[TWOIAF Spoilers] Aerys and Joanna II

[mezmerised]

Selmy only became a KG after the War of the Ninepenny Kings, so he wouldn't have been there for the early part of the alleged relationship, like Aerys deflowering Joanna on the night of his father's coronation. And he obviously didn't want to tell Dany the full truth about what he did know. She'd have had to dig for it, and, well, Drogon happened.

But given what we have learned, Selmy's ruminations about young girls going for fire over mud are very apropos re: Aerys and Tywin, no? Only, Joanna didn't remain a young girl, she matured and her preferences changed, maybe.

What I'd really like to know is how Doran's mother fit into all of this. Her being a lady-in-waiting to Rhaella is a bit strange, because she had been a heir to Dorne and mother of a 9-year-old son in 259, when Joanna first came to court. And she had to remain for some time after that, for Joanna and her to become such good friends. Was she Joanna's mentor, as a liberated Dornish woman, I wonder?

Oh, ok I'm notoriously bad with timelines. Btw do we know if Joanna's parents were still alive in 259/263?

I can't really agree with the Tywin(mud) vs Aerys(fire) comparison. But I think Jaime's quote about Cersei being all wildfire whereas Tywin was as relentless and implacable as a glacier still works quite well if you replace Cersei with Aerys. Now we just have to find out whether young Joanna preferred glaciers or wildfire :)

I think what the Princess of Dorne made of all this is a really good question. I already wondered about her as well. But so far she remains a riddle, wrapped up in an enigma...

The only thing we know for sure is that she didn't shun Joanna after she was 'dismissed' by the Queen (IMO Rhaella wasn't angry with her either but rather looked out for her but that's all a matter of interpretation). Instead as late as 73 she still wanted to create very close ties with House Lannister by possibly marrying two of her children to the twins. And also that Joanna and her were the driving forces behind those marriage proposals.

[Alia of the knife]

~

[Chaircat Meow]

But what if he genuinely didn't know whether Tyrion was his.

[Alia of the knife]

My take is that Tyrion is reviled by Tywin not only for being a dwarf,(this was a time when such children were locked away for shame), but because both he and Cersei blame him for Joannas death.

Given that Tywin didn't bat an eye over the deaths of Rhaegars children, if he thought Tyrion was Aerys son by rape, or otherwise, he would have either killed him, or gave him away.

And I think Selmy was in the loop on Aerys and Rhaella, knowing they didn't love one another, but interested elsewhere and told Dany so.

He told her they married for duty and not love. He knew Aerys excesses and cruelty, but he also knew the KG didn't make judgements either.

And the sad apparition of Joanna puts me more in mind of sweet Myrcella and always made me think that she was not happy about the state of affairs for her children because of Tywins blind ambition.

My perception anyway.

[Alia of the knife]

"

[Rhaechyll Targaryen]

What if Joanna asked Tywin to not kill the child?

[mezmerised]

I'm pretty sure Joanna did not have a Lysa Tully personality. She can still be intelligent and capable, she just made a mistake when younger.

IMO it is more or less pointless to suppose systematic bias in Yandell's account because of Pycelle's letters. I can't see what the point of that would be, and we know from other sources that a lot of Yandell's account is correct anyway. I think the one obvious piece of Pycelle bias is the way he dismisses rumours of the affair. It is obviously stupid and then we hear she gets the sack from her job, and that that happens to people who are the king's mistresses. In addition, something other than the bedding fiasco had to happen between Joanna and Aerys for Barristan to keep bringing it up. Her being his mistress makes sense of that.

I didn't mean to imply that Joanna now comes across like Lysa, but rather that if the affair is true it now looks like she made some of Lysa's mistakes and that I wouldn't have suspected that from what we previously knew of her. Not ruining their prospects for a good marriage match is literally the one task young highborn girls have, so fucking it up because they fell in love with the wrong guy (because he is too lowborn or unavailable) makes them look at the very least a bit foolish IMO.

And according to Jaime's recollections even as young girls the Tully sisters were quite different. Lysa seemed more timid and giggly while Cat seemed to have a stronger, more interesting personality already. I just assumed Joanna would have been more like Cat (not a complete copy of her, just in general!).

My biggest take-away from Yandel and Pycelle in that chapter is that both come across like guys who don't spend an awful lot of time thinking about the roles women played in the shaping of Westerosi history. They manage to go on about Tywin and Aerys and Aerys and Tywin without ever acknowledging Joanna as a person with agency and motivations of her own and Queen Rhaella gets one sentence where she dismisses her ladies in waiting who she doesn't want to get turned into whores but we also don't hear anything about her reasoning behind it (is she angry that her close confidents would sleep with her husband or does she want to save them from his unwanted advances?).

[Alia of the knife]

But what if he genuinely didn't know whether Tyrion was his.

That is a possibility, but Tywin was sensitive to ANY question of his pride due to his own "daddy issues," and again, this was a time when such children were sent away, locked away, or exposed, but Tywin, (of all people), did keep and acknowledge him as his own.

(And I'm no Lannister fan).

[UnmaskedLurker]

That is a possibility, but Tywin was sensitive to ANY question of his pride due to his own "daddy issues," and again, this was a time when such children were sent away, locked away, or exposed, but Tywin, (of all people), did keep and acknowledge him as his own.

(And I'm no Lannister fan).

He might have thought that any overt actions would serve to validate people's suspicions so his pride limited how much he was willing to do to Tyrion to minimize the gossip that Tyrion was not Tywin's real son. Consider that if prior to WoIaF, someone theorized that Joanna had an affair with Aerys before the marriage between Tywin and Joanna--Tywin knew about it--and still married her. I think a lot of people would argue "Tywin would never marry such 'spoiled good' as he would see her." But now it is basically accepted almost as fact. The notion that we have been given all the information to conclude why Tywin might have treated Tyrion as "good" as he did (obviously, I use the term "good" loosely here) is folly. The notion that a theory does not work solely because if it were true Tywin would have acted differently, is not that strong a counter-argument given all of the surprising things we have already learned about what Tywin actually will put up with.

[The Sleeper]

I haven't read the entire thread but I'm guessing that the premise is that the timeline makes it possible for Aerys to have been Tyrion's father. That is not entirely the case. For one thing Oberyn mentioned Jaime and Cersei to have been eight or nine when he and Elia visited Casterly Rock and the twins were six when Joanna visited King's Landing. It is within the margin of error but just barely.

There is also the fact that having sex with the Lady of Casterly Rock, consensual or not, even in the Red Keep is no simple proposition, especially when Tywin is the Hand of the King, for close to ten years at that point. Joanna would have a retinue and guards around her at all times and Tywin would certainly have his own men in the Keep.

There are many things that don't add up in the account of the on going relationship of Tywin and Aerys. According to the book Tywin took a lot of shit from Aerys. For any of the other high lords in the realm this would have been far too much to remain the Hand and at least nominally loyal. And yet in later years Tywin felt confident enough to propose Cersei for Rhaegar and even later to bring her to the Red Keep. There is also the fact that the narration comes largely from Pycelle who is hardly unbiased. There is a lot of behind the scenes stuff that we are missing.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I haven't read the entire thread but I'm guessing that the premise is that the timeline makes it possible for Aerys to have been Tyrion's father. That is not entirely the case. For one thing Oberyn mentioned Jaime and Cersei to have been eight or nine when he and Elia visited Casterly Rock and the twins were six when Joanna visited King's Landing. It is within the margin of error but just barely.

There is also the fact that having sex with the Lady of Casterly Rock, consensual or not, even in the Red Keep is no simple proposition, especially when Tywin is the Hand of the King, for close to ten years at that point. Joanna would have a retinue and guards around her at all times and Tywin would certainly have his own men in the Keep.

There are many things that don't add up in the account of the on going relationship of Tywin and Aerys. According to the book Tywin took a lot of shit from Aerys. For any of the other high lords in the realm this would have been far too much to remain the Hand and at least nominally loyal. And yet in later years Tywin felt confident enough to propose Cersei for Rhaegar and even later to bring her to the Red Keep. There is also the fact that the narration comes largely from Pycelle who is hardly unbiased. There is a lot of behind the scenes stuff that we are missing.

What is essentially certainly true from WoIaF is that Joanna came to KL for the 10-year anniversary celebration in 272 AC--the year prior to the birth of Tyrion. That was a public gathering--so no interpretation issue with respect to that fact. So GRRM seems to have intentionally told the readers of a window in which Aerys and Joanna were in the same place and could have been the date of conception of Tyrion. Why does GRRM do this if not to be a clue? Sure it does not "prove" anything--but it is a pointless clue if it does not really mean A+J=T. We also have pretty good confirmation in WoIaF that Aerys and Joanna were lovers prior to when she was dismissed as lady-in-waiting to Rhaella.

As to your objection that Aerys could not get to Joanna at that time--nonsense. If Aerys sends his guards to get Joanna and bring her to his bed, Tywin cannot--and would not--stop this (for the same reason he stays as hand--his life is at risk if he disobeys the king). Tywin obviously thought he had more influence over Aerys than was realistic if Tywin really thought he could get Tywin to marry Rhaegar to Cersei. But I don't see how that has anything to do with A+J=T.

[Alia of the knife]

What if Joanna asked Tywin to not kill the child?

Could be, but I don't think he is a "Ned."

Like I said, I'm no Lannister fan.

If GRRM started out with the intention of Jon and Tyrion being Targ. offspring, thats one thing, but in the interim, its like now, "whoever isn't a secret Targ. please stand up."

There is even a theory that Aerys was the one who raped Ashara, and (f)Aegon is Rhaegars bastard half brother.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Could be, but I don't think he is a "Ned."

Like I said, I'm no Lannister fan.

If GRRM started out with the intention of Jon and Tyrion being Targ. offspring, thats one thing, but in the interim, its like now, "whoever isn't a secret Targ. please stand up."

There is even a theory that Aerys was the one who raped Ashara, and (f)Aegon is Rhaegars bastard half brother.

Assuming A+J=T and assuming R+L=legit J, then there is only one secret Targ (Jon) and one secret Targ bastard (Tyrion). (f)Aegon cannot really be a secret Targ--he is either the return of a known Targ, Aegon (which I doubt) or he is a Blackfyre/Brightflame descendant, which may give him Targ blood, but he would not be a Targ. There are all sorts of Targ bastards and Targ descendants running around Westeros and Essos. But it really should not be surprising that we have two main characters who have Targ parents when we are told that the heroes of the big battle will be three heads of the dragon.

[Alia of the knife]

He might have thought that any overt actions would serve to validate people's suspicions so his pride limited how much he was willing to do to Tyrion to minimize the gossip that Tyrion was not Tywin's real son. Consider that if prior to WoIaF, someone theorized that Joanna had an affair with Aerys before the marriage between Tywin and Joanna--Tywin knew about it--and still married her. I think a lot of people would argue "Tywin would never marry such 'spoiled good' as he would see her." But now it is basically accepted almost as fact. The notion that we have been given all the information to conclude why Tywin might have treated Tyrion as "good" as he did (obviously, I use the term "good" loosely here) is folly. The notion that a theory does not work solely because if it were true Tywin would have acted differently, is not that strong a counter-argument given all of the surprising things we have already learned about what Tywin actually will put up with.

The bolded.

He is willing to put up with it if it serves his own family, or "pride," and certainly the animal symbolism has the duel meanings. A male lion will often go in and decimate the cubs of other lions in order to take over, or in Tywins case, go "castamere" on those who challenge him to prove he is not a joke like his father.

Remember what JonCon was told Tywin would have done to lift the siege at the battle of the bells- killed every living thing.

This is also not a story about "logistics," but of the human heart and the human experience which are anything by logical.

Everything Twyin does is motivated by emotion, and not being perceived as weak, so he never smiled with the exception of Joanna- or until his death-mask.

We are told that his desire to wed Cersei to Rhaegar was a "dirty" little secret between the two of them, so Joanna may not have even known how high Tywin wanted to fly, or how he was willing to use his daughter to do so, hence Joannas sad apparition that Jaime sees.

What you are describing is more the scenario of a bored king, casting off his mistress to his fellow favorite, arranging an advantageous marriage for her as reward for her "services" and that favorite had no issues with taking the kings leavings so long as he was rewarded as well, so he plays along.

My take is that Tywin had his own relationship with Aerys, (they had been good friends), and he meant climb the ladder by his own means and prowess. He apparently did to the point that Aerys was jealous and threatened by him.

The other thing, if Joanna was sleeping with both men, then she couldn't be sure that her children were not Tywins.

In terms of "counter arguements," I'm really not into this to "win" or be "right." I'm here for the discussion and fun, so I don't call out anyone for what they take away from their read, but for the record, trying to hammer a round peg into a square hole because its what you want the story to be isn't really productive.

Other than possibly turning a great work into a soap opera, I could care less if Tyrion is yet another secret Targ., but I would like him better if he is just Tywins son who ended up being more lion than the rest of the pride.

[Ser Creighton]

Well one thing we know about Tywin is he had no problem trying to us his children or his grand children to further his own ambition. Did he also use Joanna is such a way? Was it some sense of guilt that made him raise Tyrion and was it passive aggressive behavior that had him lashing out at Tyrion. He seemed to have treated Tyrion a bit the way Aerys treated him.

An interesting note is that if true, if Tyrion is there child and not Tywins, he finds a rather unique parallel of an inverse nature. Orys Bratheon, the bastard brother of Aegon or rumored to be. The flag about KL, is Half Stag and half lion much like the halves of a yin yang, Orys symbol is one half and Tyrions is the other even as a Targ he is still a Lannister and would be a bastard. Orys was a warrior, Tyrion is a thinker, one big and good looking, the other is Tyrion. One lost hand and one his nose. One has lightest of hair with black flecks and the other Black hair. Both were hands of the king. Both fought the Storm King. Of all the supposed Targs, he would be the only one who could parallel Orys with Dany. Now it's just a guess but Jon, Dany, Aegon, and Tyrion would now draw an inverse of Aegon and his sister and Orys. Not exactly something someone like Rhaegar would of looked for, yet it fits. A girl and 2 boys, Jon the eldest, Dany the middle and Aegon the youngest. I say Aegon the youngest because Tyrion tabbed him at about 15 and Dany is 16 and Jon 17. Pretty sure this would be tough to plan, and so close at time. Rhaegar, Vis and Dany, so close but the order of age is wrong. Rhaenys, Aegon, and Jon, girls to old in this one. But through all the screw ups and crazy you end up with Jon, Dany, Aegon and a bastard Half brother. Food for thought anyway.

[Bael's Bastard]

What I think about Aerys, Joanna, and Tywin: Aerys wanted to marry (and perhaps loved) Joanna, and was forced to marry Rhaella. In this scenario, I think Tywin fully knew about and completely supported Joanna marrying Aerys, similar to how Ned felt about Lyanna marrying Robert. I think Tywin thought Joanna fit to be queen and to have royal children, supported her becoming and perhaps tried to make her queen (perhaps even Summerhall being part of a plot), and perhaps set his sights on making her (their) children royalty after Aerys and Rhaella became king and queen. I don't think he would have been okay with anything continuing between Aerys and Joanna after Tywin married her. But I do think Tywin might have encouraged a relationship between them before Aerys and Rhaella were forced to marry, and perhaps even plotted to clear the way for Aerys to marry her with Summerhall.

[mb2518]

You never thought Tywin, the man who ordered two children to be brutally killed would be the victim did you? He actually considered siding with Aerys in Robert's Rebellion? I think he was just waiting to see if the rebels could win. He didn't want to miss his chance to screw over Aerys once and for all.

[Alia of the knife]

We are told that Aerys offended Tywin when Aerys/Rhaegar turned down the union of the two Houses, telling him that as capable a person Tywin was, he wasn't marrying his son to who was essentially a servant.

My sense is that it is all about Tywin and his ambition.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

My take is that Tyrion is reviled by Tywin not only for being a dwarf,(this was a time when such children were locked away for shame), but because both he and Cersei blame him for Joannas death.

Given that Tywin didn't bat an eye over the deaths of Rhaegars children, if he thought Tyrion was Aerys son by rape, or otherwise, he would have either killed him, or gave him away.

And I think Selmy was in the loop on Aerys and Rhaella, knowing they didn't love one another, but interested elsewhere and told Dany so.

He told her they married for duty and not love. He knew Aerys excesses and cruelty, but he also knew the KG didn't make judgements either.

And the sad apparition of Joanna puts me more in mind of sweet Myrcella and always made me think that she was not happy about the state of affairs for her children because of Tywins blind ambition.

My perception anyway.

You are right on the money. The tidbits added by the world book do not cut into the mountain of evidence against this theory provided by the text of the main books.

I haven't read the entire thread but I'm guessing that the premise is that the timeline makes it possible for Aerys to have been Tyrion's father. That is not entirely the case. For one thing Oberyn mentioned Jaime and Cersei to have been eight or nine when he and Elia visited Casterly Rock and the twins were six when Joanna visited King's Landing. It is within the margin of error but just barely.

There is also the fact that having sex with the Lady of Casterly Rock, consensual or not, even in the Red Keep is no simple proposition, especially when Tywin is the Hand of the King, for close to ten years at that point. Joanna would have a retinue and guards around her at all times and Tywin would certainly have his own men in the Keep.

There are many things that don't add up in the account of the on going relationship of Tywin and Aerys. According to the book Tywin took a lot of shit from Aerys. For any of the other high lords in the realm this would have been far too much to remain the Hand and at least nominally loyal. And yet in later years Tywin felt confident enough to propose Cersei for Rhaegar and even later to bring her to the Red Keep. There is also the fact that the narration comes largely from Pycelle who is hardly unbiased. There is a lot of behind the scenes stuff that we are missing.

Bingo, points I have made time and again. This theory is simply too thin to have any real merit. It all comes down to pigeonholing unrealistic/highly unlikely scenarios into the text to make it seem plausible.

[Mithras]

Lord Tywin seldom spoke of his wife, but Tyrion had heard his uncles talk of the love between them. In those days, his father had been Aerys’s Hand, and many people said that Lord Tywin Lannister ruled the Seven Kingdoms, but Lady Joanna ruled Lord Tywin. “He was not the same man after she died, Imp,” his Uncle Gery told him once. “The best part of him died with her.” Gerion had been the youngest of Lord Tytos Lannister’s four sons, and the uncle Tyrion liked best.

The love between them.