R+L=J v.112

[butterbumps!]

A very unlikely occurrence.

I'm not saying Rickard wouldn't accept it if it was presented to him as a done deal. I'm saying it is obviously second best to a Stark-Baratheon monarchy.

Yea, I agree that if Rhaegar believed that the Houses were going to overthrow them and raise a Stark-Baratheon dynasty, then his offer might look weak (pre-secret marriage and pregnancy) in comparison.

But I'm with J Star that this would be far less costly, and more certain a promotion than the bigger honeypot achieved via rebellion.

@ Snowfyre--

I'm with you on there still being a major twist to Jon's parentage. I know we talked about this on the other side, but I still think the larger twist to this is that it doesn't mean that R+L=King Jon Targ (as opposed to the twists being Jon's having non R+L parents). That there's no such thing as the rightful heir, that people won't care or believe he's Rhaegar's legit son, that remaining a neutral LC of the Watch is actually Jon's ticket to a following (and a better path to kingship, if one wants to go there), and that Jon's character will choose to remain a "bastard" is where this twist resides.

[sj4iy]

Agreed. Which is one reason I feel that R+L=J is not a sure thing... because Martin dropped his clues so, so early in the story. If that's the exciting solution to the mystery of Jon's parentage, then by the time we get to it, it seems practically no reveal at all. And as you say, Jon's parentage is not fluid. So if R+L=J is incorrect, it's probably worth looking for clues to alternative solutions.

As someone else said, this was supposed to be a trilogy. Of course he was going to set all of that up in the first book if he thought he was only going to write three of them.

If it were a red herring, he could have countered all of those in the four novels since. Instead, everything he subsequently wrote SUPPORTS all of the clues in first book. "It's too obvious" isn't reason enough to discount something. You just admitted that there were a lot of clues early on for R+L=J. If you want to DISPROVE it, you'll need more than anecdotes about 'obviousness'. Show us facts. Give us quotes. Give us a timeline, and how things fit together. Show us something definitive and people will listen to your theory. If you don't think it's a 'sure thing', then feel free to debate what specifically you are unsure of. Factual, not generalities.

I really don't think that's terribly difficult if someone truly disbelieves R+L=J. Surely they would be able to point out what specifically the facts that they find troubling about it.

[wolfmaid7]

I think the Alfie Allen argument has been the most abused, misinterpreted interview in recent ASoIaF history. But if you read it, he actually starts trailing off into talking about the Targaryen dynasty right after saying that GRRM told him about Jon's parents.

Yeah i've read it and saw his whole speal on the war of the roses and Targ incest. I'm not disputing that. In fact and i will put that just to clarify my point. I have little doubt Jon's father is a Targ and that's all i admit i got. I admit without shame that i'm honestly not 100% sure that Rheagar is Jon's dad,part of which has to do with the Woods witch prophecy and actually how long that "breeding program" has been going on.

[wolfmaid7]

Yea, I agree that if Rhaegar believed that the Houses were going to overthrow them and raise a Stark-Baratheon dynasty, then his offer might look weak (pre-secret marriage and pregnancy) in comparison.

But I'm with J Star that this would be far less costly, and more certain a promotion than the bigger honeypot achieved via rebellion.

@ Snowfyre--

I'm with you on there still being a major twist to Jon's parentage. I know we talked about this on the other side, but I still think the larger twist to this is that it doesn't mean that R+L=King Jon Targ (as opposed to the twists being Jon's having non R+L parents). That there's no such thing as the rightful heir, that people won't care or believe he's Rhaegar's legit son, that remaining a neutral LC of the Watch is actually Jon's ticket to a following (and a better path to kingship, if one wants to go there), and that Jon's character will choose to remain a "bastard" is where this twist resides.

I hold this to be the case myself.

[J. Stargaryen]

Yeah i've read it and saw his whole speal on the war of the roses and Targ incest. I'm not disputing that. In fact and i will put that just to clarify my point. I have little doubt Jon's father is a Targ and that's all i admit i got. I admit without shame that i'm honestly not 100% sure that Rheagar is Jon's dad,part of which has to do with the Woods witch prophecy and actually how long that "breeding program" has been going on.

In that case, just follow the trail of Lyanna's blue roses. It leads back to Rhaegar and the Harrenhal tourney.

[JonSnow4President]

In that case, just follow the trail of Lyanna's blue roses. It leads back to Rhaegar and the Harrenhal tourney.

Well, I think we can safely say that Aemon is the Targaryen that fathered Jon then.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

@ Snowfyre--

I'm with you on there still being a major twist to Jon's parentage. I know we talked about this on the other side, but I still think the larger twist to this is that it doesn't mean that R+L=King Jon Targ (as opposed to the twists being Jon's having non R+L parents). That there's no such thing as the rightful heir, that people won't care or believe he's Rhaegar's legit son, that remaining a neutral LC of the Watch is actually Jon's ticket to a following (and a better path to kingship, if one wants to go there), and that Jon's character will choose to remain a "bastard" is where this twist resides.

Right. And I definitely see that as a reasonable guess at one way this could wrap up for Jon. There's a lot I like about that idea, myself - and I've argued for it before (though perhaps without your particular nuance). As I said just a few posts upthread, I'm not entirely against the idea that "R+L=J," and clearly there's a lot to support the theory. I do remain unconvinced, in spite of J.Stargaryen's disbelief. And I think it's worthwhile to continue testing out other ideas. As I've pointed out here, and highlighted elsewhere - it's a giant red flag to me that, in spite of the fact that "it is known" to everyone in Westeros that Lyanna was kidnapped and screwed by Rhaegar Tarygaryen, George R. R. Martin himself makes extraordinary efforts to preserve the silence of his text with respect to what actually happened. Five books into the series, and one "untold history of Westeros" later... he has yet to provide any direct confirmation that Rhaegar Targaryen ever actually laid hands on Lyanna Stark. I think that's amazing... and not an easy thing to do. So I think, for those who continue to read and reread these books, it probably couldn't hurt to consider alternatives for Jon Snow's parentage.