[TWOIAF Spoilers] Aerys and Joanna II

[Suzanna Stormborn]

What I was suggesting that the three headed dragon is Jon and his other two heads are wolf/dragon, ice/fire, Stark/Targaryen (as identities, not people).

I guess I see what you mean. But I have no idea how you can say that Jon is the only confirmed 'head of the dragon' when he has never even seen a dragon. And Dany is the one who hatched them, raised them and is now flying on one. This also seems like a no-brainer to me, thus far, she is the only confirmed 'head of the dragon'.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I guess I see what you mean. But I have no idea how you can say that Jon is the only confirmed 'head of the dragon' when he has never even seen a dragon. And Dany is the one who hatched them, raised them and is now flying on one. This also seems like a no-brainer to me, thus far, she is the only confirmed 'head of the dragon'.

This theory has been a pet theory of AntZ for a long time--even from when he went by Paper Waver. For a time, I think it had more of a following, but between the SSM with GRRM saying the third head is not necessarily a Targaryen (which to me, confirms that the three heads are three different people), and I think the theory merely seeming to lose force in people's minds as they have thought about it more, he is pretty much the only person I see that continues to push it (and he will push in pretty much any thread that talks about the identity of the three heads).

Now maybe AntZ is the genius and the rest of us are too "literal minded" in assuming the three heads will be three different people. But I have found that there is nothing you can say to move him off of his position (we have traded on this issue before), and nothing he can say is likely to move you off of your position (as he really does not have the type of evidence that I suspect you would find compelling). While I respect his theory as a possibility, debating it really just goes down a tangent that accomplishes nothing. So if you want to debate the evidence for who are the three heads and what it means to be one of the three heads, debating AntZ will not advance the debate.

[RumHam]

This theory has been a pet theory of AntZ for a long time--even from when he went by Paper Waver.

Huh, I had no idea they were the same person until now.

[Mithras]

This theory has been a pet theory of AntZ for a long time--even from when he went by Paper Waver. For a time, I think it had more of a following, but between the SSM with GRRM saying the third head is not necessarily a Targaryen (which to me, confirms that the three heads are three different people), and I think the theory merely seeming to lose force in people's minds as they have thought about it more, he is pretty much the only person I see that continues to push it (and he will push in pretty much any thread that talks about the identity of the three heads).

Now maybe AntZ is the genius and the rest of us are too "literal minded" in assuming the three heads will be three different people. But I have found that there is nothing you can say to move him off of his position (we have traded on this issue before), and nothing he can say is likely to move you off of your position (as he really does not have the type of evidence that I suspect you would find compelling). While I respect his theory as a possibility, debating it really just goes down a tangent that accomplishes nothing. So if you want to debate the evidence for who are the three heads and what it means to be one of the three heads, debating AntZ will not advance the debate.

Just to make it clear; this theory does not belong to me. The thread is here.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

This theory has been a pet theory of AntZ for a long time--even from when he went by Paper Waver. For a time, I think it had more of a following, but between the SSM with GRRM saying the third head is not necessarily a Targaryen (which to me, confirms that the three heads are three different people), and I think the theory merely seeming to lose force in people's minds as they have thought about it more, he is pretty much the only person I see that continues to push it (and he will push in pretty much any thread that talks about the identity of the three heads).

Now maybe AntZ is the genius and the rest of us are too "literal minded" in assuming the three heads will be three different people. But I have found that there is nothing you can say to move him off of his position (we have traded on this issue before), and nothing he can say is likely to move you off of your position (as he really does not have the type of evidence that I suspect you would find compelling). While I respect his theory as a possibility, debating it really just goes down a tangent that accomplishes nothing. So if you want to debate the evidence for who are the three heads and what it means to be one of the three heads, debating AntZ will not advance the debate.

Huh, I had no idea they were the same person until now.

Just to make it clear; this theory does not belong to me. The thread is here.

Right, thanks for clarifying, :)

Yeah it makes no sense to me, as Dany is the one who is hatching, riding and taming dragons. She is the first (and only) head so far, no amount of 'hidden signs' will change that. And no amount of Jon worship will change it either. This makes as much sense as me saying, 'Dany is the only Direwolf Warg' in the books, just a statement that makes no sense.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Huh, I had no idea they were the same person until now.

I thought it was common knowledge (for those who have been around long enough).

And while AntZ may not have originated the theory--he is one of the only active posters I have seen that continues to push the theory.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Anyway...Tyrion is definitely the bastard son of Aerys Targaryen. Not a 'secret' like Jon, or someone to supplant the Targs with like fAegon. Just a regular Targaryen bastard like the hundreds before him. His mother slept with the king in 272, she probably slept with Tywin near the same time (after all they were man and wife). So Tywin was never 100% certain who the father was, which would explain him not killing Tyrion.

Also, as a side note, I think we can all see from WOIAF that Tywin was taking a massive amount of shit from Aerys, like non-stop smack-talk, berating, lies, hitting on your wife in front of everyone, not listening to any advice from Tywin, etc. etc. And all the while, Tywin is just sitting there silently doing his job and ruling the country, this is a direct parallel to what happened with Joanna. Tywin had to 'take the shit he was handed' from Aerys, including raising his dwarf bastard.

[Alia of the knife]

George's phrasing is that the third head of the dragon would not necessarily have to be Targaryen. If Tyrion was the son of Aerys and Joanna he would be a Hill until a king/queen legitimized him.

And Jon is also a Snow, not a Stark or Targaryen. Perhaps not truly because his mother and father were married, but he was raised a Snow and is not suddenly going by the name Targaryen when he learns who he actually is.

True or alleged bastardy sticks. This is proved by the Great Bastards who never get rid of the their bastard past despite the fact that Aegon legitimized them, which should mean that it is Daemon Targaryen, Aegor Targaryen, Brynden Targaryen. Even while Bloodraven serves as Aerys' Hand, no one ever refers to him as Brynden Targaryen.

The quote also does not specify the whole dragon blood thing. If Shireen or Stannis become dragonriders should be then deduce that 'every Baratheon could do it' or that this was 'because of their Baratheon blood'. No it would be because they had Targaryen blood. Whether they have a different house name does not matter.

As to Aerys/Joanna:

Sure, there could have been an obsession. But this assumption clearly seems to be at odds with Aerys' changeable nature. The whole point of his personality is that he has weird notion after notion, just as he has mistress after mistress. And although it's clear that Joanna was a somewhat more special case from what Barristan mentions, it is by no means clear if she was anything more than a means for Aerys to humiliate or compete with Tywin - ha, ha, your wife loves (or loved) me more than you.

Aerys' relationships to women were much more instable that his lasting relationships to men (i.e. Tywin, Steffon).

Okay thanks,

Those are good points and sound consistent with Aerys inconsistencies.

I also feel that unless Tywin was more blind in his youth, he wouldn't have married Joanna given his treatment and hypocrisy with his father's mistress.

He is also pushing Tyrion to quickly impregnate Sansa for a Lannister claim on Winterfell and would he do that if there was any doubt about his beimg his Tyrions father?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

He is also pushing Tyrion to quickly impregnate Sansa for a Lannister claim on Winterfell and would he do that if there was any doubt about his beimg his Tyrions father.

As far as the world knows (before Tywin's death) Tyrion is his son. Even if Twyin had doubts, he didn't think they would ever come to light or be proven as Aerys and Joanna are both dead long before.

[chrisdaw]

GRRM well established Tywin's deep feelings for Joanna, he needs not have been blind, he just loved her.

[Chaircat Meow]

If Tywin doubted Tyrion was his son he would not want him to inherit the Rock, under any circumstances. However, that doesn't mean he would care in the same way about Tyrion's son by Sansa getting Winterfell. Tywin might have thought he even being fair to Tyrion. Tyrion might be his son after all, and at least his children would get something, just not the Rock.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

If Tywin doubted Tyrion was his son he would not want him to inherit the Rock, under any circumstances.

Which is exactly what happened in the books, thank you.

[mezmerised]

Why is it now almost considered a fact that Joanna and Aerys had an affair before her wedding?

Just because Pycelle's denials of the rumours doesn't amount to much more than Tywin-fanboyism doesn't mean we now have to believe the opposite was actually true.

When we first hear about Aerys/Joanna from Barristan after Dany asked him specifically if her parents ever had other love interests he tells her that Aerys lusted after Tywin Lannister's cousin/wife and took liberties at their wedding.

This is Ser Barristan speaking here who always tries to give Dany her family history in the most rosy-coloured way imaginable. If there was anything consensual going on between the two wouldn't Barristan have gone for a nicer way to describe them? Like 'they were smitten with each other, a brief thing, blablabla' similar to what he said about Rhaella and Bonifer Hasty?

As a KG he should have known about their affair if it actually happened. In fact he should be a lot more aware of everything the royal family was up to in private than your average court gossiper who can mainly comment on interactions he oberves during feasts, balls or in other public moments. Margaery merely interacted with some men in her entourage and Cersei used it as a starting point to create doubts about her having affairs. OTOH Cersei and Jaime actually had an affair and for 10+ years there were no rumours or gossip about them.

[Chaircat Meow]

Principally because of the way Pycelle denies the rumours. Most of us just took it as an obvious way of signalling to the reader that the rumours were all true.

That Barry always describes Aerys and Joanna in a kind of ominous way I take to be a sign that there was something dark about the relationship.

[mezmerised]

And what do you make of Barristan's comments then? Is he just incredibly oblivious or is he aware of the affair but doesn't want Dany to know about it?

ETA: And what does Joanna gain from an affair? She knows Aerys has to marry his sister so she can't have any dreams/ambitions to become Queen. Instead by becoming a semi-official mistress she'd ruin her own marriage prospects and basically endangers her future.

[Chaircat Meow]

And what do you make of Barristan's comments then? Is he just incredibly oblivious or is he aware of the affair but doesn't want Dany to know about it?

He might think it happened but be unwilling to transmit rumours, however plausible, so just relates what he actually saw, or what was very public. Or he might know more ...

ETA: And what does Joanna gain from an affair? She knows Aerys has to marry his sister so she can't have any dreams/ambitions to become Queen. Instead by becoming a semi-official mistress she'd ruin her own marriage prospects and basically endangers her future.

Well not much. Why I speculated she wanted out.

[Maia]

As a KG he should have known about their affair if it actually happened. In fact he should be a lot more aware of everything the royal family was up to in private than your average court gossiper who can mainly comment on interactions he oberves during feasts, balls or in other public moments.

Selmy only became a KG after the War of the Ninepenny Kings, so he wouldn't have been there for the early part of the alleged relationship, like Aerys deflowering Joanna on the night of his father's coronation. And he obviously didn't want to tell Dany the full truth about what he did know. She'd have had to dig for it, and, well, Drogon happened.

But given what we have learned, Selmy's ruminations about young girls going for fire over mud are very apropos re: Aerys and Tywin, no? Only, Joanna didn't remain a young girl, she matured and her preferences changed, maybe.

What I'd really like to know is how Doran's mother fit into all of this. Her being a lady-in-waiting to Rhaella is a bit strange, because she had been a heir to Dorne and mother of a 9-year-old son in 259, when Joanna first came to court. And she had to remain for some time after that, for Joanna and her to become such good friends. Was she Joanna's mentor, as a liberated Dornish woman, I wonder?

[mezmerised]

He might think it happened but be unwilling to transmit rumours, however plausible, so just relates what he actually saw, or what was very public. Or he might know more ...

Well not much. Why I speculated she wanted out.

The thing is the damage would have already been done.

She'd have maneuvered herself into a Lysa Tully position where she could feel lucky to even be considered by a guy old enough to be her grandfather (and only because Jon Arryn was in need of Tully swords).

And I just don't get the people who argue that Joanna deciding to have sex with Aerys turns her into a power player. The concept of intelligent mistress who rules as the secret power behind the throne doesn't really seem to happen in Westeros. The only women who can choose who they have sex with without repercussions are women who already have power in their own right like Rhaenyra, Dany post-dragons, possibly Arianne. Everyone else who tries it seems to lose power instead of gaining some.

Maybe I see Joanna in a too positive light but I really liked her from the little bits we got about her in the previous books. She seemed intelligent and capable, definitely more a Cat than a Lysa. I just find it hard to reconcile that with whatever we are supposed to take from the world book (foolish, young girl who made the mistake of falling in love with Aerys and had to be saved by Tywin as her white knight in shining armour or somewhat foolish, young girl who tried to gain political power as Aerys' mistress then realized it didn't work the way she imagined and turned to Tywin instead?)

And maybe I'm over-interpreting the Pycelle bits but I think while GRRM definitely wants us to feel wary about everything Pycelle says that doesn't mean there can't be quite a bit of truth in his admittedly biased reports to Yandel. Kind of like GRRM is hiding actual bits of truth in reports that he knows we will consider as very biased and probably untrue (personally I always found it hilarious whenever Pycelle popped up in the book :) ).

[Chaircat Meow]

But given what we have learned, Selmy's ruminations about young girls going for fire over mud are very apropos re: Aerys and Tywin, no? Only, Joanna didn't remain a young girl, she matured and her preferences changed, maybe.

That's a possibility. However, would young Tywin really qualify as 'mud?' Quentyn was plain looking and lacking in experience and self confidence. Daario was handsome, a ruthless commander and charismatic (to Dany, anyway). Tywin matches the Daario qualities better than the Quentyn ones in some respects. He's a cold fish personally of course, but I'm not sure that's enough for mud.

[Chaircat Meow]

Maybe I see Joanna in a too positive light but I really liked her from the little bits we got about her in the previous books. She seemed intelligent and capable, definitely more a Cat than a Lysa. I just find it hard to reconcile that with whatever we are supposed to take from the world book (foolish, young girl who made the mistake of falling in love with Aerys and had to be saved by Tywin as her white knight in shining armour or somewhat foolish, young girl who tried to gain political power as Aerys' mistress then realized it didn't work the way she imagined and turned to Tywin instead?)

I'm pretty sure Joanna did not have a Lysa Tully personality. She can still be intelligent and capable, she just made a mistake when younger.

And maybe I'm over-interpreting the Pycelle bits but I think while GRRM definitely wants us to feel wary about everything Pycelle says that doesn't mean there can't be quite a bit of truth in his admittedly biased reports to Yandel. Kind of like GRRM is hiding actual bits of truth in reports that he knows we will consider as very biased and probably untrue (personally I always found it hilarious whenever Pycelle popped up in the book :) ).

IMO it is more or less pointless to suppose systematic bias in Yandell's account because of Pycelle's letters. I can't see what the point of that would be, and we know from other sources that a lot of Yandell's account is correct anyway. I think the one obvious piece of Pycelle bias is the way he dismisses rumours of the affair. It is obviously stupid and then we hear she gets the sack from her job, and that that happens to people who are the king's mistresses. In addition, something other than the bedding fiasco had to happen between Joanna and Aerys for Barristan to keep bringing it up. Her being his mistress makes sense of that.