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[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J v. 3


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:laugh:

I don't think people leave it alone out of the goodness of their hearts. I thought there was something in one of the old worldbook samples about queer currents and fogs and it being hard to get there. I can't find it in the worldbook so I may just be confused. Bran does say that nobody goes there at one point, and Luwin says that the Crannogmen and the children were close in the past.

I don't think that automatically equates to "difficult to get to", though. It's probably more likely that the place is isolated and creepy to those who don't worship the Old Gods...and given its location, it's pretty much surrounded by those who don't.

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Regarding whether you need a special "trick" to get to the IoF, there is this:

"Whether the green men still survive on their isle is not clear although there is the occasional account of some foolhardy young riverlord taking a boat to the isle and catching sight of them before winds rise up or a flock of ravens drives him away." (9)

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Regarding whether you need a special "trick" to get to the IoF, there is this:

To me that indicates that someone is keeping them away from it, though. Like Bloodraven.

But I doubt that he would keep Lyanna and Rhaegar away, knowing what Jon will become later on.

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I think the Green Men let HR come to them. And then later they let RL come to them.

Sure, I'll believe they let Howland in as the crannogmen are close to the old gods, but why R&L?

As it happens there's another weirwood close at hand - the one in Harrenhal's godswood. And we know Rhaegar was friendly with Lord Whent.

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Sure, I'll believe they let Howland in as the crannogmen are close to the old gods, but why R&L?

As it happens there's another weirwood close at hand - the one in Harrenhal's godswood. And we know Rhaegar was friendly with Lord Whent.

I am not picky--any weirwood will do. If it turns out IoF would be too difficult to get to, I am fine with concluding that godswood is the location of the marriage ceremony. The real point is that R&L would have had access to a weirwood at the time near to where they were. Which weirwood is less important.

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Sure, I'll believe they let Howland in as the crannogmen are close to the old gods, but why R&L?

As it happens there's another weirwood close at hand - the one in Harrenhal's godswood. And we know Rhaegar was friendly with Lord Whent.

That's true. I think it depends on what the Green Men/COTF want--if they somehow knew that Jon would be born of RL and that he's going to restore balance, then they might be willing. But yes HH would work.

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Exactly, the IoF is protected from those who don't have "permission" to be there. I wasn't suggesting that it was impossible for R&L to have gone there, just that they would have needed to have been allowed, whether through something Howland knows or through some sort of VIP Pact of Ice and Fire status.


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Supernatural reasons aside - those Green Men would have been in need of Green Women, me thinks, if they were intended to survive. :)

Can a woman be a greenseer?

I always imagined they lived forever, or at least for a very long time. They may even grow into the trees like Bloodraven.

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I always imagined they lived forever, or at least for a very long time. They may even grow into the trees like Bloodraven.

120ish years per man is small in comparison to the lifespan of their calling. We'll never find out if they are immortal - GRRM simply does not give away the mysteries. :)

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There is this:

http://astralgia.com/webportfolio/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

" Linda:Will we see or hear anything of the green men on the Isle of Faces? If not, what are they like? Just a secluded order that's never bothered, and has no role in the events of the Seven Kingdoms?

GRRM: The green men and the Isle of Faces will come to the fore in later books. (Boy, it's tough to sneak anything by you guys.) "

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There is this:

http://astralgia.com/webportfolio/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

" Linda:Will we see or hear anything of the green men on the Isle of Faces? If not, what are they like? Just a secluded order that's never bothered, and has no role in the events of the Seven Kingdoms?

GRRM: The green men and the Isle of Faces will come to the fore in later books. (Boy, it's tough to sneak anything by you guys.) "

Appropriate

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In terms of the question of Rhaegar and Aerys relationship is it possible that Rhaegar knew that his father might want to replace him with Viserys?


It was not uncommon at all in real history for Kings and Queens to favor one child over the other, and sometimes to pit them against one another as is the case of Henry II and Eleanor of Acquitaine.


His oldest and heir, Young Henry revolted against Henry over tensions regarding inheritance along with his mother, and two brothers. John, (who sounds a lot like Viserys), became his favorite.



This might be why GRRM made his statement that sometimes having too many sons can have consequences.



Then there is Edward II and his wife Isabella, (who with her lover Roger Mortimer overthrew Edward in favor of their son, Edward III). Edward the III would go on to be succeeded by his grandson, Richard II when his own father, "The Black Prince" suddenly died.



William the Conqueror despised his own firts born son, whom his wife Matilda doted upon.



Though Aerys had Rhaegar for his heir, Aerys seemed anxious for another, and certainly by the time Viserys was born, Rhaegar was of an age that his personality would be well evident and perhaps challenging to Aerys, (GRRM did say their relationship was complicated), and given the way Aerys overprotected Viserys at his birth, burning all his baby gifts for fear of contamination, it seems the foundations for tensions were already developing.


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In terms of the question of Rhaegar and Aerys relationship is it possible that Rhaegar knew that his father might want to replace him with Viserys?

It was not uncommon at all in real history for Kings and Queens to favor one child over the other, and sometimes to pit them against one another as is the case of Henry II and Eleanor of Acquitaine.

That's a good question. Rhaegar might have suspected Aerys of plotting to do that. Sorta makes me wonder if Rhaegar has his own "little birds" at court (if R was living mostly on Dragonstone) who would tell him what Aerys was doing--perhaps Martell, Whent, and Dayne?

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That's a good question. Rhaegar might have suspected Aerys of plotting to do that. Sorta makes me wonder if Rhaegar has his own "little birds" at court (if R was living mostly on Dragonstone) who would tell him what Aerys was doing--perhaps Martell, Whent, and Dayne?

We do have the contesting groups at Aerys's court, the old men on the Small Council and the young patrons of Rahegar, like Jon Conn, etc (I don't have the book handy) those young lords could be Rhaegar's "little birds."

Within reason the KG are supposed to keep the king's secrets. Also, if Martell and Dayne were the sworn swords of Elia and Rhaegar, respectively, wouldn't they be with them on Dragonstone?

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We do have the contesting groups at Aerys's court, the old men on the Small Council and the young patrons of Rahegar, like Jon Conn, etc (I don't have the book handy) those young lords could be Rhaegar's "little birds."

Within reason the KG are supposed to keep the king's secrets. Also, if Martell and Dayne were the sworn swords of Elia and Rhaegar, respectively, wouldn't they be with them on Dragonstone?

I think Dayne was with Rhaegar pretty much 24/7 once assigned as sworn shield. Martell..perhaps? Not sure about his movements.

But, as you mention there is JonCon and those on #TeamRhaegar like Mooton and Lonmouth who might have hung around KL to spy.

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