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[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J v. 3


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Ok so the little picture of Arya before Balerion's skull was a nice cute wink to aGoT, Dany's picture is understandable because there is a explanation ("Dragons rebirth ?" + half the book is aout the history of her family) but the Jon Snow picture was so out of the blue that he made me laugh: of course, they could not have not put a picture of Jon in the World of Ice and Fire. They didn't even try to make up an excuse for it.


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Ok so the little picture of Arya before Balerion's skull was a nice cute wink to aGoT, Dany's picture is understandable because there is a explanation ("Dragons rebirth ?" + half the book is aout the history of her family) but the Jon Snow picture was so out of the blue that he made me laugh: of course, they could not have not put a picture of Jon in the World of Ice and Fire. They didn't even try to make up an excuse for it.

Yeah I really think those pictures are supposed to be part of the "out of universe" section with the family trees. It makes little sense to include a picture of Daenerys and her dragons considering the books target audience. It makes absolutely no sense to include a picture of Ned Stark's bastard. Especially since he seems to have re-written parts of the Roberts Rebellion section to remove any positive mention of Ned.

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It's mentioned that Egg ( in his twoiaf king section) thought incest did more harm then good, and tried to stop his second son from marrying his daughter but failed ...

That's from memory since I'm at work, can anyone quote the section ?

LOl, he tried to keep his children apart, but they fell in love with their family members regardless.

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Yeah I really think those pictures are supposed to be part of the "out of universe" section with the family trees. It makes little sense to include a picture of Daenerys and her dragons considering the books target audience. It makes absolutely no sense to include a picture of Ned Stark's bastard. Especially since he seems to have re-written parts of the Roberts Rebellion section to remove any positive mention of Ned.

Yes, I think I saw it reported that Ran has confirmed that all pictures (not just these, but all of them) and the family trees are "out of universe" and not part of the maesters' work.

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Yes, I think I saw it reported that Ran has confirmed that all pictures (not just these, but all of them) and the family trees are "out of universe" and not part of the maesters' work.

Yes.

The art is out-of-world, in the sense that it's not in the maester's actual book, so... some of the art is very close to how George sees things, because he was heavily involved in directing the artists (Nasmith's castles, Villeneuve's mistresses of Aegon IV, Simonetti's Iron Throne), while others had less direct input and are more the artist's interpretation.
- Ran
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Brilliant

Like that joke with the pictures, you want to know what is really funny? Take a good look at them.

It goes Dany in a nice warm place, Lineage, The Twins a pair of parallel Castles that are linked, Jon Snow in a Nice cold place. Roberts Rebellion the Trident. You have two polarities with a parallel between them and that parallel shares the same name. Now right in the middle of these these parallels is a tower. Do you know what it is called? The water Tower.

Not that I ever wrote a theory that perfectly fits this imagery but I did. Well before the book came out too. Not that anyone would ever hide anything in imagery. Now I am going to go look at the new Parallels thread where they are talking about parallels and history repeating and the parallels somehow change almost like the symbolism inverts. Hope someone writes a theory about it, it would take a super awesome genius though, super duper awesome.

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Ok so the little picture of Arya before Balerion's skull was a nice cute wink to aGoT, Dany's picture is understandable because there is a explanation ("Dragons rebirth ?" + half the book is aout the history of her family) but the Jon Snow picture was so out of the blue that he made me laugh: of course, they could not have not put a picture of Jon in the World of Ice and Fire. They didn't even try to make up an excuse for it.

What page is the picture of Arya?

I've finally got the book, and I didn't see it.

But, it is interesting that she is included in the book with Jon and Dany.

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Finally got my book, and a few quick, miscellaneous take-aways:



- First, there is a LOT of dragon drama, and I don't know how I feel about them now.



- The Starks do indeed seem as inbred as the Tarygaryens. They seemed to also be into some pretty freaky things, and what badasses. I think I know now where they came by their warging, and maybe the Mormonts too.


The daughters of the Warg king?



- Both the Targs., and the Starks have Blackwoods in their family tree.



- Rhaegar looks like Chris Hemsworth, (Chris is a good looking guy, but I wouldn't have pegged Rhaegar to look that beefy). Jon looks like the picture of Rhaegar.



- Lyanna is described as "boyish," however, since this is written with Queen Cersei in mind, I'm betting she was anything but, no matter how it might have annoyed her, because Robert doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would be into "boyish," or deep enough to be into her spirit. As Ned says, her beauty was all Robert saw.


(I'm betting Arya gets Cats breasts, and she is going to hate it and curse them and the gods will laugh as well as GRRM).



- Aerys, as well as Maegor the Cruel sound a lot like Henry VIII, and Aerys over protection of Viserys sounds like Henry's treatment of his only son Edward.



- It also sounds like Viserys was Aery's favorite.



- I didn't realize that the Starks were sitting right next to the Martells. I would have though Elia might have been in the kings box despite his disregard of her.



And, Elia and I guess that is the RV, definitely did not look happy, but then neither does Lyanna. She is looking at that crown like its a poison adder.There is a guy behind them that looks like he might swoon.



- the full wording of Rhaegars running into Lyanna was that they came face-to-face again, but that "Rhaegar fell upon her." But then again, this is also a book for King Robert as much as Cersei.


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- I didn't realize that the Starks were sitting right next to the Martells. I would have though Elia might have been in the kings box despite his disregard of her.

That might have been the artists freedom, fitting all the important people in one picture. We can't really be sure.

What page is the picture of Arya?

I've finally got the book, and I didn't see it.

But, it is interesting that she is included in the book with Jon and Dany.

I can't currently find it (naturally, I'm looking for it, so I can't find it, isn't that how it usually goes) but one one of the left pages, there's a picture of a dragons skull with a little girl in front of it.. That should be the scene of Arya in A Game of Thrones, I think.

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What page is the picture of Arya?

I've finally got the book, and I didn't see it.

But, it is interesting that she is included in the book with Jon and Dany.

That might have been the artists freedom, fitting all the important people in one picture. We can't really be sure.

I can't currently find it (naturally, I'm looking for it, so I can't find it, isn't that how it usually goes) but one one of the left pages, there's a picture of a dragons skull with a little girl in front of it.. That should be the scene of Arya in A Game of Thrones, I think.

Page 86, right before Daeron I.

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<snip>

And, Elia and I guess that is the RV, definitely did not look happy, but then neither does Lyanna. She is looking at that crown like its a poison adder.There is a guy behind them that looks like he might swoon.

In my head, that's JonCon (he could be sitting in the Baratheon "box", right?). He's like, "Rhaegar, wtf are you doing!?!?!?"

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That might have been the artists freedom, fitting all the important people in one picture. We can't really be sure.

This, several times over. Historically people created a lot of art portraying historical events at which they had not been present, often with substantial inaccuracies and anachronisms. The artwork cannot be considered a reliable source for helping us determine what really happened.

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I notice several people have mentioned the Ironborn custom of salt marriage as a precedent for Rhaegar's hypothesized polygamous marriage. I think it should be dismissed as irrelevant. The Ironborn are a distinct culture with a different religion, different customs, different values, and different laws. Salt marriage, with men being bound to women they'd taken captive whose children were then considered legitimate but inferior to the sons of the rock wife, was unique to the Iron Islands and I find it extremely unlikely that Rhaegar would have imported that particular custom. If he did marry Lyanna - and I believe it's possible he did but equally possible he didn't, as there is next to no evidence one way or the other - he would have been resting on the precedent of the Targaryens who lived before Jaehaerys, not the Ironborn.


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I notice several people have mentioned the Ironborn custom of salt marriage as a precedent for Rhaegar's hypothesized polygamous marriage. I think it should be dismissed as irrelevant. The Ironborn are a distinct culture with a different religion, different customs, different values, and different laws. Salt marriage, with men being bound to women they'd taken captive whose children were then considered legitimate but inferior to the sons of the rock wife, was unique to the Iron Islands and I find it extremely unlikely that Rhaegar would have imported that particular custom. If he did marry Lyanna - and I believe it's possible he did but equally possible he didn't, as there is next to no evidence one way or the other - he would have been resting on the precedent of the Targaryens who lived before Jaehaerys, not the Ironborn.

I agree that the Ironborn are irrelevant when it comes to the Targaryen practice of polygamy.

I don't agree that there isn't evidence supporting the idea that Rhaegar and Lyanna married, though. There are quite a lot of clues all throughout the books pointing at Jon being legitimate.

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