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[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J v. 3


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I just don't think he would have seen it this way. His father and grandfather were dead and I doubt he worried about anyone coming up to him and going "haha you're a grand-bastard." He was (hypothetically) looking to the future of his family and the realm. I'd guess they have some rules/custom against ex post facto laws even in Westeros, so it's not like he was suddenly making himself illegitimate.

I think you misunderstood my point. I am not suggesting he would be fearful that "ex post facto" he would be made illegitimate. I am saying that he would not pass a law which, if it had been in place at the time of his grandfather, would have made his grandfather's marriage illegal, and made his father illegitimate. That law would be conceding too much to the Faith when there was no need to do so. Basically, why would Jaehaerys choose to make polygamy illegal? I see no benefit to doing so, as he did not need to make this concession to the Faith. Only Targs had practiced it (other than perhaps the IB regarding salt wives and some wilding followers of the Old Gods who are not within Westeros proper), so it is not like the law is needed to prevent a flurry of polygamous marriages. More reasonable would be to just keep the law silent on the issue, implicitly leaving it as legal.

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I think you misunderstood my point. I am not suggesting he would be fearful that "ex post facto" he would be made illegitimate. I am saying that he would not pass a law which, if it had been in place at the time of his grandfather, would have made his grandfather's marriage illegal, and made his father illegitimate. That law would be conceding too much to the Faith when there was no need to do so.

I just don't see why he would get hung up on that. When he abolished the right of the first night I doubt he hesitated because if that law was in place in his grandfather's day his grandfather might have been considered a rapist.

Basically, why would Jaehaerys choose to make polygamy illegal? I see no benefit to doing so, as he did not need to make this concession to the Faith. Only Targs had practiced it (other than perhaps the IB regarding salt wives and some wilding followers of the Old Gods who are not within Westeros proper), so it is not like the law is needed to prevent a flurry of polygamous marriages. More reasonable would be to just keep the law silent on the issue, implicitly leaving it as legal.

Maybe he did it because he really thought it was the best thing to do, having witnessed the problems caused by Aegon having children from two different wives.

The reason he could not just remain silent on the issue is because he was unifying the various kingdoms under one set of laws. If for example polygamy was legal in the Reach but outlawed in the Vale, he would have to take a stand one way or the other.

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It is important to keep in mind that the Faith hated polygamy more than incest. Maegor could not find a Septon who was willing to perform a polygamous marriage, but Jaehaerys and Alysanne were able to get a Septon to

perform an incestuous marriage, as were many other Targs.

Also, if the Conciliator wanted to make some concession to the Faith, outlawing polygamy was the smart thing to do. He could not outlaw incest without voiding his own marriage.

And it is telling that polygamy stopped around the time Jaehaerys set out his laws.

Set against that, we have a theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. The support for this, as I understand it, is:

1. the Kingsguard at the TOJ, which has other good explanations

2. Mormont's Raven called Jon "King," but only after Robb's will named him King in the North

3. a belief that Lyanna would not have agreed to be a royal mistress, despite the similarities between her and Melissa Blackwood (Royal mistresses honored by their families with a statue whose bastard sons went on to be LC of the Night's Watch).

That said, just because polygamy was illegal does not mean Rhaegar didn't try it, just like First Night is illegal but Roose still does it and just hides it. But it does mean the validity of such a marriage would be very questionable.

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I just don't see why he would get hung up on that. When he abolished the right of the first night I doubt he hesitated because if that law was in place in his grandfather's day his grandfather might have been considered a rapist.

I don't see this as analogous. I don't know whether we have any evidence that the Targs engaged in first night rights--but even if they did, it is not as central to their identity. It is particular act they might have taken at a time when it was an accepted act. That is completely different than undermining the entire basis for his legitimacy and acknowledging that his grandparents should not have been allowed to get married.

Maybe he did it because he really thought it was the best thing to do, having witnessed the problems caused by Aegon having children from two different wives.

The reason he could not just remain silent on the issue is because he was unifying the various kingdoms under one set of laws. If for example polygamy was legal in the Reach but outlawed in the Vale, he would have to take a stand one way or the other.

It is possible that he thought it was the best thing to do, but we have no evidence one way or the other regarding his thoughts on polygamy. We know he continued the practice of marrying brother to sister. While I understand these practices arguably had opposite political implications (one resulted in fewer claimants and the other in increased claimants), the problem with Maegor was not really a problem with polygamy--it was a problem with Maegor (he was a really bad buy).

Well, he could implicitly take a side by remaining silent. If, for example, polygamy was legal in the Reach--it would not be legal because there was a writing anywhere that said "Polygamy is legal." There just want no law against it. Jaehaerys merely needs to leave the issue of polygamy out of the "unified code" and thereby it is legal (if something is not listed as illegal, then it is legal). So he could remain silent--which would be taking a side, just not in a way that was very public or noticeable, perhaps.

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You're welcome. I waited a bit during the evening, and when no one else started a new thread, I went ahead and did it myself (hope I did it right--it has not been pinned yet as of the time of this posting).

As to the incest/polygamy question, maybe I am just being stubborn because I think the evidence for a marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna is so strong, but I just don't see Jaehaerys enacting laws that would make his own grandparents marriage essentially illegal (as his grandmother was Aegon I's second wife). It just does not make sense to me that Jaehaerys would enact a law that in some sense called into question his own father's legitimacy. Who does that unless absolutely forced to do so--and the text suggests that the unified code was not done to appease the Faith--but rather to write down the laws so that people had a reference point rather than mere local custom as their guide for the law.

And on the question of outlawing incest--that would call into question his own marriage, his children's marriage, his grandparent's marriage. And if he is trying to appease the Faith, I am not sure outlawing polygamy while keeping incest legal would really be seen as all that accommodating. The Uprising was over incest and not polygamy--specifically, the marriage of his older brother to his older sister. The Faith ultimately lost that war--and I don't see Jaehaerys essentially enacting laws that would seem to suggest that the Faith were justified in their actions by making illegal what they went to war to try to make illegal. That would amount to capitulation after having won. I know he is the "Great Conciliator" but I don't think he is the "Great Appeaser."

This, as well. You just don't allow your ancestors to be slandered in such a way.

I also wanna shoot down the idea that polygamy is "something very Targaryen." Two of them did it, both a long time ago. People thought it was weird when Aegon did it, and Maegor was an insane tyrant who desperately wanted an heir.

Daenys the Dreamer's father, the one who moved to Dragonstone, also had multiple wives. But when Aegon married Rhaenys, it was said that this was considered unusual, so the practice was never really widespread in the first place.

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It is important to keep in mind that the Faith hated polygamy more than incest. Maegor could not find a Septon who was willing to perform a polygamous marriage, but Jaehaerys and Alysanne were able to get a Septon to

perform an incestuous marriage, as were many other Targs.

I agree with most everything else you said, but that's not really proof that the Faith hated polygamy more than incest. For one thing the Faith was more independent back when Aenys was king and Maegor was looking for a Septon.

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It is important to keep in mind that the Faith hated polygamy more than incest. Maegor could not find a Septon who was willing to perform a polygamous marriage, but Jaehaerys and Alysanne were able to get a Septon to

perform an incestuous marriage, as were many other Targs.

Also, if the Conciliator wanted to make some concession to the Faith, outlawing polygamy was the smart thing to do. He could not outlaw incest without voiding his own marriage.

And it is telling that polygamy stopped around the time Jaehaerys set out his laws.

Set against that, we have a theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. The support for this, as I understand it, is:

1. the Kingsguard at the TOJ, which has other good explanations

2. Mormont's Raven called Jon "King," but only after Robb's will named him King in the North

3. a belief that Lyanna would not have agreed to be a royal mistress, despite the similarities between her and Melissa Blackwood (Royal mistresses honored by their families with a statue whose bastard sons went on to be LC of the Night's Watch).

That said, just because polygamy was illegal does not mean Rhaegar didn't try it, just like First Night is illegal but Roose still does it and just hides it. But it does mean the validity of such a marriage would be very questionable.

I do not believe that you are correct about the Faith hating polygamy more than incest. The Uprising was about incest--the marriage of the king's eldest two children to each other. No polygamy was involved in the source of the biggest and most violent dispute between the Faith and the Targs.

The book says what concession was made to the Faith--a promise to always support and defend the Faith. There was no need or reason to give any other concession--the Faith lost the war. They were in no position to extract concessions.

Polygamy likely stopped after the unified code for other reasons. Culturally, polygamy was not favored and created political problems, as the family of the first wife generally gets upset. The better explanation from a literary point of view is that GRRM wants to keep people from figuring out that Rhaegar would consider polygamy an option. If polygamy kept going strong, the clues in favor of the marriage between R&L would be too obvious. But the two SSMs generally cited regarding polygamy (one discussing Maegor's wives and the other discussing the decline in polygamy after Maegor) make no mention of polygamy becoming illegal and by implication suggest polygamy never did.

You also are missing the new information about the continued acceptance of "salt wives" among the IB, whose children were considered legitimate--only possible if polygamy is legal.

And the biggest clue, in my opinion, is that Jon is the Prince that was promised, not the Bastard that was promised.

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I don't see this as analogous. I don't know whether we have any evidence that the Targs engaged in first night rights--but even if they did, it is not as central to their identity. It is particular act they might have taken at a time when it was an accepted act. That is completely different than undermining the entire basis for his legitimacy and acknowledging that his grandparents should not have been allowed to get married.

Yeah that's why I said might. Glydayn seems to imply that some Targaryens did but there's no evidence that Aegon did. I'd rather think he didn't. You really think polygamy is central to the Targaryens identity? I don't think that by changing Westerosi law Jaehaerys would be acknowledging that his grandparents should not have been allowed to get married. They weren't even married in Westeros or by Westerosi customs

It is possible that he thought it was the best thing to do, but we have no evidence one way or the other regarding his thoughts on polygamy. We know he continued the practice of marrying brother to sister. While I understand these practices arguably had opposite political implications (one resulted in fewer claimants and the other in increased claimants), the problem with Maegor was not really a problem with polygamy--it was a problem with Maegor (he was a really bad buy).

They had a very important reason to continue the practice of marrying brother to sister: maintaining control of their dragons. There was no similar reason to continue polygamy as it had only caused problems. Yes if Maegor hadn't been a power hungry monster things wouldn't have gotten so bad. Still it goes back to the idea that "too many dragons are as dangerous as too few" and that people are more likely to fight with their half siblings than full siblings.

Well, he could implicitly take a side by remaining silent. If, for example, polygamy was legal in the Reach--it would not be legal because there was a writing anywhere that said "Polygamy is legal." There just want no law against it. Jaehaerys merely needs to leave the issue of polygamy out of the "unified code" and thereby it is legal (if something is not listed as illegal, then it is legal). So he could remain silent--which would be taking a side, just not in a way that was very public or noticeable, perhaps.

Well I think it would be noticeable to the people of the other kingdoms who (hypothetically) have laws against polygamy.

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Yeah that's why I said might. Glydayn seems to imply that some Targaryens did but there's no evidence that Aegon did. I'd rather think he didn't. You really think polygamy is central to the Targaryens identity? I don't think that by changing Westerosi law Jaehaerys would be acknowledging that his grandparents should not have been allowed to get married. They weren't even married in Westeros or by Westerosi customs

They had a very important reason to continue the practice of marrying brother to sister: maintaining control of their dragons. There was no similar reason to continue polygamy as it had only caused problems. Yes if Maegor hadn't been a power hungry monster things wouldn't have gotten so bad. Still it goes back to the idea that "too many dragons are as dangerous as too few" and that people are more likely to fight with their half siblings than full siblings.

Well I think it would be noticeable to the people of the other kingdoms who (hypothetically) have laws against polygamy.

I think what our exchange has demonstrated is how good GRRM is at putting together these clues. There are clues on both sides and people can examine the clues and some are convinced one way and some are convinced the other way. Eventually, presumably, GRRM will reveal who read the clues correctly. I suppose if the evidence was so unequivocal that all reasonable people saw the evidence only one way, the story would not be nearly as interesting. As usual, on this issue, we continue to agree to disagree.

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I think what our exchange has demonstrated is how good GRRM is at putting together these clues. There are clues on both sides and people can examine the clues and some are convinced one way and some are convinced the other way. Eventually, presumably, GRRM will reveal who read the clues correctly. I suppose if the evidence was so unequivocal that all reasonable people saw the evidence only one way, the story would not be nearly as interesting. As usual, on this issue, we continue to agree to disagree.

Yeah. In the end my theory probably isn't correct, but it's always fun discussing it.

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I am very curious about that whole Pact of Ice and Fire thing and the idea that there has not been a prior Stark-Targaryen union. I think that is something Rhaegar would have been very interested in, assuming he learned of it, and why wouldn't he since it was part of his history and he was interested in all of that. Seems that would appeal to him.



Though I am not a fan of the idea, the passages about Alysanne and Jahaerys and how well they worked together and how good it was for the realm made me think of Jon and Dany when I was reading that part.


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I am very curious about that whole Pact of Ice and Fire thing and the idea that there has not been a prior Stark-Targaryen union. I think that is something Rhaegar would have been very interested in, assuming he learned of it, and why wouldn't he since it was part of his history and he was interested in all of that. Seems that would appeal to him.

Though I am not a fan of the idea, the passages about Alysanne and Jahaerys and how well they worked together and how good it was for the realm made me think of Jon and Dany when I was reading that part.

Yes, BQ87 and I have been particularly excited by that revelation about the Pact of Ice and Fire given that we were the loudest voices arguing that at some point Rhaegar realized that his child with Lyanna--and not Aegon--would be the Prince that was Promised because Lyanna was Ice to his Fire (and their child would be A Song of Ice and Fire, personified). The Pact of Ice and Fire gives an additional clue that we might have been correct. Rhaegar, being a student of Targ history, almost certainly knew about the Pact of Ice and Fire. Critical to the analysis, as well, is that the pact never happened and thus there are no other offspring of Targ/Stark, so Jon would be the first union of Ice and Fire.

I am not sure how Alysanne and Jaehaery are relevant to the theory. They were brother and sister and married. Jon and Dany (assuming RLJ) are nephew and aunt, and I don't think they will get married (and if they do, it won't be the kind of long lived marriage between Alyssane and Jaehaerys). I am a believer, however, that Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the 3 heads of the dragon, and in the end, all three will work together to win the Battle for the Dawn.

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I think what our exchange has demonstrated is how good GRRM is at putting together these clues. There are clues on both sides and people can examine the clues and some are convinced one way and some are convinced the other way. Eventually, presumably, GRRM will reveal who read the clues correctly. I suppose if the evidence was so unequivocal that all reasonable people saw the evidence only one way, the story would not be nearly as interesting. As usual, on this issue, we continue to agree to disagree.

Very well said, I agree with this.

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Simply told I don't think that Jon Snow got a picture about him for nothing in this book...

Also, of all the current stories' characters he and Dany are the only ones to get a picture.

It is a history book, but we get plenty of names and faces. The Fall of Dragons picture I rather liked, Aerys II and 2 KG, Rhaegar in armor, Lyanna, Ned, Brandon, Robert I think holding back Brandon, Elia and is that Ashara next to her or...? Though everyone looks older than I imagined well the Starks anyway and Robert who is what 18 at the time but still, I like the scene. Arya Rhaegar on page 127 hardcover looking very royal and Emo, Robert. In the north section, if you look closely you will see a wold on a Lannister helmet and what looks like a rat tail or length of hair sticking out from it. Ser Elmo got a pic, yes thee Ser Elmo. Tywin on multiple occasions, Duncan the Tall, Egg, Small, we have a Bolton, no wait not a Bolton a woman of the thousand Islands, a reasonable mistake. Hyrkoon the Matata, we have the Cone Heads on Zorses, Asshai 9boogy boogy boogy so scary), Dany with the Trips, love the fact that Yendal got that one in there.

We get the family trees which are not actually part of the book but something for the fans, an Index, the Twins, and some kid with his red eyed hell hound of no importance to the story and Finally Robert the great and Rhaegar the confused and cruel.

So if I read this correctly the pictures at the end go like this, Dany, Twins, Jon and Rhaegar and Robert. So the secret clue is Dany and Jon are the twins of Rhaegar and Robert and here they are fighting over custody.

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So if I read this correctly the pictures at the end go like this, Dany, Twins, Jon and Rhaegar and Robert. So the secret clue is Dany and Jon are the twins of Rhaegar and Robert and here they are fighting over custody.

Brilliant

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So if I read this correctly the pictures at the end go like this, Dany, Twins, Jon and Rhaegar and Robert. So the secret clue is Dany and Jon are the twins of Rhaegar and Robert and here they are fighting over custody.

:lol: . I think you've cracked the code :cool4:

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