Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

UnmaskedLurker

[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J v. 3

Recommended Posts

To continue the discussion from the end of R+L=J v. 2:








It doesn't actually say that they are "legitimate wives," just that the ceremonies are also performed by the priests. It also say that the ceremonies are "considerable less solemn" than the normal marriage ceremonies. It does say the children are considered legitimate, but come after any children from the main wife (Not all that unlike bastards in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms.)






No, it is not like bastards in at least two respects. First, bastards are not considered legitimate. By definition, to be legitimate, the marriage must be regarded as a marriage, and for the additional marriage to be a marriage--it must be considered some form of polygamy. Second, bastards do not necessarily come right after their siblings. Uncles, for example, might be regarded as inheriting before bastards. So again, this treatment seems to be put them above the typical bastard--because they are not bastards--they are legitimate--because their parents were married--even though polygamously.




Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To continue the discussion from the end of R+L=J v. 2:

No, it is not like bastards in at least two respects. First, bastards are not considered legitimate. By definition, to be legitimate, the marriage must be regarded as a marriage, and for the additional marriage to be a marriage--it must be considered some form of polygamy. Second, bastards do not necessarily come right after their siblings. Uncles, for example, might be regarded as inheriting before bastards. So again, this treatment seems to be put them above the typical bastard--because they are not bastards--they are legitimate--because their parents were married--even though polygamously.

Fair enough, it doesn't really effect my point that salt wives aren't very good evidence that polygamy was never declared illegal. Especially since that same part says Aegon I banned the stealing of women and that's a key part of the whole salt wife thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New shiny! (habit)







Fair enough, it doesn't really effect my point that salt wives aren't very good evidence that polygamy was never declared illegal. Especially since that same part says Aegon I banned the stealing of women and that's a key part of the whole salt wife thing.





Someone made this point a thread back, but I'll make it again. The Maester goes to length about each Targ ruler and what they did and did not do. But makes no mention of outlawing polygamy. Don't you think Yandel would have mentioned if X Targ ruler outlawed something like polygamy?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

New shiny! (habit)

Someone made this point a thread back, but I'll make it again. The Maester goes to length about each Targ ruler and what they did and did not do. But makes no mention of outlawing polygamy. Don't you think Yandel would have mentioned if X Targ ruler outlawed something like polygamy?

He mentions Jaehaerys I created a unified code of law but doesn't go into detail about the actual laws. I don't think it's strange he didn't single out polygamy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He mentions Jaehaerys I created a unified code of law but doesn't go into detail about the actual laws. I don't think it's strange he didn't single out polygamy.

Except that a paragraph or two later that section discusses the reconciliation between Jaehaerys and the Faith. If Jaehaerys outlawed polygamy, while it is not essential that it would be noted in the Faith section, it would have been logical to note that Jaehaerys made an overture toward the Faith by outlawing polygamy--which whatever his motive, it seems logically would have been an issue raised in the reconciliation talks. The fact that it was not mentioned there is not definitive proof, but it is suggestive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He mentions Jaehaerys I created a unified code of law but doesn't go into detail about the actual laws. I don't think it's strange he didn't single out polygamy.

I think something as big as outlawing polygamy, something very Targaryen and cause of instability previously, would be mentioned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:agree: Just like many of you, I think that incest and polygamy were never expressly outlawed by the Faith after the Militant Uprising.



(And yes, thanks for the new thread!)


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaehaerys never outlawed polygamy. Alysanne's cold stare was the only prohibition he needed.



I suppose that, after years of being integrated with the Faith and adopted it as their own, they started to look at it as a bad thing. Even Egg kinda said that the incest was actually a bad thing.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's mentioned that Egg ( in his twoiaf king section) thought incest did more harm then good, and tried to stop his second son from marrying his daughter but failed ...

That's from memory since I'm at work, can anyone quote the section ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think poligamy needed to be outlawed to fall out of practice. It usually creates more problems than it solves, you have to deal with the competition between your wives, between their families, between the children of your different marriages.. then when word gets around that you took a second wife, other lords will want you to take their daughters as third, fourth wives, and then things can really get out of control. It would create way to many Targaryens.



If Rhaegar had managed to have his marriage to Lyanna accepted, I can just see Tywin Lannister trying to have him marry Cersei as well..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think poligamy needed to be outlawed to fall out of practice. It usually creates more problems than it solves, you have to deal with the competition between your wives, between their families, between the children of your different marriages.. then when word gets around that you took a second wife, other lords will want you to take their daughters as third, fourth wives, and then things can really get out of control. It would create way to many Targaryens.

If Rhaegar had managed to have his marriage to Lyanna accepted, I can just see Tywin Lannister trying to have him marry Cersei as well..

Lol. Probably. But there's where free choice comes in. Rhaegar wouldn't have given in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

:agree: Just like many of you, I think that incest and polygamy were never expressly outlawed by the Faith after the Militant Uprising.

(And yes, thanks for the new thread!)

You're welcome. I waited a bit during the evening, and when no one else started a new thread, I went ahead and did it myself (hope I did it right--it has not been pinned yet as of the time of this posting).

As to the incest/polygamy question, maybe I am just being stubborn because I think the evidence for a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna is so strong, but I just don't see Jaehaerys enacting laws that would make his own grandparents marriage essentially illegal (as his grandmother was Aegon I's second wife). It just does not make sense to me that Jaehaerys would enact a law that in some sense called into question his own father's legitimacy. Who does that unless absolutely forced to do so--and the text suggests that the unified code was not done to appease the Faith--but rather to write down the laws so that people had a reference point rather than mere local custom as their guide for the law.

And on the question of outlawing incest--that would call into question his own marriage, his children's marriage, his grandparent's marriage. And if he is trying to appease the Faith, I am not sure outlawing polygamy while keeping incest legal would really be seen as all that accommodating. The Uprising was over incest and not polygamy--specifically, the marriage of his older brother to his older sister. The Faith ultimately lost that war--and I don't see Jaehaerys essentially enacting laws that would seem to suggest that the Faith were justified in their actions by making illegal what they went to war to try to make illegal. That would amount to capitulation after having won. I know he is the "Great Conciliator" but I don't think he is the "Great Appeaser."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think something as big as outlawing polygamy, something very Targaryen and cause of instability previously, would be mentioned.

I swear I replied to this last night, I guess it didn't go through. The book mentions in passing that Jaehaerys unified Westeros (except Dorne) under one code of law. It's like one sentence and no detail is given on any of the laws. I would think it would be an even bigger deal that they outlawed slavery, but I don't remember that being mentioned (I could be wrong on this, but a cursory search turned up nothing.)

I also wanna shoot down the idea that polygamy is "something very Targaryen." Two of them did it, both a long time ago. People thought it was weird when Aegon did it, and Maegor was an insane tyrant who desperately wanted an heir.

It just does not make sense to me that Jaehaerys would enact a law that in some sense called into question his own father's legitimacy

I just don't think he would have seen it this way. His father and grandfather were dead and I doubt he worried about anyone coming up to him and going "haha you're a grand-bastard." He was (hypothetically) looking to the future of his family and the realm. I'd guess they have some rules/custom against ex post facto laws even in Westeros, so it's not like he was suddenly making himself illegitimate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simply told I don't think that Jon Snow got a picture about him for nothing in this book...



Also, of all the current stories' characters he and Dany are the only ones to get a picture.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Simply told I don't think that Jon Snow got a picture about him for nothing in this book...

Also, of all the current stories' characters he and Dany are the only ones to get a picture.

IIRC, Arya is in there too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IIRC, Arya is in there too

Is that supposed to be her in front of Balerion's skull? I meant to ask.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×