Shocking Truth: Dawn could not have been made before the Andal Invasion

[Mithras]

Sword shapes and dimensions were always limited by the material. Neither bronze nor early low quality iron can be used to make great swords. Such a construction was impossible and unknown during the Bronze Age.

Only after people learned to control the smelting process to produce steel with reliable properties, new designs started to emerge and swords became longer.

Meteoric iron can be used to make a great sword. But during a period in which neither regular steel suitable to make great swords nor any concept of great sword at all existed, we cannot expect a great sword to be made.

[dbunting]

Really? This is the one thing you choose to be critical of? Not super human dwarves, magical people who see the world through trees and animals, dragons, etc?

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Or, you know, GRRM fucked up with the world building.

[Julia Martell]

Or, you know, it's magic.

[Ser Ious Woodmont]

You're right. A sword like Dawn is totally impossible to make in that era with the available techniques. Now it's like Dawn belongs in some kind of fantasy novel, instead of the historical fiction that is ASOIAF. A shame.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

You are right. It's not like Dawn is a unique-even-in-Westeros sword which could had easily been forged with magic or that it could be the sword of the Savior. :thumbsup:

[The Santa of House Claus]

You're right. A sword like Dawn is totally impossible to make in that era with the available techniques. Now it's like Dawn belongs in some kind of fantasy novel, instead of the historical fiction that is ASOIAF. A shame.

:cheers:

[Lord Lannister]

Magic ex machina.

[yolkboy]

Sword shapes and dimensions were always limited by the material. Neither bronze nor early low quality iron can be used to make great swords. Such a construction was impossible and unknown during the Bronze Age.

First Men pre-Andal were in the Iron Age. Old Nan says Others hated iron, and the Iron Islands were named so pre-Andal (we know of families with Iron in their name from that era). This means iron is a first men word.

Just because Andals were doing their thing with iron, it doesn't mean another culture hadn't already got there. This bronze age talk is an assumption, and one that seems to be wrong.

There's also evidence of a form of steel being around in the Long Night, dragonsteel - which was presumably named so because of some similarity with steel.

[Kienn]

Just because we don't have examples of bronze great swords doesnt mean no one tried to make them.

Maybe Dawn's smith had been trying to make bigger swords for a while and was glad to finally be able to.

This post is like someone from the future saying Zunes didn't exist because they can't find any.

[sarah.jenice]

I think magic makes anything George needs to be possible, possible.

We also hear time and time again that the recordings of Westerosi history are not reliable so the Long Night and the Andal invasion could be a lot more recent than believed.

[Consigliere]

This is a fantasy series not a textbook on metallurgy. Dawn will be as old as GRRM needs it to be.

[Mithras]

One cannot say "magic" and solve this problem. Of course George can do whatever he want but if he muckes up, we should be free to criticize it.

If anything, I think Dawn might actually be the Just Maid (the sword of Ser Galladon of Morne). It is a post-Andal legend rooted in Tarth where Evenstar kings ruled once. Starfall vs. Evenfall Hall. Ser Galladon of Morne vs. Sword of the Morning.

There's also evidence of a form of steel being around in the Long Night, dragonsteel - which was presumably named so because of some similarity with steel.

The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later.

Dragonsteel is a mistranslation done by the Andals thousands of years later. Steel didnot exist back then. It is a glaring example of anachronism.

[N/A]

Fantasy ... you know what it means ?

[yolkboy]

One cannot say "magic" and solve this problem. Of course George can do whatever he want but if he muckes up, we should be free to criticize it.

If anything, I think Dawn might actually be the Just Maid (the sword of Ser Galladon of Morne). It is a post-Andal legend rooted in Tarth where Evenstar kings ruled once. Starfall vs. Evenfall Hall. Ser Galladon of Morne vs. Sword of the Morning.

The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later.

Dragonsteel is a mistranslation done by the Andals thousands of years later. Steel didnot exist back then. It is a glaring example of anachronism.

Sorry, this is exactly my point - it was named as dragonsteel in hindsight. Rather than being a mistranslation, I'm suggesting that it was purposefully named so. Please don't claim this 'mistranslation' to be a fact, because it isn't.

I'm not sure how you can argue that anachronism's can't exist in this magical story where people can see into the future. Dawn is already an anachronism, it's at least a couple of thousands of years old, and by the account we have of Jaime getting knighted, it seems seems sharper than Valyrian Steel - and in terrific shape.

[Juan_Snow]

First Men pre-Andal were in the Iron Age. Old Nan says Others hated iron, and the Iron Islands were named so pre-Andal (we know of families with Iron in their name from that era). This means iron is a first men word.

Just because Andals were doing their thing with iron, it doesn't mean another culture hadn't already got there. This bronze age talk is an assumption, and one that seems to be wrong.

There's also evidence of a form of steel being around in the Long Night, dragonsteel - which was presumably named so because of some similarity with steel.

Boom!

[TallTyrion]

One cannot say "magic" and solve this problem. Of course George can do whatever he want but if he muckes up, we should be free to criticize it.

If anything, I think Dawn might actually be the Just Maid (the sword of Ser Galladon of Morne). It is a post-Andal legend rooted in Tarth where Evenstar kings ruled once. Starfall vs. Evenfall Hall. Ser Galladon of Morne vs. Sword of the Morning.

The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later.

Dragonsteel is a mistranslation done by the Andals thousands of years later. Steel didnot exist back then. It is a glaring example of anachronism.

You really can though as magic is already used as an explanation for impossibly strong and light steel (Valyrian) in the story.

Problem: Valyrian Steel is too thin to be as strong as it is. (Tyrion mentions this when observing Widow's Wail and Oath Keeper)

Solution: Spell forged steel (aka magic)

[Pox Americana]

The First Men were in their bronze age when they crossed the Arm. They didn't stay that way though. Iron Age smiths were certainly capable of creating greatswords, even by your own admission from meteoric iron alloys which have wild X factors that could grant some measure of steel like quality regardless of forging techniques. You might have had to stop and straighten it every now and then, but read Roman accounts of the Celts and you'll find exactly that.

Dawn is clearly an allusion to something like the sword of Atila, while Valyrian Steel is just your standard fantasy trope metal. It doesn't have to be reasonable, even though it describes something that isn't unbelievable. The truth is, humanity has lost most of its history. It takes an iron weapon less than 100 years to rust away if buried. Bronze is better at staying, but imagine how many peoples'-- how many generations, no less, of smithing techniques have been lost because no type model exists in the current records? There could be something revolutionary out there just waiting to be found.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

^^ Agreed. In our world, the Iron Age started at different times in different place, while even in some locations where the age of Iron is reckoned to have begun, the use of Bronze persisted for many centuries (i.e. in Europe, the Iron Age is dated to c.1200 BC, while the Bronze Age is said to have ended c.600 BC) In other words, the discovery of ironworking in one place or another did not cause everyone to simultaneously cast down their bronze weapons and armor.

Casting doubt on what we "know" there is the precedent of the Iron Islands in Westeros, which name predates Andal arrival and where iron mines were a key part of their economy. Then there is the tale of the crown of the Kings of Winter (who also predate the Andal arrival) which is said to have been of bronze and iron spikes. Ancient iron swords in the WF crypts, mentions of both iron and steel in the legends of the Long Night etc etc... and of course magic. It seems there is plenty of reason to question the accepted wisdom that iron did not exist in Westeros before the Andals arrived (who themselves did not discover the use of it, but rather learned it from another culture) and therefore the conclusion that the First Men were purely a Bronze Age culture. Taken altogether we cannot accept that advanced metal working could not have existed in Westeros pre-Andal for exactly this reason:

The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later.

[Slowpoke Martin]

One cannot say "magic" and solve this problem. Of course George can do whatever he want but if he muckes up, we should be free to criticize it.

The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later.

Dragonsteel is a mistranslation done by the Andals thousands of years later. Steel didnot exist back then. It is a glaring example of anachronism.

If anything, this shows that knowledge of the past is completely twisted since there are no reliable sources of history from that time peroid.

Dawn can easily have been made from an advanced method, but because it was not recorded does not mean it did not happen.

The past is clearly based on perspective more than anything in this fantasy world. The truth is twisted and written history is more belief of what may be real.