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[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J v. 3


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I saw a theory, it's posted in a video on youtube about Jon being the son of Brandon and Ashara and Daenerys being the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

At first I thought it would be impossible, as we are told Daenerys was born in Dragonstone. But then I wonder, was she really born in there? She doesn't know for certain she was, all her sources about her childhood come from Viserys. Also we have that queer thing about the lemon tree in the house of the red door in Braavos and we know there is no lemon trees in Braavos, what we can see it can be a fabrication, a lie someone told her, possibly Viserys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-u2gUM4Vvc

the video above is the first of three videos about this subject, it worth to watch it. It's a bit old, so sorry if you all already heard about this theory.

Theories do not contradict with known facts such as the timeline.

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Robert's Rebellion has a very confusing timeline, there are spaces of times with nothing going on (maybe small battles, but that's it)

But we know Brandon was dead before it started. That fact would make Jon older than he is. Ned could not pass Jon off as just a bit younger than Robb if Brandon had been the father. Jon would have been noticeably older than Robb when they were babies.

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He (Aegon I) traveled throughout the realm for the rest of his life, until his final progress in 33 AC—making a point of paying his respects to the High Septon in the Starry Sept each time he visited Oldtown, guesting beneath the roofs of the lords of the great houses (even Winterfell, on that last progress), and beneath the roofs of many lesser lords, knights, and common innkeepers.

...

In these progresses, the king was accompanied not only by his courtiers but by maesters and septons as well. Six maesters were often in his company to advise him upon the local laws and traditions of the former realms, so that he might rule in judgment at the courts he held. Rather than attempting to unify the realm under one set of laws, he respected the differing customs of each region and sought to judge as their past kings might have. (It would be left for a later king [Jaehaerys I?] to bring the laws of the realm into accord.)

"the dragon has 3 heads" -- attributed to Aegon I and his sister-wives, Visenya (for duty - Elia) and Rhaenys (for desire - Lyanna)

Rhaegar must have known that Aegon did not want to put the whole realm into one faith, believing/respecting that the people of the North are followers of the old gods, (including the custom of marrying in front of a weirwood/heart tree) and there's something suspicious about the 'last progress' at Winterfell.

Did Aegon return Torrhen's crown to him (or if he's dead, to his sons) with the condition that he/they don't wear it, thus it is kept safe inside the crypts of Winterfell?... it's a place where Jon will go.

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I agree with most everything else you said, but that's not really proof that the Faith hated polygamy more than incest. For one thing the Faith was more independent back when Aenys was king and Maegor was looking for a Septon.

I think I may have figured out why the Targaryens were able to continue to indulge in incest but not polygamy: the wedding vows of the Faith prohibit polygamy.

This would explain why Aegon I could do it; he wasn't married in the Faith. And it would explain why Maegor could not find a septon who was willing to perform a second marriage for him -- his vows from his first marriage prohibited him from taking a second wife. And it would explain why the Faith would put pressure on Jaehaerys to outlaw polygamy.

So what is the support for this theory? GRRM tells us in ASOS that a marriage in the Faith involves "seven vows". From Joffrey's wedding:

The seven vows were made, the seven blessings invoked, and the seven promises exchanged.

GRRM also tells us that one of those vows precludes the man from sleeping with/having children with other women, in a Jon chapter:

Even my father stumbled once, when he forgot his vows and sired a bastard.

Now, Jon is thinking of Ned when he says this. And we know Ned and Catelyn were married by a septon. So this is part of the seven vows.
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I think I may have figured out why the Targaryens were able to continue to indulge in incest but not polygamy: the wedding vows of the Faith prohibit polygamy.

This would explain why Aegon I could do it; he wasn't married in the Faith. And it would explain why Maegor could not find a septon who was willing to perform a second marriage for him -- his vows from his first marriage prohibited him from taking a second wife. And it would explain why the Faith would put pressure on Jaehaerys to outlaw polygamy.

The Faith putting pressure on the Targs to outlaw it does not mean that it was, in turn, outlawed. It means the Faith didn't like Polygamy which is something we already know. We also know that the Faith tends to bow and say "yes sire" when the people with dragons tell them to shut up. Why would the Faith pressure the Crown to outlaw polygamy but but totally okay with incest. We know that they despise the latter quite vehemently. The fact that polygamy was out of practice is adapting to culture (which is largely of the Faith) but not a legal issue.

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The Faith putting pressure on the Targs to outlaw it does not mean that it was, in turn, outlawed. It means the Faith didn't like Polygamy which is something we already know. We also know that the Faith tends to bow and say "yes sire" when the people with dragons tell them to shut up. Why would the Faith pressure the Crown to outlaw polygamy but but totally okay with incest. We know that they despise the latter quite vehemently. The fact that polygamy was out of practice is adapting to culture (which is largely of the Faith) but not a legal issue.

What I am getting at is that a Septon can't perform a wedding for a man who already has a wife, because he can't administer vows to a man who, by taking those vows, is breaking them. It puts the septon in an untenable position, and the Faith would need to have it outlawed.

And even if it wasn't outlawed, it means Rhaegar could not marry Lyanna without breaking the vows he made to the Faith when he wed Elia -- which surely means that the Faith would have to view any second marriage as invalid.

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What I am getting at is that a Septon can't perform a wedding for a man who already has a wife, because he can't administer vows to a man who, by taking those vows, is braking them. It puts the septon in an untenable position, and the Faith would need to have it outlawed.

And even if it wasn't outlawed, it means Rhaegar could not marry Lyanna without breaking the vows he made to the Faith when he wed Elia -- which surely means that the Faith would have to view any seconfpd marriage as invalid.

Ok, let's say that's true. R can't marry in the Faith of the 7 because it would the Septon would be breaking some sort of vow.

There are other options for marriage--namely the Old Gods and the Valyrian Fire tradition (whatever that comprises of). And actually given that I think Rhaegar is in part trying to fulfill prophecy by getting the TPTWP who's has the song/is the song of ice and fire, then it actually makes sense that he wold marry in the two traditions that go hand in hand with ice and fire. Marrying in the Faith of the 7 would be politically advantageous which is why R would seek to do that as well--and, honestly, the High Septon does what he's told. If R told him to forgive any "sin" against some wandering (Maribald) Septon who married RL...then that's exactly what the HS would do.

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Ok, let's say that's true. R can't marry in the Faith of the 7 because it would the Septon would be breaking some sort of vow.

There are other options for marriage--namely the Old Gods and the Valyrian Fire tradition (whatever that comprises of). And actually given that I think Rhaegar is in part trying to fulfill prophecy by getting the TPTWP who's has the song/is the song of ice and fire, then it actually makes sense that he wold marry in the two traditions that go hand in hand with ice and fire. Marrying in the Faith of the 7 would be politically advantageous which is why R would seek to do that as well--and, honestly, the High Septon does what he's told. If R told him to forgive any "sin" against some wandering (Maribald) Septon who married RL...then that's exactly what the HS would do.

the problem I have with this is that, if Septon Maribald was asked to perform a wedding for Rhaegar and Lyanna, one of two things would have to happen. Either Septon Maribald would know who Rhaegar was, and that he was already married, in which case any decent septon would refuse. Or Rhaegar lied and said he was not already married, in which case he entered into the marriage under false pretenses and it is probablupy void. I just don't see Rhaegar getting away with a second marriage.
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the problem I have with this is that, if Septon Maribald was asked to perform a wedding for Rhaegar and Lyanna, one of two things would have to happen. Either Septon Maribald would know who Rhaegar was, and that he was already married, in which case any decent septon would refuse. Or Rhaegar lied and said he was not already married, in which case he entered into the marriage under false pretenses and it is probablupy void. I just don't see Rhaegar getting away with a second marriage.

And like I said, the marriage for the Faith of the 7 would be for political reasons only and R might have avoided it for all the reasons you're saying. But marriages are not null and void if done in the Old God way or potentially even in the Valyrian way. And Rhaegar, who has just (hopefully) deposed his mad-as-bats-father and restored some sort of order and peace will tell the HIS to approve his marriage to L or else "I'll find me a new HS"

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And like I said, the marriage for the Faith of the 7 would be for political reasons only and R might have avoided it for all the reasons you're saying. But marriages are not null and void if done in the Old God way or potentially even in the Valyrian way. And Rhaegar, who has just (hopefully) deposed his mad-as-bats-father and restored some sort of order and peace will tell the HIS to approve his marriage to L or else "I'll find me a new HS"

For purposes of this discussion, it is unfortunate that Maegor did not have any children by his later wives. That would have given us some insight into whether those "marriages" were ever truly recognized.
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For purposes of this discussion, it is unfortunate that Maegor did not have any children by his later wives. That would have given us some insight into whether those "marriages" were ever truly recognized.

It is lol. Though, I wonder if GRRM did that so that we'd be in the dark just a bit longer....

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So, now we know that the Daynes,(and everybody else in Westeros), are kin to Rhaegar. That explains a lot to me now in terms of why Arthur would watch Rhaegar wed another woman if as a Dornishman his natural allegiance should be to House Martell.

It makes me we wonder then if competing for dragon power, there may have been some tension between Starfall and the Martell court?

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I saw a theory, it's posted in a video on youtube about Jon being the son of Brandon and Ashara and Daenerys being the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

At first I thought it would be impossible, as we are told Daenerys was born in Dragonstone. But then I wonder, was she really born in there? She doesn't know for certain she was, all her sources about her childhood come from Viserys. Also we have that queer thing about the lemon tree in the house of the red door in Braavos and we know there is no lemon trees in Braavos, what we can see it can be a fabrication, a lie someone told her, possibly Viserys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-u2gUM4Vvc

the video above is the first of three videos about this subject, it worth to watch it. It's a bit old, so sorry if you all already heard about this theory.

Are they those Preston vids? Yes, they have been discussed and ripped to shreds. It's not just Dany's birthplace, nothing really fits there.

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So, now we know that the Daynes,(and everybody else in Westeros), are kin to Rhaegar. That explains a lot to me now in terms of why Arthur would watch Rhaegar wed another woman if as a Dornishman his natural allegiance should be to House Martell.

It makes me we wonder then if competing for dragon power, there may have been some tension between Starfall and the Martell court?

You just made me realize that there is no way Arthur Dayne served as a witness at a Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage.

This is because Arthur was a knight, so he followed the Seven. Arthur knows that when Rhaegar married Elia in a Sept, Rhaegar gave the seven vows, meaning he vowed not to father children on another woman.

And we know Ned, who understands from personal experience the seven vows, thinks highly of Arthur.

Ergo, Arthur could not have served as a witness to Rhaegar while Rhaegar broke his vows.

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You just made me realize that there is no way Arthur Dayne served as a witness at a Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage.

This is because Arthur was a knight, so he followed the Seven. Arthur knows that when Rhaegar married Elia in a Sept, Rhaegar gave the seven vows, meaning he vowed not to father children on another woman.

And we know Ned, who understands from personal experience the seven vows, thinks highly of Arthur.

Ergo, Arthur could not have served as a witness to Rhaegar while Rhaegar broke his vows.

But Arthur planning to help overthrow his King isn't breaking a vow? I don't think Arthur was so concerned with that given that Rhaegar had some sort of plan.

You also do not NEED to follow the seven to be a knight. Jorah Mormont is a knight, oiled or whatever in the light of the seven, and he is 1) from the North and 2) doesn't follow any particular religion.

Ser Roderik Cassel is also from the North, from a minor house sworn to WF, and a Knight

Knights are just more common in the south, where the Andals took root, but but following the 7 is not a prereq.

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I think I may have figured out why the Targaryens were able to continue to indulge in incest but not polygamy: the wedding vows of the Faith prohibit polygamy.

This would explain why Aegon I could do it; he wasn't married in the Faith. And it would explain why Maegor could not find a septon who was willing to perform a second marriage for him -- his vows from his first marriage prohibited him from taking a second wife. And it would explain why the Faith would put pressure on Jaehaerys to outlaw polygamy.

So what is the support for this theory? GRRM tells us in ASOS that a marriage in the Faith involves "seven vows". From Joffrey's wedding:

GRRM also tells us that one of those vows precludes the man from sleeping with/having children with other women, in a Jon chapter:Now, Jon is thinking of Ned when he says this. And we know Ned and Catelyn were married by a septon. So this is part of the seven vows.

I don't see anything new here. A pledge of fidelity is pretty standard in weddings.

You just made me realize that there is no way Arthur Dayne seven as a witness at a a Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage.

This is because Arthur was a knight, so he followed the Seven. Arthur knows that when Rhaegar married Elia in a Sept, Rhaegar gave the seven vows, meaning he vowed not to father children on another woman.

And we know Ned, who understands from personal experience the seven vows, thinks highly of Arthur.

Ergo, Arthur could not have served as a witness to Rnaegar while Rhaegar broke his vows.

Here's one way: Rhaegar commands Arthur to witness the marriage. So I guess we can put that argument to bed.

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But Arthur planning to help overthrow his King isn't breaking a vow? I don't think Arthur was so concerned with that given that Rhaegar had some sort of plan.

You also do not NEED to follow the seven to be a knight. Jorah Mormont is a knight, oiled or whatever in the light of the seven, and he is 1) from the North and 2) doesn't follow any particular religion.

Ser Roderik Cassel is also from the North, from a minor house sworn to WF, and a Knight

Knights are just more common in the south, where the Andals took root, but but following the 7 is not a prereq.

The key point here is that if Ned thought that Dayne was honorable, then Dayne could not have participated in a situation in which Rhaegar broke his vows.

There is no reason to think that Ned believed Arthur was plotting to overthrow Aerys.

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I don't see anything new here. A pledge of fidelity is pretty standard in weddings.

Here's one way: Rhaegar commands Arthur to witness the marriage. So I guess we can put that argument to bed.

i didn't realize you put so much stock in the KG's vow to obey Rhaegar's orders, at the expense of their other obligations :)
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