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[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J v. 3


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I notice several people have mentioned the Ironborn custom of salt marriage as a precedent for Rhaegar's hypothesized polygamous marriage. I think it should be dismissed as irrelevant. The Ironborn are a distinct culture with a different religion, different customs, different values, and different laws. Salt marriage, with men being bound to women they'd taken captive whose children were then considered legitimate but inferior to the sons of the rock wife, was unique to the Iron Islands and I find it extremely unlikely that Rhaegar would have imported that particular custom. If he did marry Lyanna - and I believe it's possible he did but equally possible he didn't, as there is next to no evidence one way or the other - he would have been resting on the precedent of the Targaryens who lived before Jaehaerys, not the Ironborn.

I think I may have been the person who first raised the topic of salt marriages here, but I believe you misunderstand my point. Of course no king/prince/claimant to the IT is going to use IB custom as precedent.* My point was regarding Yandel's presentation of the IB custom. I was simply noting that were polygamy outlawed in the realm by Jaehaerys, Yandel would likely have used this, rhetorically, as yet another way of "othering" the IB. He mentions only that stealing women has been outlawed. You'd also think that as an historian he might speculate that the IB polygamy is further evidence that the IB maintained First Men customs.

So, in sum: IB polygamy not as precedent for Rhaegar to use, but rather that Yandel's presentation might be taken as one piece of evidence that Jaehaerys did not officially abolish polygamy.

*Except for an IB pretender, of course.

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A peculiar thing, those IB saltmarriages - yet another instance when a mainland Westerosi should make a derisive comment about an unacceptable number of wives, but no-one does. Nor does any IB remark how those damned greenlanders want to force them to make do with just one woman-wife.


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A peculiar thing, those IB saltmarriages - yet another instance when a mainland Westerosi should make a derisive comment about an unacceptable number of wives, but no-one does. Nor does any IB remark how those damned greenlanders want to force them to make do with just one woman-wife.

How much time do the mainlanders spend musing about the customs of the Ironborn beyond "I wish they'd stop raiding our lands?" I really don't think it's surprising that this hasn't come up. As Winterfell is Burning said the whole concept of salt wives is foreign to the other kingdoms and already illegal because you're not supposed to steal women.

I do enjoy the term "woman-wife." We should keep using that one.

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I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but I was reading Daeron the Good's chapter and when they talked of the possible reasons Daemon rose up, obviously the love he had for Daenarys was brought up. But one version is that he didn't mind marrying Rohanne, just that he wanted to marry others as well. Aegon may have agreed but Daeron refused. If that was the situation, he didn't refuse because it was illegal or that this wasn't a possibility as polygamy had been outlawed by Jaehaerys. It seems like Daeron refused for other reasons having nothing to do with it being against the law.



It just seems like there are many open ended possibilities that polygamy wasn't generally practiced but wasn't illegal.


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A peculiar thing, those IB saltmarriages - yet another instance when a mainland Westerosi should make a derisive comment about an unacceptable number of wives, but no-one does. Nor does any IB remark how those damned greenlanders want to force them to make do with just one woman-wife.

Due!!! that whole passage about Rock and Salt wives is nasty. 'Salt children can inherit if Rock children have all died' And 'young beautiful women were the greatest prize', 'The strongest and most virile among them would become a salt wife'....Barf

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Yeah, I figured so. In front of Balerion's skull, the scene depicted in A Game of Thrones.

That being said, is the art that is in the book supposed to be from in Universe? There is no way that could be the case.

How would Maester Yandel could know about Arya being in the tunnels to commision the art?

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That being said, is the art that is in the book supposed to be from in Universe? There is no way that could be the case.

How would Maester Yandel could know about Arya being in the tunnels to commision the art?

No, the art and the family trees are confirmed by Ran (a co-author) to be not "in universe" but solely part of the book for the benefit of the "real" readers.

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I notice several people have mentioned the Ironborn custom of salt marriage as a precedent for Rhaegar's hypothesized polygamous marriage. I think it should be dismissed as irrelevant. The Ironborn are a distinct culture with a different religion, different customs, different values, and different laws. Salt marriage, with men being bound to women they'd taken captive whose children were then considered legitimate but inferior to the sons of the rock wife, was unique to the Iron Islands and I find it extremely unlikely that Rhaegar would have imported that particular custom. If he did marry Lyanna - and I believe it's possible he did but equally possible he didn't, as there is next to no evidence one way or the other - he would have been resting on the precedent of the Targaryens who lived before Jaehaerys, not the Ironborn.

It is stated that the First Men practiced both polygamy and thralldom. The wildlings still practice polygamy. Even if R+L didnot marry in front of a septon, they are a legitimate couple depending on where you stand. Perhaps their Ice marriage was Rhaegar kidnapping her at swordpoint and their Fire marriage was the ancient Valyrian ceremony which Maegor practiced.

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It is stated that the First Men practiced both polygamy and thralldom. The wildlings still practice polygamy. Even if R+L didnot marry in front of a septon, they are a legitimate couple depending on where you stand. Perhaps their Ice marriage was Rhaegar kidnapping her at swordpoint and their Fire marriage was the ancient Valyrian ceremony which Maegor practiced.

I still think they were married on the Isle of Faces. Seems too convenient of a location for them not to have.

edit: :ninja: 'd

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Perhaps, but I think that the Isle of Faces is located where it is mainly for the purpose of R+L having weirwood conveniently nearby :-)

I don't think they'd be able to get there though, unless Howland helped them or told Lyanna some secret trick to making it to the island. Also as it turns out weirwoods do exist elsewhere in the south, contrary to what Catelyn says early in Game.

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I don't think they'd be able to get there though, unless Howland helped them or told Lyanna some secret trick to making it to the island. Also as it turns out weirwoods do exist elsewhere in the south, contrary to what Catelyn says early in Game.

I still think it's the IoF, but I will admit I was surprised at how many weirwoods apparently exist in the south. Like...big ones.

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I still think it's the IoF, but I will admit I was surprised at how many weirwoods apparently exist in the south. Like...big ones.

They could have been married in front of any weirwood, of course...but the IoF seems like the holiest place for the Old Gods in the South. If they wanted to marry and join their houses (and thus seal the pact of Ice and Fire), THAT'S the place to go...surrounded by the Old Gods.

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I don't think they'd be able to get there though, unless Howland helped them or told Lyanna some secret trick to making it to the island. Also as it turns out weirwoods do exist elsewhere in the south, contrary to what Catelyn says early in Game.

Westerosi spam? "Unable to have more children with your current wife? Need a supernatural witnesss to your second marriage/wedding? Use this one weird trick to make it to the Isle of Faces!"

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That being said, is the art that is in the book supposed to be from in Universe? There is no way that could be the case.

How would Maester Yandel could know about Arya being in the tunnels to commision the art?

The art is completely out-of-universe, as are the family trees. They are for the benefit of the reader :)

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but I was reading Daeron the Good's chapter and when they talked of the possible reasons Daemon rose up, obviously the love he had for Daenarys was brought up. But one version is that he didn't mind marrying Rohanne, just that he wanted to marry others as well. Aegon may have agreed but Daeron refused. If that was the situation, he didn't refuse because it was illegal or that this wasn't a possibility as polygamy had been outlawed by Jaehaerys. It seems like Daeron refused for other reasons having nothing to do with it being against the law.

It just seems like there are many open ended possibilities that polygamy wasn't generally practiced but wasn't illegal.

Excellent example.

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I don't think they'd be able to get there though, unless Howland helped them or told Lyanna some secret trick to making it to the island. Also as it turns out weirwoods do exist elsewhere in the south, contrary to what Catelyn says early in Game.

Why don't you think either Rhaegar or Lyanna (or Dayne or Whent) would know how to get to IoF?

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Why don't you think either Rhaegar or Lyanna (or Dayne or Whent) would know how to get to IoF?

Yeah, this one is confusing me, as well. I didn't realize there was some sort of barrier around the place.

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Westerosi spam? "Unable to have more children with your current wife? Need a supernatural witnesss to your second marriage/wedding? Use this one weird trick to make it to the Isle of Faces!"

:laugh:

Why don't you think either Rhaegar or Lyanna (or Dayne or Whent) would know how to get to IoF?

I don't think people leave it alone out of the goodness of their hearts. I thought there was something in one of the old worldbook samples about queer currents and fogs and it being hard to get there. I can't find it in the worldbook so I may just be confused. Bran does say that nobody goes there at one point, and Luwin says that the Crannogmen and the children were close in the past.

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I don't think people leave it alone out of the goodness of their hearts. I thought there was something in one of the old worldbook samples about queer currents and fogs and it being hard to get there. I can't find it in the worldbook so I may just be confused. Bran does say that nobody goes there at one point, and Luwin says that the Crannogmen and the children were close in the past.

I don't remember the specific passage you are referencing, but maybe people don't go there because there either is no reason to go or it is inconvenient. It hold deep religious meaning to followers of the Old Gods--most of whom don't live that close to IoF--and is just a useless island with weird trees to everyone else.

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