a banishment?

I don't think being in the Queen's service and being at court are the same thing. She was the hand's wife so presumably she could live with her husband. I rather doubt the Queen could have succeeded in banishing the hand's wife and the king's ex-paramour from the capital altogether. Ladies at the court in Joffrey's reign didn't automatically have to join the retinue of Margarey or Cersei, or be in service to them.

It is later stated that Aerys was pissed about the might and splendor of Casterly Rock. The same thing may have happened while they hung out there together in 267/8. Especially considering that Aerys would have witnessed Tywin's official taking over as Lord of Casterly Rock, how all the Lords of the West did him obeisance, and so on.

So we're supposed to think CR annoyed him despite it never been mentioned in the body of the narrative of Aerys's reign unlike Joanna? Really.

Whether Aerys explicitly summoned Joanna to his anniversary tourney is not clear. He commands Tywin that he gets his children and their mother as soon as they can travel. But that's in 266 AC, and Aerys sees both of them later on when he visits the West in 267. We don't know who called Joanna to court in 272.

True, I had that jumbled in my mind. But it is very revealing that Joanna's appearance is preceded by a paragraph detailing Aerys's plan to put Tywin in his place. Moreover, we know there were instructions from Aerys to go to court with the children when they were old enough, and Joanna apparently did not go to KL much. As they were 'presented' I expect that was the first time they'd been there.

[UnmaskedLurker]

it's called a red herring.

Not really. A red herring is a false clue that is intended to be misleading or distracting. The problem here is multi-fold. First, GRRM usually seems to have his red herring stated by someone in-story. No one has explicitly stated the possibility that Tyrion might be the son of Aerys. Second, and a corollary, is that because no one has stated this speculation in-story and the clues are relatively subtle, very few readers will even pick up on the possibility. A red herring does not really act as a red herring if almost no readers pick up on the clues. It is not a distraction if only a very few people are distracted.

Additionally, a red herring should be a distraction from some other theory that is the "real" answer to a mystery. What other mystery does this red herring serve as a possible distraction from?

If these clues are just a dead end--subtle clues meant to be picked up by the most attentive readers--but to come of nothing but a pure distraction--that is not a red herring but rather mere trolling by GRRM. Isn't GRRM above this type of trolling?

[Lord Varys]

On Joanna's influence:

If Aerys was into her as much as you seem to believe, it is only natural to assume that she had a pretty good chance to get from him what she wanted. I did not say that she was ruling the Realm...

From my understanding of medieval royalty, you were fried if the monarch said something like 'I don't want to see you again' to you. That did not mean 'You can hang out in my castle as long as you stay out of my sight'. It meant 'Get the hell out of here'.

If the queen shuns your presence, you become an outsider, and by extension all that are associated with you. The queen leads the way for the noble ladies at court, just as king does for the men.

Tywin had at that point virtually no power at court, since he had been just named Hand. If Joanna had stayed, he possibly had been ousted pretty soon. Note that the whole firing ladies-in-waiting thing suggests that Rhaella had quite a lot of influence and power at court prior to Aerys accusing her of adultery. And we should also keep in mind that Queen Dowager Shaera must have been around as well, at that point. She survived Summerhall, and there is no reason to assume that she died with Jaehaerys II.

I did not mean that CR pissed off Aerys, but Tywin's might and power, the way he ruled, the things he could show off etc. might have pissed off Aerys. Joanna may have even been a part of it, but not necessarily the core obsession of Aerys. But I concur that Joanna most likely was the woman among his many mistresses that Aerys desired most. Else Barristan Selmy would never have mentioned her at all.

[Chaircat Meow]

She was a lady-in-waiting. It is a specific job, like a servant. She had to carry the Queen's messages, supervise her servants and oversee her wardrobe. Most women at the court will not be ladies in waiting. We are told the Queen dismissed her from her service because the king was in danger of making her his whore. The ladies were obviously in close proximity to the Queen and by extension the king. It would be bizarre to imagine Joanna was forbidden to live with her husband because of this (how does that stop her turning into a whore), or that Aerys would have let the Queen banish his mistresses.

The take from this is that as soon as Joanna was released from service to the Queen she was off like a shot. She didn't want to stay and be with her new husband. It sounds like she wanted out of KL and to be away from Aerys whom the Queen thought was still sniffing after her even post marriage.

I did not mean that CR pissed off Aerys, but Tywin's might and power, the way he ruled, the things he could show off etc. might have pissed off Aerys. Joanna may have even been a part of it, but not necessarily the core obsession of Aerys.

The time spent at CR seems to have turned Aerys against Tywin. There needs to be an explanation for that and I think Aerys's proximity to Joanna is the best fit. Aerys only started hating Tywin for being the real ruler of the seven kingdoms a bit later.

[Chilli]

I'm not a fan of the idea of A+J=T, as it seems to undercut Tyrion's arc with his father, but I have to admit it feels more likely now.

Me neither. It undermines the relation between Tyrion and Tywin. If Tyrion is indeed not his son, Tywin was right not to like him. I would have liked it more if Tyrion was his only real son. Cersei and Joffrey are more similar to Aerys. Tyrion could still ride a dragon through some distant Targaryen ancester or doing like Netlles did with sheepstealer or doing something with the dragon horn.

The thing is we might never find out for sure because Aerys, Joanna, and Tywin are all dead. And Barristan Selmy is in Mereen.

[Chaircat Meow]

This is not an A+J=T thread. I do not subscribe to that theory at all. This is about Aerys, Tywin and Joanna and the theory that Aerys had an obsession with Joanna which culminated in her rape in 272.

edit: actually, that ^^^ only applies to my OP but feel free to continue discussions from the old thread as well. So yes, this can be an A+J=T thread if you want. It is called Aerys and Joanna II after all.

[Wouter]

In reply to post #649 of the old thread, by Wmarshal:

3. Hull Brothers, they were twins. And Colys isn't reported to be a son of any Targaryen, nor is he one.

4. She doesn't research, not even when she learns her dad was a mad man.

3. The Velaryons are Valyrians in their own right. Even if this would not make them dragonlords, as close allies of the Targaryens from before the doom of Valyria they regularly intermarried with Targaryens (in fact, Aegon the conqueror's mother was a Velaryon girl). It is very like that he has Targaryen blood through a few of those marriages dating back from around the time of the Doom till Corlys was born.

4. Dany isn't always particularly interested in answers she may not want to hear (allthough I think she will learn about Aerys before she sets foot on Westeros), but in this case she has reasons to want an explanation that would maintain her worldview. And it's not like she has to do research; she will likely be surrounded by men who will put it together for her, Barristan being the prime candidate.

[Lord Varys]

Corlys may have had a Targaryen mother - either Rhaena Targaryen in yet another marriage, or one of her daughters - as TRP claimed that Laenor inherited the blood of the dragon from both his parents. That could mean that Corlys had some Targaryen ancestors prior to the Conquest, but that would put this thing very far in the past.

[RumHam]

Additionally, a red herring should be a distraction from some other theory that is the "real" answer to a mystery. What other mystery does this red herring serve as a possible distraction from?

Does R+L=J not fit here? I could imagine this "Tyrion is a secret Targaryen" thing being one of Martin's responses to everybody figuring out his big reveal like a decade early.

[Wouter]

In reply to "Stallion that mounts Texas" post #639 of the old thread:

1. Abortion is readily available in the Seven Kingdoms. Joanna Lannister would have almost assuredly have taken it following a rape/encounter with Aerys. The only reason she would not have, is if she was sure she was carrying Tywin’s child. This is a lioness of the Rock, who ruled even Tywin at home. This was no weakling.

2. Aerys is credited as being a "mad rapist", but he only handled his wife roughly, otherwise he only kept mistresses. There is no record of him raping anyone, save his wife, although he would likely view it as claiming his marital rights.

3. Timing is a huge problem. When would this have occurred? From the world book we know that Joanna headed and resided in the West once she married Tywin, and rarely left. Aerys only came West twice that we know of. He held court in the West after Lord Tytos’ death in 267 AC and during in 276 AC, during Tywin’s tournament in the West to celebrate Viserys’ birth. From Cersei in AFFC, we know that she, Jamie, and their mother stayed in the West with Lord Tytos, and that Tywin would come home for leave from KL, which makes sense given he and Aerys gave the realm good and plenty at the start. Tywin is born in 273 AC. It could only have happened during the tourney held in KL to celebrate Aerys’ tenth year on the throne, when he utterly humiliated Lady Johanna. I highly doubt it.

Joanna raped in the midst of Casterly Rock? The most recognizable man in the kingdoms (the King) secretly raping the wife of the most powerful lord in Westeros, and nobody heres or sees of it? Someone would have known.

5. Why did Tywin not join the rebellion outright? He quietly waited for Aerys to come begging him to be his hand. Tywin did not officially forsake house Targaryen until after the Trident. Knowing Tywin as we do, if he had any inkling that Aerys assaulted his beloved wife, he would have joined Robert’s Rebellion immediately.

6. Tywin tried for Tyrion as his heir. He sought offers for Tyrions hand: Yohn Royce, Hoster Tully, Leyton Hightower, and Dorne all refused him robustly. He even had to offer him to the Florent girl Robert deflowered on Stannis’ wedding night. Lord Florent gave her to a household knight instead.

He finally gave him Sansa instead, as a reward, and as a key to the future of the North. When Jaime looked to be all but toast in AGOT, Tywin settled on Tyrion as all he had left, and removed him from the fighting to KL. He would not have done these things for Aerys’ get.

8. Tyrion has mismatched eyes of black and green, and a mixture of pale blonde and black hair. Not exactly Targaryen features.

11. Tywin making statements like “You’re not my son,” or “You’re my son,” are simply phrases showing approval and acceptance. These are used to own or disown children all the time, because of their actions or misdeeds. No hidden meaning were intended.

13. The only way this works is if there were true feelings between Aerys and Joanna, and a secret tryst took place. This runs counter to everything we know from the reading.

1.Even real-life modern anticonception methods aren't 100% reliable. Joanna may have been sure, but incorrectly so.

2. Aerys is credited as having desired sex with Joanna and the world book suggests they had an affair before she married Tywin. It is not certain it was "mad rape", Joanna could have been coerced or even have been willing. That there is no record of him raping anyone save Rhaella also doesn't say much; very few would have known and none of them would have want it recorded.

3.The world book gives an easy solution for the timing: Joanna was in KL, in Aerys' powerbase, in 272 AC.

5. Tywin did not join because Jaime was a hostage for the king.

6. One of the things that define Tywin in the main books is that he never ever would accept Tyrion as heir to Casterly Rock. He made this clear in no uncertain terms, to Tyrion himself.

8. As Maia has mentioned multiple times on the old thread, both the pale hair and the mismatched eyes are known Targaryen traits.

11."No hidden meanings intended", you say. Well, if there are no hidden meanings, then this quote of Tywin (speaking to Tyrion) leaves little to the imagination:

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

This is not a father who is annoyed with his son. "I cannot prove that you are not mine" is the key here. So many on those forums just cannot bring themselves to believe Tywin on this, so sure that Tywin can only mean that a dwarf can't be his and not that he knows or heavily suspects Aerys had his way with Joanna.

13. The world book suggest Joanna and Aerys had an affair, back when Aerys was still charming.

[Wouter]

Corlys may have had a Targaryen mother - either Rhaena Targaryen in yet another marriage, or one of her daughters - as TRP claimed that Laenor inherited the blood of the dragon from both his parents. That could mean that Corlys had some Targaryen ancestors prior to the Conquest, but that would put this thing very far in the past.

At the time, Velaryons and Targaryan intermarried regularly. The Velaryons were almost as much the Royal House as the Targaryens themselves, and Lord Corlys in particular was a force to be reckoned with for the Targ queens/kings of the period.

[Wouter]

Does R+L=J not fit here? I could imagine this "Tyrion is a secret Targaryen" thing being one of Martin's responses to everybody figuring out his big reveal like a decade early.

The first (vague) suggestion of Tyrion being a bastard is early in AGOT. And so is his obsession with dragons, and the foreshadowing about the long shadow that he could cast. If it's true, it was there from the start.

It's not a sign of a bad writer if his readers (particularly when they band together on forums) can figure something out; that's a sign that his plots tend to not come out of left field but follow logically from what was established before. Twists just to shock are a cheap device.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Does R+L=J not fit here? I could imagine this "Tyrion is a secret Targaryen" thing being one of Martin's responses to everybody figuring out his big reveal like a decade early.

I am not sure what you are suggesting here. Are you suggesting that A+J=T has been introduced to get people off the scent of R+L=J? Or are you suggesting that GRRM invented A+J=T because he was pissed that everyone figured out R+L=J and so now he needs a new secret that most people won't figure out?

If you mean the first, GRRM is not that naive. He is well aware that the RLJ theory is too well analyzed to be affected in any way by the ATJ theory.

If you mean the second, I find that highly unlikely as well. If ATJ is true, GRRM meant it from the beginning. Some of the subtle clues are all the way back in GoT. And if this explanation is correct, then that would argue in favor of ATJ (although, again, ATJ, if true, must have been part of the story from the beginning).

GRRM has said over and over again that he is not changing anything just because people figures some things out. I tend to believe he is telling the truth here.

The first (vague) suggestion of Tyrion being a bastard is early in AGOT. And so is his obsession with dragons, and the foreshadowing about the long shadow that he could cast. If it's true, it was there from the start.

It's not a sign of a bad writer if his readers (particularly when they band together on forums) can figure something out; that's a sign that his plots tend to not come out of left field but follow logically from what was established before. Twists just to shock are a cheap device.

:agree: Yes, this is basically the point I have been trying to make for days when people say ATJ is just a red herring. It does not seem to really work as a red herring, and no one has given a good explanation for how it does. The closest are people claiming that when Tyrion rides a dragon, people will assume ATJ and then it will turn out there is a different explanation. That theory for how it could work as a red herring seems quite weak to me, but maybe it is what GRRM is thinking. I agree, however, that it would essentially be a cheep device because it does not really serve any purpose in the story and is a "shock" only to the very few who thought they had figured out ATJ. That is a lot of work just to punk a hand full of his most loyal fans.

[RumHam]

I am not sure what you are suggesting here. Are you suggesting that A+J=T has been introduced to get people off the scent of R+L=J? Or are you suggesting that GRRM invented A+J=T because he was pissed that everyone figured out R+L=J and so now he needs a new secret that most people won't figure out?

The former. I'm really not sure what he's aware of fan-theory wise other than the questions in the SSM entries.You make good points though, and I was probably way off base.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The former. I'm really not sure what he's aware of fan-theory wise other than the questions in the SSM entries.You make good points though, and I was probably way off base.

Thanks for the acknowledgement. I am still waiting for someone--anyone--to give me a good reason why GRRM has planted all of these ATJ clues if it is not true. Basically, for any theory, there are three possibilities. One is that the person coming up with the theory is seeing connections that are not there. For years, people claimed that ATJ fell into this category. That claim frustrated me because the hints seemed pretty clear to me, but in any event, now that WoIaF has come out, all of the nay-sayers seem to have abandoned that approach.

So the second possibility, which is the popular argument du jour, is that these hints are merely part of an elaborate red herring from GRRM. But as I tried to explain above, from a literary point of view, it does not work as a red herring. No one ever says it explicitly, so not that many people will pick up on it. And there is no alternative mystery for which ATJ serves as a distraction to give an alternative solution rather than the "real" solution. So it really cannot be a red herring.

The third possibility--the one I subscribe to--is that the theory is correct.

The only other possibility--I suppose a 4th possibility--is that GRRM is merely trolling or punking a few selected hard-core fans with a theory that he planted his first clues regarding almost 20 years ago--all for the purpose of what? Sending people on a wild goose chase for book after book on a nonsense theory to keep them busy? Just to laugh that he tricked them into believing a stupid theory that has no impact on the story at all? Why would GRRM do that? So if he is not doing that and theory is no true, then we are back to calling it a red herring, and what reasonable alternative is there that justifies calling this theory a red herring?

[Ramsay Gimp]

I love your username

[RumHam]

I love your username

I love your custom title. Sometime recently I made the Day Man/Daemon connection, and now I always think of Daemon Blackfyre as a master of karate and friendship for everyone.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I love your custom title. Sometime recently I made the Day Man/Daemon connection, and now I always think of Daemon Blackfyre as a master of karate and friendship for everyone.

He was truly the champion of the sun...but he never paid the troll toll