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[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J v. 3


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The key point here is that if Ned thought that Dayne was honorable, then Dayne could not have participated in a situation in which Rhaegar broke his vows.

There is no reason to think that Ned believed Arthur was plotting to overthrow Aerys.

You think Rhaegar broke his vows, that is not the same as Ned thinking Rhaegar broke his vows.

And Ned thinks that Dayne was the finest knight because he died doing what the KG were supposed to do: defending their king. You think Ned would have thought Dayne and Rhaegar honorable if there hadn't been a marriage? Really? If Rhaegar had bedded his little sister without a wedding and Dayne just looked away during all this?

When Ned compares Robert--someone who frequents brothels and sires bastards--against Rhaegar--whom he doesn't think did any of these things (whether or not R did we don't know)---Ned decides that RHAEGAR is the more honorable.

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The key point here is that if Ned thought that Dayne was honorable, then Dayne could not have participated in a situation in which Rhaegar broke his vows.

There is no reason to think that Ned believed Arthur was plotting to overthrow Aerys.

This is preposterous. KG swear to obey. Enough said. And btw, there's a gigantic hole in your argument. Because whether Rhaegar married Lyanna or not, he would still be breaking his vows when he had sex with her. Which was witnessed by Dayne.

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If Rhaegar had bedded his little sister without a wedding and Dayne just looked away during all this?

Aemon the Dragonknight is viewed as one of the most honorable men in the history of the Kingsguard, and he spent most of his career looking on while his king bedded women without weddings. He died defending his unworthy king from men who legitimate reason to want said king dead - if anything, the unworthiness of Aegon IV, makes Aemon look all the more honorable for his sacrifice and obedience in the eyes of the people of Westeros.

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This is preposterous. KG swear to obey. Enough said. And btw, there's a gigantic hole in your argument. Because whether Rhaegar married Lyanna or not, he would still be breaking his vows when he had sex with her. Which was witnessed by Dayne.

I don't think Dayne or any KG could stop a prince from having a mistress. I do wonder if Ned would think highly of a KG who actively participated in a solemn religious ceremony that involved oathbreaking by Rhaegar.

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You think Rhaegar broke his vows, that is not the same as Ned thinking Rhaegar broke his vows.

And Ned thinks that Dayne was the finest knight because he died doing what the KG were supposed to do: defending their king. You think Ned would have thought Dayne and Rhaegar honorable if there hadn't been a marriage? Really? If Rhaegar had bedded his little sister without a wedding and Dayne just looked away during all this?

When Ned compares Robert--someone who frequents brothels and sires bastards--against Rhaegar--whom he doesn't think did any of these things (whether or not R did we don't know)---Ned decides that RHAEGAR is the more honorable.

Ned never thinks that Rhaegar never fathered bastards. He thinks Rhaegar did not frequent brothels.

Just like Jaime never went with a prostitute, but managed to father 3 bastards.

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I don't think Dayne or any KG could stop a prince from having a mistress. I do wonder if Ned would think highly of a KG who actively participated in a solemn religious ceremony that involved oathbreaking by Rhaegar.

Here's the thing you apparently don't get. Having sex with Lyanna Stark is "oathbreaking" by Rhaegar whether they're married or not. In fact, it's the same vow that covers both scenarios.

Ned never thinks that Rhaegar never fathered bastards. He thinks Rhaegar did not frequent brothels.

Just like Jaime never went with a prostitute, but managed to father 3 bastards.

As a contrast to Robert, who fathered a bastard on a whore. The reason Ned can concludes that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels, is that Rhaegar has no bastards that Ned is aware of.

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Here's the thing you apparently don't get. Having sex with Lyanna Stark is "oathbreaking" by Rhaegar whether they're married or not. In fact, it's the same vow that covers both scenarios.

don't you think there is a difference between standing aside while Rhaegar breaks his oath by sleeping with a mistress and affirmatively participating by serving as a witness to an illicit wedding?

As a contrast to Robert, who fathered a bastard on a whore. The reason Ned can concludes that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels, is that Rhaegar has no bastards that Ned is aware of.

Ned would have to be very naive to think that the only way to sire a bastard would be to visit a brothel. For example, Aegon IV did not find Melissa Blackwood in a brothel, but he did manage to sire a bastard with her.

ETA: were you here for the debate about whether Rhaegar's wedding vows to Elia included monogamy?

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don't you think there is a difference between standing aside while Rhaegar breaks his oath by sleeping with a mistress and affirmatively participating by serving as a witness to an illicit wedding? Ned would have to be very naive to think that the only way to sire a bastard would be to visit a brothel. For example, Aegon IV did not find Melissa Blackwood in a brothel, but he did manage to sire a bastard with her.

ETA: were you here for the debate about whether Rhaegar's wedding vows to Elia included monogamy?

You don't know that he was "affirmatively participating." It's not like he was the fucking DJ. If he witnessed a ceremony, he was probably told to do so. Anyway, the onus is on you to make your case. You claimed Ser Arthur could not have witnessed a marriage because of his affiliation with the Faith.

And you would have to be awfully naive to think I was implying that.

I don't think so. And I don't see what there is to debate.

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Aemon the Dragonknight is viewed as one of the most honorable men in the history of the Kingsguard, and he spent most of his career looking on while his king bedded women without weddings. He died defending his unworthy king from men who legitimate reason to want said king dead - if anything, the unworthiness of Aegon IV, makes Aemon look all the more honorable for his sacrifice and obedience in the eyes of the people of Westeros.

That's they key part - he kept his oath no matter what. If R+L were not married, this is not what Dayne did.

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I don't see anything new here. A pledge of fidelity is pretty standard in weddings.

Here's one way: Rhaegar commands Arthur to witness the marriage. So I guess we can put that argument to bed.

@ The Twinslayer: To build upon what J. Stargaryen says here, the line you quote about Ned betraying his vows need not refer to a vow of monogamy, but might rather refer to one of fidelity within marriage. Without knowing more about those seven vows, I don't think we can say that one is of monogamy (in the literal sense of marriage to one person). In traditions that allow for polygamy, it can still be expected that one will stay sexually faithful within the bounds of one's marriages, however many marriages one might have. I mean, obviously polygamy is not normative in the seven kingdoms, but I don't think we have enough information to think that there is something in the vows that explicitly and definitively rules it out, with no wiggle room.

But the other points made here are also apropos, namely that there may have been a second marriage within a different religious tradition, and that Dayne's thoughts on the matter are unknown and possibly irrelevant (in terms of his behavior on account of his KG vows; obviously his thoughts on the matter may be relevant in terms of characterization and how the reader feels about the events in question).

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But my point is, is that the reason Rhaegar was able to have Daynes fidelity without it being in conflict with House Martell, not betraying them, is because of Daynes primary loyalty to House Targaryen, and specifically Rhaegar to save it.

Knowing how treacherous the Dornish court was, I always wondered what the Martells might have made of Daynes, (speculatively including Ashara), involvement at the TOJ unless they were a bit of a power to themselves, hence Ariannes statement about Darkstar being highborn enough to marry, as well as his own connection to the Martells vs. Starfall.

His evoking Elias name as a reason for revenge may have been his way of distancing himself, and in contrast to "the sword of the morning," whose honor he seems to mock.

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