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Chaircat Meow

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Aerys and Joanna II

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In reply to "Stallion that mounts Texas" post #639 of the old thread:

1.Even real-life modern anticonception methods aren't 100% reliable. Joanna may have been sure, but incorrectly so.

2. Aerys is credited as having desired sex with Joanna and the world book suggests they had an affair before she married Tywin. It is not certain it was "mad rape", Joanna could have been coerced or even have been willing. That there is no record of him raping anyone save Rhaella also doesn't say much; very few would have known and none of them would have want it recorded.

3.The world book gives an easy solution for the timing: Joanna was in KL, in Aerys' powerbase, in 272 AC.

5. Tywin did not join because Jaime was a hostage for the king.

6. One of the things that define Tywin in the main books is that he never ever would accept Tyrion as heir to Casterly Rock. He made this clear in no uncertain terms, to Tyrion himself.

8. As Maia has mentioned multiple times on the old thread, both the pale hair and the mismatched eyes are known Targaryen traits.

11."No hidden meanings intended", you say. Well, if there are no hidden meanings, then this quote of Tywin (speaking to Tyrion) leaves little to the imagination:

This is not a father who is annoyed with his son. "I cannot prove that you are not mine" is the key here. So many on those forums just cannot bring themselves to believe Tywin on this, so sure that Tywin can only mean that a dwarf can't be his and not that he knows or heavily suspects Aerys had his way with Joanna.

13. The world book suggest Joanna and Aerys had an affair, back when Aerys was still charming.

My very last go at this:

1. Moon tea may (or any contraceptive) may not be 100%, but they are usually in the mid to high 90’s. From what we can gather from the reading, its pretty effective. If Joanna Lannister was raped, she would have taken moontea immediately. The only way she would not have is if she knew she was already with her husband’s child.

2. The world book speaks of rumors, nothing more, or concrete. It is also stated that Aerys lost interest in his conquest after a time, unlike Aegon IV. He never seemed to lose interest in Joanna, signaling a failed conquest. Additionally, he most assuredly would have used his conquest of Joanna to spite Tywin. Tywin marrying Joanna, stands as yet another perceived victory over Aerys and reason for his spite. Joanna’s dismissal was likely remove the one woman Aerys wanted above all others, simple pride and vanity on the part of the queen. GRRM tells us that marriage between Tywin and Joanna was an

extremely happy one, and I’m inclined to believe him.

3. A solution, maybe, but not a simple one. Many assumptions have to be made. All of the eyes and ears in KL would have had to miss the king raping the wife of the most powerful lord in Westeros (or summoning her to his chambers). It must have escaped Lannister guardsmen, serving girls, Tywin, her children, the King’s Guard, just to name a few. Not buying it.

5. No, Tywin could have used the same strategy he used to sack King’s Landing. Showed up with his army and professed loyalty in order to gain access to the city. He would took the same risk of Aerys murdering Jamie at any point. Additionally, Kevan made it clear in ADWD that Tywin was waiting patiently for Aerys to beg him back as his Hand. Tywin did not abandon House Targaryen until after Rhaegar died on the Trident.

6. He made that clear after Jaime was free, and after Cersei had poisoned his ear (regarding taking Tommen hostage over a whore) during Tyrion’s illness. He called the Rock “Your brothers birthright.” And you still must venture back to AGOT, after Jaime’s capture via the Whispering Woods, and Ned’s idiotic execution thanks to Joff. Tywin had given Jaime up for dead and recognized Tyrion as all he had left. So he sent him to KL, away from the field and harm.

8. I disagree. Silvery-gold (platinum) hair and purple/violet eyes are known Targaryen traits. The pale hair (Blood raven) and mismatched eyes (Shiera Seastar) may have occured, but not enough to be a known/common feature. One of Tyrion’s eyes is black for goodness sake. Tyrion’s condition is most likely the result of his deformity.

11. Again, you have to look at the entire conversation and its context. Jaime is free and Cersei has further poisoned Tywin’s ear. Also, it would suggest that Tywin would love for a legit way to get rid of Tyrion. He does not want a son who invokes the very essence of the thing he hates most, laughter. Its just too big of a leap to take that particular phrasing and jump to such a conclusion.

13. Again, the world book cites rumors and tells us the queen dismissed Joanna from her service. The attentions/affections of a handsome and charming young king,towards a very beautiful woman will spark rumors and jealousy. The queen having what is perceived as a legit rival in her midst, would most likely lead her to dismiss the threat. Additionally, Joanna was not dismissed from the queen’s service until after her marriage/bedding, and Aerys’ liberties (excessive groping).

This theory is and has been simply too thin from the start.

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If true, this makes Aerys's decision to open up his gates to Tywin after the Trident even more baffling. "Your Grace, we are now officially the losing side of this war. In other news, the man whose wife you raped has an army outside the city. Should we let him in?" :dunce:

Granted, trusting Tywin at that point would have been an idiotic decision even without any hypothetical rape (they had plenty of other bad blood and Tywin was known for his ruthlessness), but still, for a "paranoid" figure like Aerys this makes little sense.

This

People need to stop using "Lannister cronies" or "Lannister bias" as an excuse to dismiss anything remotely positive about them. There is no evidence that Joanna didn't love Tywin back

This x2

True. But paranoia was always a key aspect of his insanity, especially re. Tywin. I suppose desperation played a big part

This x3

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My very last go at this:

1. Moon tea may (or any contraceptive) may not be 100%, but they are usually in the mid to high 90’s. From what we can gather from the reading, its pretty effective. If Joanna Lannister was raped, she would have taken moontea immediately. The only way she would not have is if she knew she was already with her husband’s child.

Given Joanna did have a child in 273 which she clearly thought was Tywin's isn't that reason enough to conclude she might well have refrained from moon tea in 272 whatever happened? And I don't think A+J=T but given moon tea is not 100% effective Tywin could never know if Tyrion's birth was about nine months or less from the day Aerys raped his wife.

2. The world book speaks of rumors, nothing more, or concrete. It is also stated that Aerys lost interest in his conquest after a time, unlike Aegon IV. He never seemed to lose interest in Joanna, signaling a failed conquest. Additionally, he most assuredly would have used his conquest of Joanna to spite Tywin. Tywin marrying Joanna, stands as yet another perceived victory over Aerys and reason for his spite. Joanna’s dismissal was likely remove the one woman Aerys wanted above all others, simple pride and vanity on the part of the queen. GRRM tells us that marriage between Tywin and Joanna was an

extremely happy one, and I’m inclined to believe him.

Pycelle dismisses in fanboyish terms the claim Joanna lost her maidenhead to Aerys on the night of Jaehearys's coronation. I'm pretty sure we're meant to conclude from that that she did indeed lose her maidenhead. If something scurrilious is denied outright with poor reasoning it is a big red alert that it is actually true. The reason Aerys continued to be interested in Joanna long after he ought to have lost interest is because he had some sort of special attraction to her, as Barristan flags up. She's not just any mistress, she's the woman Aerys comes to wish, on some level, he married. Aerys did use the affair to spite Tywin: in 272 Tywin and Joanna are very upset when Aerys implies he's seen Joanna's breasts and that makes sense as a reminder of the prior affair and the fact Tywin took Aerys's leavings. We are told ladies-in-waiting were dismissed when Aerys was in danger of 'turning them into whores,' so it is a sign Aerys was still pursuing Joanna after her marriage. She appeared to want to get away from him and left the capital to seldom return.

3. A solution, maybe, but not a simple one. Many assumptions have to be made. All of the eyes and ears in KL would have had to miss the king raping the wife of the most powerful lord in Westeros (or summoning her to his chambers). It must have escaped Lannister guardsmen, serving girls, Tywin, her children, the King’s Guard, just to name a few. Not buying it.

Why the fuck do you think no one would know about this if it happened? It clearly did not escape Tywin: he wanted to resign the next day. Isn't Tywin kind of making it obvious to everyone there that something happened. People won't necessarily be clear she was raped, but they'll probably suspect Aerys and Joanna spent the night together. Pycelle furiously denies rumours Joanna was ever Aerys's mistress, despite it being pretty obvious she was, so omitting this bit of humiliation for his hero is not unlikely.

13. Again, the world book cites rumors and tells us the queen dismissed Joanna from her service. The attentions/affections of a handsome and charming young king,towards a very beautiful woman will spark rumors and jealousy. The queen having what is perceived as a legit rival in her midst, would most likely lead her to dismiss the threat. Additionally, Joanna was not dismissed from the queen’s service until after her marriage/bedding, and Aerys’ liberties (excessive groping).

Nah, utter failure to read the clues properly. The Queen knows there is shit all she can do if Aerys wants loads of mistresses. We are actually told she is indulgent towards his lovers and mistresses. She just won't let him make her ladies, her intimate servants and confidantes, his mistresses. It is not about disposing of rivals, it is an insistence she's not going to be demeaned by the king sleeping with members of her own household. So the fact Joanna was dismissed after the marriage strongly suggests Aerys was still pursuing her then. Her flight from the capital afterwards suggests she was not happy about that. If she really wanted to be his mistress she could have stayed, and she also took herself away from her new husband when she wasn't even needed as lady of Casterly Rock (as Tytos was still alive).

This theory is and has been simply too thin from the start.

It is not thin at all.

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In 272 Aerys finally turned on his hand completely and decided to make himself king again by 'reclaiming' Lady Joanna. Note that we're told about his meeting with Joanna just after the passage which told us Aerys had a plan to put Tywin in his place. Thus, when Aerys specifically summoned Joanna to King's Landing he already had a plan in mind; his remarks about her breasts didn't just get said in passing, or by chance. The invitation to King's Landing is very significant because it seems as though Joanna avoided the place, and, if I'm right, Aerys had found it difficult to carry through with his desires in the heart of lannister power. So he raped her in KL.

We don't hear much about how Joanna felt about this, but I think the weight of evidence is strongly towards her not wishing to have anything more to do with Aerys after she married Tywin. In SoS I am fairly sure (but if someone could check for me it would be appreciated) that it is said Tywin and Joanna loved each other, not just that Tywin loved Joanna. In the world book Joanna's only on page reaction is humiliation at being reminded she was once Aerys's mistress, so it seems that was something she wanted to put behind her. That means she's unlikely to have welcomed Aerys's continued advances.

I think Aerys's obsession with Joanna had to be pretty noticeable and had to continue while she was alive. Otherwise Barristan was unlikely to have mentioned it to Dany when asked who Aerys was interested in. And it also seems very likely, therefore, that the bedding incident was not the end of the story but only the beginning.

The text clearly states that Joanna was banished from court. Whether she wanted it or no, she couldn't hang around King's Landing after Queen Rhaella dismissed her from her service.

Aerys "putting Tywin in his place" could manifest itself in his jibes against Joanna in 272. By talking about how her breasts had changed, he had just told to the whole court that he used to be very intimate with Joanna. This is humiliating for both Tywin and Joanna. Given that Tywin tried to resign a day after that, it's clear that Aerys succeeded in hurting him and "putting him in his place".

There's no need for rape, and the text does not even hint to that. And besides, raping Joanna would be useless if Aerys wanted to put Tywin in his place. Because, Tywin wouldn't know about it unless Aerys bragged about it before him. Which is not the case with his comments on Joanna's breasts in front of the whole court. And I don't think that Tywin despite his ambition would continue to be Hand of the King after such an humiliation.

On A+J=T:

I think it is a red herring (Joanna's visit in 272). Aerys resuming an affair with Joanna during his visit would be "very indiscreet". If Aerys really wanted to continue his affair with Joanna, he would never let the Queen dismiss her and banish her from court. Aerys's obsession with Joanna has only to deal with Tywin not with Joanna (her beauty, intellect or whatever). Hurting and humiliating Tywin was his main focus in chasing after Joanna Lannister

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The text clearly states that Joanna was banished from court. Whether she wanted it or no, she couldn't hang around King's Landing after Queen Rhaella dismissed her from her service.

No it does not. That is stated precisely nowhere.

The Queen we are told did not object to the king having mistresses and the court was full of them. She objected to him corrupting her own personal servants and confidantes. Banishment does not come into it: Joanna was dismissed as a lady-in-waiting, nothing more.

Aerys "putting Tywin in his place" could manifest itself in his jibes against Joanna in 272. By talking about how her breasts had changed, he had just told to the whole court that he used to be very intimate with Joanna. This is humiliating for both Tywin and Joanna. Given that Tywin tried to resign a day after that, it's clear that Aerys succeeded in hurting him and "putting him in his place".

He'd insulted Tywin before and everyone would likely know that Joanna had been Aerys's paramour.

You're saying Aerys's plan to put Tywin in his place was to summon his wife and yell 'saggy tits,' while reminding everyone of an affair everyone likely knew about anyway. That's weak. He'd clearly been insulting at the bedding ceremony and likely groped Joanna there but Tywin did not resign.

There's no need for rape, and the text does not even hint to that. And besides, raping Joanna would be useless if Aerys wanted to put Tywin in his place. Because, Tywin wouldn't know about it unless Aerys bragged about it before him. Which is not the case with his comments on Joanna's breasts in front of the whole court. And I don't think that Tywin despite his ambition would continue to be Hand of the King after such an humiliation.

The text hints there was sex in 272 and strongly suggests it was not consensual. Tywin did try and resign, but it is clear Aerys would not allow him to do so. If that was over the rape Tywin obviously knew about it, so not sure how it would be useless.

On A+J=T:

I think it is a red herring (Joanna's visit in 272). Aerys resuming an affair with Joanna during his visit would be "very indiscreet". If Aerys really wanted to continue his affair with Joanna, he would never let the Queen dismiss her and banish her from court. Aerys's obsession with Joanna has only to deal with Tywin not with Joanna (her beauty, intellect or whatever). Hurting and humiliating Tywin was his main focus in chasing after Joanna Lannister

I agree about A+J=T being incorrect but the stuff about Aerys and Joanna isn't a red herring. GrrM refers to it in the books as well and spends much too much time on it for it to be a red herring.

Once again, please tell me where it says Joanna was banished? She was dismissed from a specific job at court (the Queen did not object to mistresses per se) and then the next line has her leave at once for CR to seldom return. That sounds like her choice.

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Not really. A red herring is a false clue that is intended to be misleading or distracting. The problem here is multi-fold. First, GRRM usually seems to have his red herring stated by someone in-story. No one has explicitly stated the possibility that Tyrion might be the son of Aerys. Second, and a corollary, is that because no one has stated this speculation in-story and the clues are relatively subtle, very few readers will even pick up on the possibility. A red herring does not really act as a red herring if almost no readers pick up on the clues. It is not a distraction if only a very few people are distracted.

Additionally, a red herring should be a distraction from some other theory that is the "real" answer to a mystery. What other mystery does this red herring serve as a possible distraction from?

If these clues are just a dead end--subtle clues meant to be picked up by the most attentive readers--but to come of nothing but a pure distraction--that is not a red herring but rather mere trolling by GRRM. Isn't GRRM above this type of trolling?

Since there is no mystery about Tyrion's parenthood (unlike the mystery about Jon's mother or the murderer of Jon Arryn), we cannot expect anyone to state that Tyrion was fathered by someone else, no more than Barristan did. However, if Tyrion rides a dragon and some people in the story use the circular logic (if he is a rider, he must have Targ blood), I am sure that somebody (maybe Tyrion himself) will think in TWoW that Aerys might be his father.

But I think that will continue until Gerion appears and declares the truth.

As I said million times, the real red herrings are

1. Targ blood is necessary to ride dragons

2. Three heads = three riders

Tyrion's parenthood is only a part of this combined red herrings.

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No it does not. That is stated precisely nowhere.

The Queen we are told did not object to the king having mistresses and the court was full of them. She objected to him corrupting her own personal servants and confidantes. Banishment does not come into it: Joanna was dismissed as a lady-in-waiting, nothing more.

He'd insulted Tywin before and everyone would likely know that Joanna had been Aerys's paramour.

You're saying Aerys's plan to put Tywin in his place was to summon his wife and yell 'saggy tits,' while reminding everyone of an affair everyone likely knew about anyway. That's weak. He'd clearly been insulting at the bedding ceremony and likely groped Joanna there but Tywin did not resign.

The text hints there was sex in 272 and strongly suggests it was not consensual. Tywin did try and resign, but it is clear Aerys would not allow him to do so. If that was over the rape Tywin obviously knew about it, so not sure how it would be useless.

I agree about A+J=T being incorrect but the stuff about Aerys and Joanna isn't a red herring. GrrM refers to it in the books as well and spends much too much time on it for it to be a red herring.

Once again, please tell me where it says Joanna was banished? She was dismissed from a specific job at court (the Queen did not object to mistresses per se) and then the next line has her leave at once for CR to seldom return. That sounds like her choice.

  1. I made a mistake about the "banishment". Joanna was dismissed abruptly from Queen Rhaella's service and left for Casterly Rock, seldom coming back to court. Is it likely that she would be dismissed and yet kept on being a regular fixture at court?
  2. Everybody "might knew" that Joanna used to be Aerys's mistress. It would be a rumor to most of the Westerosi until after Aerys's comments "while in his cups". Was Aerys trying to humiliate Tywin as early as the bedding ceremony? Barristan said to Dany that Aerys "drank too much wine" when he took "unwonted liberties" and made comments, to "Tywin's displeasure" (TWOIAF). They still had good relations during that period and TWOIAF states that it was after the return from Casterly Rock that Aerys and Tywin's relations deteriorated.
  3. I really don't see where the text hints that there was "unconsensual sex" between Aerys and Joanna in 272 AC. I must have missed it. This is what I read:

At the great Anniversary Tourney of 272 AC, held to commemorate Aerys’s tenth year upon the Iron Throne, Joanna Lannister bought her six-year-old twins Jaime and Cersei from Casterly Rock to present before the court. The king (very much in his cups) asked her if giving suck to them had “ruined your breasts, which were so high and proud.” The question greatly amused Lord Tywin’s rivals, who were always pleased to see the Hand slighted or made mock of, but Lady Joanna was humiliated. Tywin Lannister attempted to return his chain of office the next morning, but the king refused to accept his resignation.

Aerys was petty and wanted to humiliate Tywin in front of the court. At least that's what I read. It's not just yelling "saggy tits" but burning Tywin in front of the lickspittles and not accepting his resignation. Kind of like "I own you". Petty.

To conclude, I never stated that Aerys and Joanna's affair was a red herring. In the earlier thread, I stated my position over that (yes, it happened) but I think it stopped when Joanna was dismissed and returned to Casterly Rock. Don't think that Aerys is the father of any of Joanna's children.

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HMM,



while we still don't agree on the banishment thing - I really think you should not longer dare to show up in the presence of the queen if the queen had fired you, and as the wife of the Hand Joanna would have to be expected to show up at balls, tourney, at court, etc. Surely Rhaella would not have decided to shun those events just because Joanna Lannister would be there. The idea that being dismissed by the queen does not have other social repercussions seem to be a little naive on your part.



But that aside, let's try another take on the reason why Rhaella has dismissed Joanna:



We know/can be reasonably sure of that Aerys and Joanna spent their first night together in 259. Afterwards there was either a sort of on/off affair until Aerys ascended the Iron Throne, or a continuous affair. In 262 AC Joanna was for a short time Aerys' official mistress.



The interesting question now is: Why did Rhaella only dismiss Joanna after she had been married to Tywin? Why not during all the time she was sleeping with Aerys before and after his coronation? Surely she would have been aware of the fact that she was Aerys' paramour at one point. Such things are not really kept secret.



We are given the clue that Rhaella/Aerys sort of reiterate the duty vs. desire theme - Aerys following his desires after he is forced to marry his sister, whereas Rhaella and Bonifer do not consummate or continue their relationship. But if that was the case we should assume that Rhaella had Joanna dismissed as soon as possible, not long after the affair had, presumably, ended.



A new view on the whole thing may be that Tywin intervened and asked Queen Rhaella to dismiss Joanna, so that she would have to go back to Casterly Rock (either on his command, or because she could simply no longer live at court).



In this scenario Joanna would be really enamored by Aerys, just Cersei was with Rhaegar, and Tywin would scheme to drive a wedge between these two. During the extended stay at Casterly Rock Tywin would then have gone to some lengths to prevent Joanna to rekindle her affair with Aerys, leading to the first severe cracks in the friendship between Tywin and Aerys.


In the end their could still be a rape - because Aerys lost all true affection/desire for Joanna and perceived her only a means to humiliate Tywin - or whatever they had in 272 was some sort of reconciliation sex after the original royal insult. The fact that Aerys refused to accept Tywin's resignation is also somewhat weird. Why would he do that? If he did really go as far as raping Joanna, and if the resignation is a sign that Tywin knew about that, then it is really strange that Aerys wanted to keep that man in charge of his Realm. However, if Joanna had spent the night before willingly with Aerys that should have put him in a good enough mood to want to keep Tywin around.



This Aerys was clearly not yet as mad as the Aerys of 281 AC who apparently did not really grasp what it meant to name Tywin's son to the Kingsguard.


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@Lord Bloodraven

I hate indented lists.

1. If Aerys and Tywin wanted her to stay I don't see why not. We don't even know the Queen came to dislike her, she just didn't want her ladies being the king's mistresses. Most people at court would not be her ladies-in-waiting so there would be really nothing unusual about staying. It would be the normal thing to do as she was not lady of the rock yet.

2. I think a good many people in the court knew. Remember Joanna was with the king on and off for about 4-5 years. Hard for that to be secret.

3. It is the whole story not just that passage read in isolation. Joanna is clearly Aerys's favourite mistress, who he has had sex with before. He groped her at her wedding and, crucially, said it was a shame the right of first night had been abolished. Her dismissal by the Queen implies he still pursued her after she got married. She stays away. Later he wants her to come to court, but she seldom does. Does he really not want to have sex with her? In the passage in question Tywin resigns the following morning, implying that the real reason for the resignation occurred after the insult. And yes Aerys was insulting, but arguably it was nothing he had not done before. Would Tywin really resign over just that, given he didn't wrt the bedding incident and the shit gold incident? If Aerys really raped her that explains Tywin's attitude to Tyrion in the novels and puts his comment about, 'not being able to prove you are not mine,' in a new light. In GoT Tyrion said jokingly that Tywin was not sure Tyrion was his.

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HMM,

while we still don't agree on the banishment thing - I really think you should not longer dare to show up in the presence of the queen if the queen had fired you, and as the wife of the Hand Joanna would have to be expected to show up at balls, tourney, at court, etc. Surely Rhaella would not have decided to shun those events just because Joanna Lannister would be there. The idea that being dismissed by the queen does not have other social repercussions seem to be a little naive on your part.

I haven't read the rest of this but what is naïve is to assume the Queen gets to banish the king's mistresses and his noble's wives just in virtue of not wanting them as ladies-in-waiting. Does she get to control what women the king is allowed to see in your view? It is rather ludicrous if she does. Aerys with his huge number of women and mistresses and his balls was obviously in charge of the social scene too, not the Queen.

Moreover, it is actually nowhere said the Queen came to dislike Joanna, although she might have done. It is speculation on your part. All that we know is that she objected to having a lady-in-waiting as the king's whore/mistress while we are told she was, at the same time, generally indulgent of Aerys's having lots of extra-marital affairs. All we know is that it was a not under my nose kind of thing.

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But that aside, let's try another take on the reason why Rhaella has dismissed Joanna:

We know/can be reasonably sure of that Aerys and Joanna spent their first night together in 259. Afterwards there was either a sort of on/off affair until Aerys ascended the Iron Throne, or a continuous affair. In 262 AC Joanna was for a short time Aerys' official mistress.

The interesting question now is: Why did Rhaella only dismiss Joanna after she had been married to Tywin? Why not during all the time she was sleeping with Aerys before and after his coronation? Surely she would have been aware of the fact that she was Aerys' paramour at one point. Such things are not really kept secret.

We are given the clue that Rhaella/Aerys sort of reiterate the duty vs. desire theme - Aerys following his desires after he is forced to marry his sister, whereas Rhaella and Bonifer do not consummate or continue their relationship. But if that was the case we should assume that Rhaella had Joanna dismissed as soon as possible, not long after the affair had, presumably, ended.

Why are you assuming the affair ended. The account of the bedding scene makes it appear Aerys still desired Joanna and thought he'd grope her on her wedding night. He may have still thought she was his given the first night comment. Her dismissal from the Queen's service implies the king was still pursuing her, as you get dismissed for turning into the king's whore.

A new view on the whole thing may be that Tywin intervened and asked Queen Rhaella to dismiss Joanna, so that she would have to go back to Casterly Rock (either on his command, or because she could simply no longer live at court).

In this scenario Joanna would be really enamored by Aerys, just Cersei was with Rhaegar, and Tywin would scheme to drive a wedge between these two. During the extended stay at Casterly Rock Tywin would then have gone to some lengths to prevent Joanna to rekindle her affair with Aerys, leading to the first severe cracks in the friendship between Tywin and Aerys.

In the end their could still be a rape - because Aerys lost all true affection/desire for Joanna and perceived her only a means to humiliate Tywin - or whatever they had in 272 was some sort of reconciliation sex after the original royal insult. The fact that Aerys refused to accept Tywin's resignation is also somewhat weird. Why would he do that? If he did really go as far as raping Joanna, and if the resignation is a sign that Tywin knew about that, then it is really strange that Aerys wanted to keep that man in charge of his Realm. However, if Joanna had spent the night before willingly with Aerys that should have put him in a good enough mood to want to keep Tywin around.

This Aerys was clearly not yet as mad as the Aerys of 281 AC who apparently did not really grasp what it meant to name Tywin's son to the Kingsguard.

Joanna really being enamoured with Aerys fits poorly with her flight from the capital, the fact she never went there, her humiliation when Aerys reminded her of the affair, Tywin's love for her and the purported affection she had for him. Aerys clearly had lots of other women as well besides her, and losing her maidenhead to him would have made her think she wrecked her marriage prospects, so hard to see why she was so keen to keep going with him. In short, very little fits.

We know Aerys kept Tywin as hand even when he disliked him and even feared him, because we're told that straight up. No mystery about it. Indeed the text suggests that Aerys's refusal of Tywin's request to resign could be viewed as somewhat odd.

I am perplexed as to why you are so set on this being reconciliation sex. Like, what indicates that?

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This is the purest speculation, but it struck me that Aerys might have summoned Joanna / Cersei / Jaime to court with the purpose of trying to father a child on Joanna, with or without her consent, given his annoyance at her giving birth to 'golden twins' and his own fertility problems. When the child was born, if he recognised it this would be the ultimate humiliation for Tywin. (obviously things did not go to plan here - perhaps Tyrion's birth led to Aerys sudden conversion to faithful husband)



Perhaps there was even blood magic involved; also struck me that the description by the Maester of Tyrion being rumoured to have been born with a tail reminded me of Mirri Maz Duur's description of Dany's child/blood sacrifice.


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That's an interesting point actually. I hadn't thought of that but it would fit what we know of Aerys's mindset at the time. It would be an additional motivation.


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I'd just like to point out that Aerys commenting on Joanna's breasts, while in poor taste and indicating current inappropriate interest, didn't per se insinuate a previous affair. Everybody at the bedding would have seen both Tywin and Joanna starkers, after all.

Stallion that Mounts Texas:

1. Moon tea clearly doesn't work 100%. Most notably, it didn't work for Cersei on the one occasion when she got pregnant with Robert's child and Jaime had to find a woman "to cleanse her". Like mother, like daughter? Perhaps.

Alternatively, Joanna may have believed that she was already pregnant from Tywin during her encounter with Aerys, but it was just an irregularity of her cycle.

3. Secret door to the chambers of the Hand and other secret passages that were known only to Targaryens. It doesn't matter how careful Tywin was or how many people were around the court, Aerys always could escape public scrutiny and keep his trysts secret, if he so chose. If Joana had been accosted against her will, she might have been afraid to make a scene and endanger her family. That the twins were in KL at the time may have been particularly significant re: her response.

8. Why would Tyrion's dwarfism affect the color of his hair and eyes? And we now have a possible source for his black hair and eye - Black Betha Blackwood.

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I'd just like to point out that Aerys commenting on Joanna's breasts, while in poor taste and indicating current inappropriate interest, didn't per se insinuate a previous affair. Everybody at the bedding would have seen both Tywin and Joanna starkers, after all.

Good point.

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I think that there's a big chance that Aerys is Tyrion's father. Aerys told to be a handsome guy in his youth and Joanna stayed at Kingslanding for years. Blablabla we read a lot of things about this. But also the fact that Cersei and Jaime seem to be pure Lannisters, Tyrion doesn't seem to be one. Mismatched eyes, different hair colours, dwarf AND sometimes we could read that he was born with a tale which was cut off, and as we know there were Targaryen babies who was born with wings and tails and scales like a terrible human-dragon-like something and all of them died after born. So Tyrion can be the only one of them who survived.


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I'd just like to point out that Aerys commenting on Joanna's breasts, while in poor taste and indicating current inappropriate interest, didn't per se insinuate a previous affair. Everybody at the bedding would have seen both Tywin and Joanna starkers, after all.

We know there was a prior affair anyway though, given Pycelle's silly denials, and people's reactions to the breast comment make it pretty clear that was what Aerys was referring to.

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Given Joanna did have a child in 273 which she clearly thought was Tywin's isn't that reason enough to conclude she might well have refrained from moon tea in 272 whatever happened? And I don't think A+J=T but given moon tea is not 100% effective Tywin could never know if Tyrion's birth was about nine months or less from the day Aerys raped his wife.

Pycelle dismisses in fanboyish terms the claim Joanna lost her maidenhead to Aerys on the night of Jaehearys's coronation. I'm pretty sure we're meant to conclude from that that she did indeed lose her maidenhead. If something scurrilious is denied outright with poor reasoning it is a big red alert that it is actually true. The reason Aerys continued to be interested in Joanna long after he ought to have lost interest is because he had some sort of special attraction to her, as Barristan flags up. She's not just any mistress, she's the woman Aerys comes to wish, on some level, he married. Aerys did use the affair to spite Tywin: in 272 Tywin and Joanna are very upset when Aerys implies he's seen Joanna's breasts and that makes sense as a reminder of the prior affair and the fact Tywin took Aerys's leavings. We are told ladies-in-waiting were dismissed when Aerys was in danger of 'turning them into whores,' so it is a sign Aerys was still pursuing Joanna after her marriage. She appeared to want to get away from him and left the capital to seldom return.

Why the fuck do you think no one would know about this if it happened? It clearly did not escape Tywin: he wanted to resign the next day. Isn't Tywin kind of making it obvious to everyone there that something happened. People won't necessarily be clear she was raped, but they'll probably suspect Aerys and Joanna spent the night together. Pycelle furiously denies rumours Joanna was ever Aerys's mistress, despite it being pretty obvious she was, so omitting this bit of humiliation for his hero is not unlikely.

Nah, utter failure to read the clues properly. The Queen knows there is shit all she can do if Aerys wants loads of mistresses. We are actually told she is indulgent towards his lovers and mistresses. She just won't let him make her ladies, her intimate servants and confidantes, his mistresses. It is not about disposing of rivals, it is an insistence she's not going to be demeaned by the king sleeping with members of her own household. So the fact Joanna was dismissed after the marriage strongly suggests Aerys was still pursuing her then. Her flight from the capital afterwards suggests she was not happy about that. If she really wanted to be his mistress she could have stayed, and she also took herself away from her new husband when she wasn't even needed as lady of Casterly Rock (as Tytos was still alive).

It is not thin at all.

1. I think I ceded that moot tea is not 100% effective, as no contraceptive is, but I stand by my assertion that its likely over 90% effective. And she would likely use it of the course of several days for certainty. Using the one of example of Cersei to advance this particular claim just does not stand. Women know when they are pregnant, especially women who have experienced it before. Joanna would have started regimen of moon tea after any encounter with Aerys, unless she knew she was already pregnant, plain and simple.

2. You have nothing but rumors, and nothing concrete, plain and simple. Just because Pycelle dismissed it, it must be true. You are trying to pigeonhole an unlikely event into a tiny window of time.

3. Aerys saw Joanna’s breast at the bedding (hello!!). Everyone present saw them. You do know what the bedding is?

4. First of all, don’t curse me, it shows bad form and limited intelligence. Tywin tried to resign the next day because his beloved wife was humiliated in front of the entire court, beyond the pale. I don’t see what is so hard about that.

This supposed secret encounter is just too unlikely given all the eyes and ears. The King’s Guard is with the King at all times. Why would she willing be summoned by Aerys and in private? After such humiliation? It makes no sense. In present day of the books, the secrets of the Red Keep have been lost to all by Varys.

5. You have a failure to recognize a red herring when you see one. Joanna was dismissed from the Queen’s service due to Aerys’ liberties, and she left due to her husband’s fury and humiliation, in addition to her own.

You can continue to twist and pigeon all you like, it just does not fly.

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1. I think I ceded that moot tea is not 100% effective, as no contraceptive is, but I stand by my assertion that its likely over 90% effective. And she would likely use it of the course of several days for certainty. Using the one of example of Cersei to advance this particular claim just does not stand. Women know when they are pregnant, especially women who have experienced it before. Joanna would have started regimen of moon tea after any encounter with Aerys, unless she knew she was already pregnant, plain and simple.

And there is a good chance she thought she was already pregnant, given Tyrion was born in 273, so, no moon tea. From Tywin's point of view, there is always the chance Joanna was wrong to think she was already pregnant (does happen). Tyrion's abnormalities made him suspect this was the case. And as you concede, moon tea is not 100% effective anyway.

2. You have nothing but rumors, and nothing concrete, plain and simple. Just because Pycelle dismissed it, it must be true. You are trying to pigeonhole an unlikely event into a tiny window of time.

Read the page in question and tell me you don't think Joanna was really Aerys's mistress from 259 to somewhere around 264. Pycelle's reason is Tywin would never accept another man's leavings; this is they guy who beds Shae. Pycelle is clearly very wrong.

I don't know what the tiny window of time you are referring to here is.

3. Aerys saw Joanna’s breast at the bedding (hello!!). Everyone present saw them. You do know what the bedding is?

But so what. Why is Tywin so insulted and Joanna so humiliated to be reminded they were seen naked at their bedding if that happens to everyone. And why was this enough to resign. That makes no sense. It is only humiliating because Aerys had Joanna first (something Pycelle admits is deeply embarrassing to Tywin). Joanna is clearly embarrassed as well.

4. First of all, don’t curse me, it shows bad form and limited intelligence. Tywin tried to resign the next day because his beloved wife was humiliated in front of the entire court, beyond the pale. I don’t see what is so hard about that.

I'll do what I want buster.

You theory makes no sense, because according to you all Aerys did was remind everyone he'd seen Tywin and Joanna naked at their bedding. Big deal that happens to everyone. This is Aerys's way of putting Tywin in his place is it, and causes him to resign: 'I saw you naked once.' That's stupid.

This supposed secret encounter is just too unlikely given all the eyes and ears. The King’s Guard is with the King at all times. Why would she willing be summoned by Aerys and in private? After such humiliation? It makes no sense. In present day of the books, the secrets of the Red Keep have been lost to all by Varys.

Why are you so fucking convinced it is totally secret? Tywin publicly offered to resign over it, so some people are likely to figure out what happened. I don't think she was willing either. Why can't he do the business with some KG in attendance? They guard him, they don't judge according to the White Bull.

5. You have a failure to recognize a red herring when you see one. Joanna was dismissed from the Queen’s service due to Aerys’ liberties, and she left due to her husband’s fury and humiliation, in addition to her own.

She wasn't dismissed because of the bedding actually, it was a little while after. We are told ladies get dismissed for being turned into whores, not just for being groped at a bedding (where that thing kind of can happen).

The stuff about Aerys and Joanna is clearly not a red herring either. I don't think it is meant to show Tyrion is Aerys's son but there will be some explanation for it. Do you know what that is?

You can continue to twist and pigeon all you like, it just does not fly.

You're not exactly slaying counterarguments here and you seem rather confused.

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I'd just like to point out that Aerys commenting on Joanna's breasts, while in poor taste and indicating current inappropriate interest, didn't per se insinuate a previous affair. Everybody at the bedding would have seen both Tywin and Joanna starkers, after all.

Stallion that Mounts Texas:

1. Moon tea clearly doesn't work 100%. Most notably, it didn't work for Cersei on the one occasion when she got pregnant with Robert's child and Jaime had to find a woman "to cleanse her". Like mother, like daughter? Perhaps.

Alternatively, Joanna may have believed that she was already pregnant from Tywin during her encounter with Aerys, but it was just an irregularity of her cycle.

3. Secret door to the chambers of the Hand and other secret passages that were known only to Targaryens. It doesn't matter how careful Tywin was or how many people were around the court, Aerys always could escape public scrutiny and keep his trysts secret, if he so chose. If Joana had been accosted against her will, she might have been afraid to make a scene and endanger her family. That the twins were in KL at the time may have been particularly significant re: her response.

8. Why would Tyrion's dwarfism affect the color of his hair and eyes? And we now have a possible source for his black hair and eye - Black Betha Blackwood.

1. Again, using one remote instance in the book to try and prove this particular theory does not follow. You are putting a lot of work in to keep it alive. Joanna had a secret encounter with Aerys, a daily regimen of moon tea did not work, Joanna misdiagnosed her pregnancy, etc,. Its just too big a leap, at best.

2. Maegor had the secret passages commissioned and killed all who knew. We don’t know who he told. Present day, only Varys knows of the Red Keeps secrets. You are again, putting a lot of work in to keep this thing alive. Aerys knew of the secret passages, Joanna was alone in her chambers, she did not scream out at her attacker.

Joanna Lannister is described as having ruled Tywin Lannister at home, not the type of woman to keep silent, I think.

3. Why would his condition cause stubby legs and a jutting forehead? Because thats what deformity does.

As to Betha Blackwood: Her lineage was not reflected in Jaehaeyrs II, Aerys, Rhaella, Rhaegar, Viserys, or Daenerys, but it would simply show up in Tyrion? Sorry, not buying it.

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