[TWOIAF Spoilers] Aerys and Joanna II

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Every clue has a "cover meaning" so that it is not too obvious what GRRM is trying to hint at. So yes, maybe it means that--but when taken with all the other clues regarding A+J=T, it seems quite possible that it represents his Targ half laughing and his Lannister half weeping. It it the totality of the clues--rather than any one clue--that makes the theory convincing.

Oh, I totally agree with the A+J=T theory. And I think this dream may have larger implications--e.g., perhaps the root of Tyrion's conflict with his family is the traits he has inherited from his Targ side--but I still think this is one of those dreams that is "just a dream," i.e. only symbolic of what's going on in the character's mind rather than prophetic or symbolic of what's going on in the larger world.

Semi-related: I'm re-listening to GoT on audiobook, and going back over Tyrion and especially Tyrion/Tywin chapters with this theory in mind, it adds a lot of possible layers of meaning to their interactions. For example, when Tyrion returns from the Vale and meets Tywin, I now wonder if part of Tywin's anger at Tyrion for "letting himself get kidnapped" is that the situation gave Tywin uncomfortable reminders of the time Aerys was captured. That was a terrible bind for Tywin, and it left Aerys much the worst for wear. Perhaps Tywin feared some similar outcome from Tyrion's capture?

Actually, the more I think about their relationship in general, the more I think that a big part of Tywin's animosity towards Tyrion is that Tyrion may remind him of young Arys. Young Arys was clever, witty, had big plans and a big mouth, and really liked the ladies. Those are all Tywin's least favorite traits about Tyrion. Maybe Tywin has been trying to metaphorically beat the Arys out of Tyrion his whole life?

Either this theory is super-right or I'm getting super-crazy...

[stangles]

Well to air my own bias I would disappointed if A+J=T because it seems like there are too many secret babies in this story. But to be honest this world book was the first time I have taken this theory as a possibility. All the stuff in the main books are easily explainable in a way which doesn't lend credence to this theory. I knew when I read that Joanna was dismissed and it was hinted that she had had sex with Aerys that all this would flood the boards. It might be true but I certainly don't put it in the same category of surety that I do for R+L=J.

The one thing that bugs me about this is when Joanna returned in 272 AC and Aerys made fun of her breasts. The next day Tywin tried to resign and Aerys refused. Makes sense for an insult. If Joanna had been raped (and I am presuming at this later stage it would not have been consensual due to the being with Tywin and the insulting manner towards her from Aerys) surely Tywin would have told Aerys in no uncertain terms to F*** off and prepare for war. Otherwise he would just have been a coward like his dad.

Also years later there is no way that Tywin would have let Aerys survive the Darklyn rebellion if Aerys was Tyrions father. He would have immediately assaulted the walls so that they killed Aerys as revenge. To do as he did implies that he didn't know about being cuckolded. Which wrecks other evidence that he did know in the main story.

[Chaircat Meow]

Semi-related: I'm re-listening to GoT on audiobook, and going back over Tyrion and especially Tyrion/Tywin chapters with this theory in mind, it adds a lot of possible layers of meaning to their interactions. For example, when Tyrion returns from the Vale and meets Tywin, I now wonder if part of Tywin's anger at Tyrion for "letting himself get kidnapped" is that the situation gave Tywin uncomfortable reminders of the time Aerys was captured. That was a terrible bind for Tywin, and it left Aerys much the worst for wear. Perhaps Tywin feared some similar outcome from Tyrion's capture?

SoS is good for that. Tywin compares Tyrion's desire for praise to Aerys's once, and looks unhappy when Tyrion mentions Joff might be Aerys III. Tyrion stops a rowdy bedding at his wedding with Sansa, where Joff probably wanted to take liberties (unless I'm confused with the show) which is interesting wrt Tywin's wedding to Joanna.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Well to air my own bias I would disappointed if A+J=T because it seems like there are too many secret babies in this story. But to be honest this world book was the first time I have taken this theory as a possibility. All the stuff in the main books are easily explainable in a way which doesn't lend credence to this theory. I knew when I read that Joanna was dismissed and it was hinted that she had had sex with Aerys that all this would flood the boards. It might be true but I certainly don't put it in the same category of surety that I do for R+L=J.

The one thing that bugs me about this is when Joanna returned in 272 AC and Aerys made fun of her breasts. The next day Tywin tried to resign and Aerys refused. Makes sense for an insult. If Joanna had been raped (and I am presuming at this later stage it would not have been consensual due to the being with Tywin and the insulting manner towards her from Aerys) surely Tywin would have told Aerys in no uncertain terms to F*** off and prepare for war. Otherwise he would just have been a coward like his dad.

Also years later there is no way that Tywin would have let Aerys survive the Darklyn rebellion if Aerys was Tyrions father. He would have immediately assaulted the walls so that they killed Aerys as revenge. To do as he did implies that he didn't know about being cuckolded. Which wrecks other evidence that he did know in the main story.

These are all really good points. If the theory is true, it's a huge turnaround in our understanding of and expectations for one of the most popular and important characters in the story. And of course, due to everything in the whole story being limited POV, it's hard to know anything for sure unless we get multiple eyewitness accounts (and sometimes even that's wrong, i.e. Davos's head being mounted on the walls of Whiteharbor).

However...due to lots of things I and others have mentioned, plus Tywin's well documented tendency to act stoic and angry towards people he cares about, and to put the larger picture ahead of his gut-reactions, I posit that Tywin

1) actually still cared about Aerys a lot and hated seeing him go crazy enough to assault a woman he'd once loved, and

2) was not about to go to war over a personal slight in any case.

I think Tywin wanted to give Aerys every chance he could based on how close they had once been. Also, reading between the lines of the Worldbook, it seems to me that Aerys, Joanna, and Tywin all had complicated relationships with each other their whole lives. Tywin and Joanna both would know full well that Aerys was batshit crazy by this point, so they wouldn't react the same way as if someone random assaulted Joanna. Aerys was Tywin's old frenemy and his king--and besides, Tywin's too smart to declare war against the king for personal reasons, even if the king is a nutjob.

Also, don't forget Tywin was suspected of conspiring with Rhaegar, so clearly he had an investment in the Targaryen family that went beyond Aerys. All that leads to Tywin not being in a position to tell Aerys to "F***off and prepare for war." They were too wrapped up in each other's lives to effectively do that. Remember Tywin didn't even join Robert's Rebellion until the very end, i.e. after Rhaegar had been killed and it was all over but the shouting.

(Although, supposing Tywin was that invested in Aerys's family, I admit it does strongly beg the question as to why he would order the murder of Elia and her children...perhaps he didn't? Perhaps he was being honest when he said he didn't know what Ser Gregor was yet? More mystery!!!)

[stangles]

These are all really good points. If the theory is true, it's a huge turnaround in our understanding of and expectations for one of the most popular and important characters in the story. And of course, due to everything in the whole story being limited POV, it's hard to know anything for sure unless we get multiple eyewitness accounts (and sometimes even that's wrong, i.e. Davos's head being mounted on the walls of Whiteharbor).

However...due to lots of things I and others have mentioned, plus Tywin's well documented tendency to act stoic and angry towards people he cares about, and to put the larger picture ahead of his gut-reactions, I posit that Tywin

1) actually still cared about Aerys a lot and hated seeing him go crazy enough to assault a woman he'd once loved, and

2) was not about to go to war over a personal slight in any case.

I think Tywin wanted to give Aerys every chance he could based on how close they had once been. Also, reading between the lines of the Worldbook, it seems to me that Aerys, Joanna, and Tywin all had complicated relationships with each other their whole lives. Tywin and Joanna both would know full well that Aerys was batshit crazy by this point, so they wouldn't react the same way as if someone random assaulted Joanna. Aerys was Tywin's old frenemy and his king--and besides, Tywin's too smart to declare war against the king for personal reasons, even if the king is a nutjob.

Also, don't forget Tywin was suspected of conspiring with Rhaegar, so clearly he had an investment in the Targaryen family that went beyond Aerys. All that leads to Tywin not being in a position to tell Aerys to "F***off and prepare for war." They were too wrapped up in each other's lives to effectively do that. Remember Tywin didn't even join Robert's Rebellion until the very end, i.e. after Rhaegar had been killed and it was all over but the shouting.

(Although, supposing Tywin was that invested in Aerys's family, I admit it does strongly beg the question as to why he would order the murder of Elia and her children...perhaps he didn't? Perhaps he was being honest when he said he didn't know what Ser Gregor was yet? More mystery!!!)

I think even a sentimental person is not going to let a rape slide let alone someone like Tywin. Even if he was practical enough to not go to war and bide his time there is no way he would stay working as the Kings Hand surely?

[Winterfell is Burning]

I think even a sentimental person is not going to let a rape slide let alone someone like Tywin. Even if he was practical enough to not go to war and bide his time there is no way he would stay working as the Kings Hand surely?

Yep. And Pycelle was his lackey, I'm sure he could be convinced to put something in Aerys food; that way, Tywin would become Regent and marry Cersei to Rhaegar, and all Tywin's problems would be solved.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well to air my own bias I would disappointed if A+J=T because it seems like there are too many secret babies in this story. But to be honest this world book was the first time I have taken this theory as a possibility. All the stuff in the main books are easily explainable in a way which doesn't lend credence to this theory. I knew when I read that Joanna was dismissed and it was hinted that she had had sex with Aerys that all this would flood the boards. It might be true but I certainly don't put it in the same category of surety that I do for R+L=J.

The one thing that bugs me about this is when Joanna returned in 272 AC and Aerys made fun of her breasts. The next day Tywin tried to resign and Aerys refused. Makes sense for an insult. If Joanna had been raped (and I am presuming at this later stage it would not have been consensual due to the being with Tywin and the insulting manner towards her from Aerys) surely Tywin would have told Aerys in no uncertain terms to F*** off and prepare for war. Otherwise he would just have been a coward like his dad.

Also years later there is no way that Tywin would have let Aerys survive the Darklyn rebellion if Aerys was Tyrions father. He would have immediately assaulted the walls so that they killed Aerys as revenge. To do as he did implies that he didn't know about being cuckolded. Which wrecks other evidence that he did know in the main story.

You don't resign as the second most powerful person in the kingdom over a stupid insult by a crazy king. You might feel you have to try to resign over rape of your wife. Going to war was not an option--that would mean almost certain death for Tywin and his family. Tywin would not have gotten large support like RR had. In that society, you just accept that the king can do these things. Remember the nature of the society. No matter how "proud" Tywin may be--he was a survivor (at least until Tyrion killed him).

[Mithras]

If Aerys loved Joanna so much, he could have kept Joanna in KL, no matter what Rhaella said because, you know, he is the king.

[Maia]

Oh, I totally agree with the A+J=T theory. And I think this dream may have larger implications--e.g., perhaps the root of Tyrion's conflict with his family is the traits he has inherited from his Targ side--?

To be honest, Tywin the morose introvert seemed much more of a white crow in House Lannister than Tyrion, who shared most of the traits that Tywin disliked with other Lannisters - Jaime, his younger uncles, Genna, etc. OTOH, I don't doubt that Tywin somewhat irrationally saw them as Aerys's heritage...

Actually, the more I think about their relationship in general, the more I think that a big part of Tywin's animosity towards Tyrion is that Tyrion may remind him of young Arys. Young Arys was clever, witty, had big plans and a big mouth, and really liked the ladies. Those are all Tywin's least favorite traits about Tyrion. Maybe Tywin has been trying to metaphorically beat the Arys out of Tyrion his whole life?

IMHO, Tyrion did become a punchbag for Tywin's Aerys issues, whether the latter consciously admitted it, or not. And, of course, poor Tyrion unknowingly hit on exactly the wrong way to get his father's attention - i.e. making fun at his expense, jokingly insulting him, etc. We now know that Tyrion had been obliviously dancing on a minefield there for his whole life.

It does explain some things that seemed odd from the start in their interactions, though - i.e. Tywin mostly shrugging off even somewhat public insults from Tyrion, being inured to this stuff, as we now know, while also setting Tyrion up to be mocked and encouraging his bannermen to laugh at his son (!), when he had been otherwise so protective of reputation of House Lannister and respect owed to it's name.

And also, why Tywin didn't interfere more decisively between Joffrey and Tyrion, when it became clear that bad blood between them and Joffrey's continuing pursuit of Sansa could become very counter-productive in a hurry.

But if seen from the angle of Tyrion being Aerys's stand-in in Tywin's eyes, all of this makes a twisted kind of sense.

Even Tywin's otherwise inexplicable willingness to believe that Tyrion might betray the family could be understood from his conflation of Tyrion with Aerys, a close friend (almost a brother?) who had betrayed him in the worst way possible + standard bastard prejudices.

And Aerys's betrayal must have been all the more hurtful for the fact that Tywin clearly didn't open up and make friends easily, and that it also likely ruined his relationship with Steffon Baratheon, who might have been the only other friend that Tywin ever made.

I hasten to say, that none of it excuses or justifies Tywin's actions, but it does explain a lot of the stuff that always conflicted with his image as a cool, logical, power-hungry, "a task for every tool, a tool for every task" person, who merely hated Tyrion for his dwarfism.

[Chaircat Meow]

Yep. And Pycelle was his lackey, I'm sure he could be convinced to put something in Aerys food; that way, Tywin would become Regent and marry Cersei to Rhaegar, and all Tywin's problems would be solved.

Tywin didn't actually consider Pycelle a confidante and probably never asked him. Pycelle would have said no, and if he said yes he's thick, as poison is likely to point back to the Grand Maester if he's known to favour a disaffected courtier.

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

Having fun with this, probably been said before. Here is a quote on Tyrions appearance in Jon I AGOT.

One green eye, one black one peered out of the lank fall of hair so blonde it seemed white.

Also interesting one green and one black eye, where have we heard green and black before? - A Dance of Dragons.

Whereas Jaime and Cersei are said to have golden hair, not so blonde it seemed white. We also know of one family famous for hair so blonde it seemed white - the Targaryens.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Having fun with this, probably been said before. Here is a quote on Tyrions appearance in Jon I AGOT.

Also interesting one green and one black eye, where have we heard green and black before? - A Dance of Dragons.

Whereas Jaime and Cersei are said to have golden hair, not so blonde it seemed white. We also know of one family famous for hair so blonde it seemed white - the Targaryens.

Good catch. It has been noted before, but I think it is always a useful reminder that GRRM was dropping hints in book 1. Now Tommen at one point is described as having hair almost white, but as he aged, it became blond like the other Lannisters. Tyrion, on the other, has hair that stayed almost white. As with pretty much all the A+J=T clues, not definitive, but when added together with every other clue, it seems pretty convincing.

[Lord Varys]

With Betha Blackwood as Aerys' grandmother - who also conveniently passed on her black hair to Prince Duncan - we have also a pretty good explanation for Tyrion's black hair.

The Lannisters on the other seem to be predominantly blond, although not necessarily every Lannister has golden hair (Baratheon-Durrandon matches aside).

Another thing on the dragon dreams stuff:

The common argument to dispute the importance of Tyrion's dragon dreams as a clue is mostly done by pointing out that Tyrion does (apparently) not have any prophetic dreams like Daeron the Drunk or Daemon II Blackfyre. But this does not need to be the case, especially not since TWoIaF as Egg's dragon dreams also seem to be merely (prophetic) dreams heralding the return of real dragons to Westeros rather than prophetic dreams symbolizing Targaryens as dragons (at least I have no clue how dragons flying over Westeros should somehow symbolize men or women of House Targaryen).

Another thing is that Tyrion's dragon dreams are downplayed to the level of being nothing but his way to enact his hate fantasies against his father and sister, nothing but the fantasies of a young boy who wants to be great and powerful and strike back against those who hurt him.

However, the text suggests that there is more to this than that. First, Tyrion shows a fascination for dragons from a very early age onwards - he must have been very young when he asked for a dragon as a nameday present as pretty much any boy of noble birth would learn at a very early age that dragons are extinct. This suggests that Tyrion first dreamed of dragons long before he developed a strong hatred of his sister and father (that would have come over time, and only blossomed to hate fantasies, I imagine, when he hit adolescence).

Tyrion also shows an obsession for dragons that clearly transcends a normal interest in those creatures. Even long after his dragon dreams supposedly ceased, he is still fascinated by the creatures. He reads books about them, instead of, say, other topics that actually matter.

As a Lannister there is really no reason why he should dream of dragons and not, say, lions, in the first place, especially during his hate fantasies. After all, stories about the Lannister-lion-connection are all over the place (Casterlys, Lann, etc.), whereas there is no reason why Tyrion should feel drawn to or identify with a Valyrian dragonlord or a Targaryen prince.

Finally, we should also consider that Tyrion connecting his dragon dreams with his hate fantasies against Cersei and Tywin was more a means to relate to Jon than a really conclusive explanation about the origin of his dreams. Tyrion does not know that he is Aerys' son, and that means that he cannot really know why he used to have those dragon dreams. Perhaps he believes that any lonely and mistreated child like himself has such dreams? And thus he assumes that Jon Snow did, too? Tyrion does not really know all that much about other children since he grew up as a lonely child, and the thought that he may actually be descended from a Targaryen apparently never crossed him mind. That means that he never second-guessed or investigated his dragon dreams thoroughly (or at all).

[Lady Barbrey]

Not really. A red herring is a false clue that is intended to be misleading or distracting. The problem here is multi-fold. First, GRRM usually seems to have his red herring stated by someone in-story. No one has explicitly stated the possibility that Tyrion might be the son of Aerys. Second, and a corollary, is that because no one has stated this speculation in-story and the clues are relatively subtle, very few readers will even pick up on the possibility. A red herring does not really act as a red herring if almost no readers pick up on the clues. It is not a distraction if only a very few people are distracted.

Additionally, a red herring should be a distraction from some other theory that is the "real" answer to a mystery. What other mystery does this red herring serve as a possible distraction from?

If these clues are just a dead end--subtle clues meant to be picked up by the most attentive readers--but to come of nothing but a pure distraction--that is not a red herring but rather mere trolling by GRRM. Isn't GRRM above this type of trolling?

I'm not going to engage in this one but thought I would say thanks for this great description of what a red herring is. It can be used for any number of other situations that are food for speculation too in this series. To sum up this argument, the Tyrion parentage question and the subtle but fairly solid info we have can be construed in three ways:

1) George is playing with his readers, trolling; or

2) The info is a red herring. If so, what is it distracting us from? or

3) Tyrion is Aerys' son.

I'm going to reserve judgement though I'd say in a probability test that 1 and 2 are possible but 3 is very plausible in addition to being possible. Are any of them probable? Not without more evidence.

[Lady Barbrey]

To be honest, Tywin the morose introvert seemed much more of a white crow in House Lannister than Tyrion, who shared most of the traits that Tywin disliked with other Lannisters - Jaime, his younger uncles, Genna, etc. OTOH, I don't doubt that Tywin somewhat irrationally saw them as Aerys's heritage...

IMHO, Tyrion did become a punchbag for Tywin's Aerys issues, whether the latter consciously admitted it, or not. And, of course, poor Tyrion unknowingly hit on exactly the wrong way to get his father's attention - i.e. making fun at his expense, jokingly insulting him, etc. We now know that Tyrion had been obliviously dancing on a minefield there for his whole life.

It does explain some things that seemed odd from the start in their interactions, though - i.e. Tywin mostly shrugging off even somewhat public insults from Tyrion, being inured to this stuff, as we now know, while also setting Tyrion up to be mocked and encouraging his bannermen to laugh at his son (!), when he had been otherwise so protective of reputation of House Lannister and respect owed to it's name.

And also, why Tywin didn't interfere more decisively between Joffrey and Tyrion, when it became clear that bad blood between them and Joffrey's continuing pursuit of Sansa could become very counter-productive in a hurry.

But if seen from the angle of Tyrion being Aerys's stand-in in Tywin's eyes, all of this makes a twisted kind of sense.

Even Tywin's otherwise inexplicable willingness to believe that Tyrion might betray the family could be understood from his conflation of Tyrion with Aerys, a close friend (almost a brother?) who had betrayed him in the worst way possible + standard bastard prejudices.

And Aerys's betrayal must have been all the more hurtful for the fact that Tywin clearly didn't open up and make friends easily, and that it also likely ruined his relationship with Steffon Baratheon, who might have been the only other friend that Tywin ever made.

I hasten to say, that none of it excuses or justifies Tywin's actions, but it does explain a lot of the stuff that always conflicted with his image as a cool, logical, power-hungry, "a task for every tool, a tool for every task" person, who merely hated Tyrion for his dwarfism.

Excellent psychoanalysis that made a good deal of sense.

[Lady Barbrey]

A couple of things that I'm sure you've all noticed. In the series bathroom scene, Tywin vehemently says to Tyrion 'I am not your father' or you're no son of mine. In the show he says I AM your father so you can't kill me. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this but I particularly noticed this and I had read the book years earlier.

So I think in the books it might matter who Tyriins dad is but it is not going to make a huge difference to the show, and likely not to the overall story arc.

As I have posited elsewhere I think anyone with dragon blood is doomed at the end if the series, I hope Tyrion is all Lannister.

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned: the clues to T's parentage might be the same ones Tywin followed to believe he might not be Tyrion's dad. I'm not sure whether Tywin cared about Joanna's early affair with Aerys. He might even have been using her to further Lannister interests in the early days. He's just that kind of guy. But once she became his wife that was another matter, and Aerys's actions at the bedding made him put his foot down and threaten to resign. He sent a strong message that he wouldn't put up with it. That's the end of that, but then his wife gives birth to a pale-haired dwarf with mismatched eyes at a time when it was just possible she might have conceived him with Aerys whose own wife had given him a dozen possibly monstrous stillbirths. And Joanna dies so he can't have it out with her. I think it's very possible he truly believed Tyrion was Aerys's son, whether or not that's true. But what could he do but acknowledge the boy even if he believed he was the kings bastard? To me, regardless of Tyrions dwarfism, that would go a long way to explaining Tywin's attitude towards Tyrion. And imagine the slap in the face when Aerys turned up his nose at Cersei and then made Jaime a Kingsguard, putting Aerys's own son, as Tywin believed, as head of the House of Lannister.

That to me is another possibility and just as strong a one as that Tyrion was actually Aerys's.

[stangles]

Well lets say that Tyrion is Aerys son and that Tywin new about it. I can't get past this problem. Maybe Tywin would have been too prudent to go to war with the crown. Maybe he was even to much of a coward to even walk away from being the hand without permission. Or maybe he just wanted to stay close so he could wait for revenge.

Well 1. He didn't take that opportunity for revenge at Duskendale when he had ample opportunity.

2. Is there any reason why when Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion that he didn't just kill the baby and tell everyone it was a stillbirth? Does anyone really think its not in Tywins nature to order the death of a baby that makes mock of his house? Not killing the baby only makes sense if its his or he at least thought it was. And Joanna wouldn't have been around to stop him.

[Sanset]

I think after 26/27 years Tywin is Tyrion's father no matter who was there with Joanna Lannister. For the dragons he might have the drops of dragonblood that are needed, for psychological reasons Tyrion will still have father Tywin issues. Actually in the Dance with Dragons, Tywin is Tyrion's father. That is what he feels and that is his reality. So, it doesn't change anything in the Tyrion/Tywin dynamics if Aerys was Tyrion biological father. Tyrion is almost 30 years old. Tywin is still a hell of a father for Tyrion beyond genetics. It is interesting the comparison Tyrion does with Griff and Tywin, even when JonCon seems ok with fAegon. Tyrion compares the way both treat him, even when after all, Griff rescued him from the water.

Rhaenyra's half-brother Aegon II had her fed to his own dragon, Sunfyre, at Dragonstone. It is a curious parallel with Tyrion because he, also, had power issues and his (supposed) half-sister fed him to the dragon=power. Tywin named him Hand, as Rhaenyra's father named her heir. That was what made the siblings clash.

I think Tyrion didn't do really well handling the power when he was The Hand. (Yes, he did some good things, But) He raised high and fast in the shadows, but he also collapsed low fast. He was devoured by the dragon=power. It seems it is in his plans to try and ride the dragon again; maybe he can this time around. He read books about actual dragons and books about history, but reading books and remembering stuff is one thing, learning is a different story.

I like Tyrion, and I hope he can mend his broken heart, but I also think that dragons cannot be ridden with history lessons, it is a very good thing to read though. Maybe Tyrion is Jaehaerys I reborn so he can ride and read, and travel. . . And talk, because, Tyrion talks too much and he's got a sharp tongue that causes him a lot of troubles.
Even more, he's still considering himself with right to Casterly Rock but he forgets the detail that killing Tywin turned that into an unsuitability to be the heir. So, that reckless claim will get him in serious trouble. It is a very dangerous thing and shows he still can't handle the dragon.

Anyway, maybe I suffer Melisandre's syndrome and Tyrion rides a dragon, but if his time as The Hand is a foreshadow of riding a metaphorical dragon, it will be for a very short time for his fire made flesh dragon.

[Lady Barbrey]

Well lets say that Tyrion is Aerys son and that Tywin new about it. I can't get past this problem. Maybe Tywin would have been too prudent to go to war with the crown. Maybe he was even to much of a coward to even walk away from being the hand without permission. Or maybe he just wanted to stay close so he could wait for revenge.

Well 1. He didn't take that opportunity for revenge at Duskendale when he had ample opportunity.

2. Is there any reason why when Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion that he didn't just kill the baby and tell everyone it was a stillbirth? Does anyone really think its not in Tywins nature to order the death of a baby that makes mock of his house? Not killing the baby only makes sense if its his or he at least thought it was. And Joanna wouldn't have been around to stop him.

I'm not sure about #1. I think he was all ready to do just that but when Selmy publicly volunteered to play the hero he needed to let him try, not expecting in a million years he would succeed.

#2 - he couldn't be sure. I don't think he was ever sure or Tyrion might have met a convenient accident some time in his upbringing. Also, Tyrion was Joanna's son regardless of who his father was. He seems to have loved his wife so might not want to kill her son, who was also after all a Lannister through her if not through himself. Lots of reasons I guess, but we will never know.

[walkingWITHcersei]

I guess I am still not being clear. While I think more than 3 people might ride a dragon, riding a dragon is the not the same as being one of the people who has been prophecized to be a head of the dragon, foreseen to be a savior of humanity in the Battle for the Dawn. I doubt the dragonhorn will work as advertised so I don't think Euron will ride a dragon, but maybe. It really does not matter because even if Euron or Vic ride a dragon, I doubt he is a head of the dragon. I think (f)Aegon will ride a dragon but I do not think he is one of the three heads of the dragon.

Again, back to Rhaegar's quote. He states "The dragon must have three heads." What do you think the prophecy means when the prophecy indicates that the dragon must have three heads? Keep in mind the context is Rhaegar talking about his conclusion of Aegon being TPTWP. We know that TPTPW is prophecized to win the Battle for the Dawn. Rhaegar also says, "There must be one more." This statement suggests that Rhaegar thought his three children would be the three heads (he only had two at the time)--he would train them to win the war--and they would work together as a team. Obviously, Rhaegar got some things wrong--but I think we can trust his actual quotes of the prophecy as being actual quotes from the prophecy--it is then up to the readers to try to figure out what the prophecy really means. So I think the part about the dragon having three heads is from the actual prophecy.

So what does it mean? You seem to suggest it just means that the three dragons will have three dragon riders and these three dragon riders will be the three heads. I think that reading is not paying close enough attention to the words. It is not that the dragons (plural) need three heads--it is that the dragon (singular) needs three heads. The dragon--singular--in this context must mean House Targ--I have tried to come up with alternative theories and none seem plausible to me. Targs are the House with the three-headed dragon sigil. Other references in prophecy to a dragon are understood to mean a Targ (Aemon lets us know that the original language of the prophecy actually was closer to a reference to the Dragon that was promised rather than the Prince that was promised). Dragon in the prophecy does not mean a literal dragon. The Dragon must have three heads means that House Targ must have three representative to work together to win the battle (and presumably one of the heads is the prince (or dragon) that was promised).

A prophecy is a vision of the future. The seer sees this vision and tries to put it into words. The seer apparently saw something that equated to the dragon having three heads going into the great battle and saving humanity. We don't know what was really seen in the vision, but it was described in some way as a dragon having three heads--we can now conclude that is a most likely a Targ reference (even if the seer had no way to know that at the time--it does not matter whether the seer knew what it meant or even could have known what it meant--only what was seen).

Bran is not a Targ and has no Targ parent. Maybe he can warg (or skinchange) a dragon--I don't know for sure. But that cannot make him one of the heads of the dragon. Only someone with a Targ parent who is "of the dragon" (i.e., a child of a Targ) can be one of the three heads from the prophecy. What is the alternative reading of the "dragon" (singular) having three heads?

So I ask again, even if Bran can warg (or skinchange) a dragon, how does that make him one of three prophecized heads of the dragon?

I really like ur take on this. I've never heard it suggested till now that the three heads could be agents of a Targ leader. This could very well be the truth of it. My question is if ur correct that The Dragon (Targ ruler) is separate from the three heads how do we know the heads don't refer to the actual dragons instead of people. It's possible IMO that "the Dragon must have three heads" simply means the king/queen must have three dragons. In all the prophesies we've heard every mention of dragons turns out to actually be about Targs. So a prophesy about dragons wouldn't call them dragons rather a different symbolism would be needed to differentiate real dragons from Targ dragons. Saying three heads could be taken to mean three dragons instead. Any thoughts?