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Shocking Truth: Dawn could not have been made before the Andal Invasion


Mithras

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This is a fantasy series not a textbook on metallurgy. Dawn will be as old as GRRM needs it to be.

Agreed. Also does anyone else think that if Lightbringer did in fact exist, as a forged sword, that it could be Dawn? The Daynes are arguably the oldest family in Westeros and that sword is pre-valyrian steel era. Plus dawn is the coming of the rising son, in a literal sense. Lightbringer and Dawn are both named very similarly as swords that bring light to darkness. Idk just some food for thought.

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Here is a good read about the chronology of swords. As you can see, great swords are late inventions and they were created in response to the advancing armor technology. That is why Dawn-like swords cannot be expected to be forged without advanced armor technology. If the First Men were able to think/create swords like that, then the Andal Invasion should have been repulsed back.





Sorry, this is exactly my point - it was named as dragonsteel in hindsight. Rather than being a mistranslation, I'm suggesting that it was purposefully named so. Please don't claim this 'mistranslation' to be a fact, because it isn't.



I'm not sure how you can argue that anachronism's can't exist in this magical story where people can see into the future. Dawn is already an anachronism, it's at least a couple of thousands of years old, and by the account we have of Jaime getting knighted, it seems seems sharper than Valyrian Steel - and in terrific shape.





When I said mistranslation, I meant this is a coined term because of the lack of understanding what really happened thousands of years ago.



I am not claiming that Dawn is not a magical sword. I am just saying that this sword cannot be made before the Andal Invasion.



The SSM strengthens my point because George avoided giving a definite birth year for Dawn. He only confirmed that Dawn existed throughout the Andal era.


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Eh, for all we know Dawn could have been made by blacksmiths from Essos. I agree that the First Men most likely didn't forge it, but the Daynes doesn't exactly look like First Men. They could well have been migrants from Essos, or have Essosi migrants marry into the family at some point.


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Here is a good read about the chronology of swords. As you can see, great swords are late inventions and they were created in response to the advancing armor technology. That is why Dawn-like swords cannot be expected to be forged without advanced armor technology. If the First Men were able to think/create swords like that, then the Andal Invasion should have been repulsed back.
wat


Greatswords can be expected to be forged without advanced armor technology if its advancing counter to it. Weapon advancement moves faster than armor and always has, not only that, but we have folks who used greatswords but didn't fight in armor at all. The Highland clans were famous for just that. The First Men obviously did use armor, as evidenced by House Royce's heirloom, but we're given little in the way of details as a whole.



Secondly, you can't just write off an "Andal Invasion" as a singular event that's even able to be repulsed back. There were probably multiple, compounding pushes with multiple origin points, the most notable being the Vale. This may be inspired by The Norman Conquest, but this ain't the isles, this is Westoros. It's huge. Even if you could, it's still the First Men's Iron Age vs. The Andals Steel.


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For all we know, the greenseers/bloodmages/wizards/whatever who forged Dawn had been creating swords made of magical materials for thousands of years before regular smiths were able to do the same with mundane metals. Or maybe they were able to peek into the future and copy sword-forging tech still to be discovered. Or maybe there was a precursor civilization that had steel weaponry before the rise of Humanity.

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Really? This is the one thing you choose to be critical of? Not super human dwarves, magical people who see the world through trees and animals, dragons, etc?

Or, you know, GRRM fucked up with the world building.

Or, you know, it's magic.

You're right. A sword like Dawn is totally impossible to make in that era with the available techniques. Now it's like Dawn belongs in some kind of fantasy novel, instead of the historical fiction that is ASOIAF. A shame.

You are right. It's not like Dawn is a unique-even-in-Westeros sword which could had easily been forged with magic or that it could be the sword of the Savior. :thumbsup:

First Men pre-Andal were in the Iron Age. Old Nan says Others hated iron, and the Iron Islands were named so pre-Andal (we know of families with Iron in their name from that era). This means iron is a first men word.

Just because Andals were doing their thing with iron, it doesn't mean another culture hadn't already got there. This bronze age talk is an assumption, and one that seems to be wrong.

There's also evidence of a form of steel being around in the Long Night, dragonsteel - which was presumably named so because of some similarity with steel.

This is a fantasy series not a textbook on metallurgy. Dawn will be as old as GRRM needs it to be.

Fantasy ... you know what it means ?

all of the things

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Yeah, I'm 100% on board with Westerosi history being fundamentally unreliable, and all sort of things being newer than their think, older than they think, or completely made up. Regarding Dawn specifically, though, I hardly could care less. So far, it became a minor MacGuffin for twelve seconds fifteen years ago, bringing the Ned to Starfall. It could be a knockoff made in Yi Ti from cheapest alloys available, for all I care.


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One cannot say "magic" and solve this problem.

Yes, actually you can. Name one mechanical or technical difficulty that cannot in some way be overcome by "magic".

Fire not hot enough? Cast my spell to make the fire hotter. Etc.

The transition from bronze age to iron age is a matter of understanding how to create steel from iron. If "meteoric iron" was used, and no special process was needed to use the meteoric iron that a bronze age smith/wizard did not already know, then there is no problem.

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I don't believe Westeros history is reliable past a few centuries in the past. And nobles love to claim their line goes back to super-ancient- awesome-legendary eras.



Wouldn't be surprised if the Sword Dawn was a helluva younger than it is claimed to be.



Fighting styles evolve over time and It'd be damn weird if Arthur Dayne was using (with great success!) a sword designed to accomodate a bronze age culture.


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The Seastone Chair was already on the island when the First Men came across it. We don't know who built it or what race used it.



Same can be said for Dawn. The story we know is that it was forged from the heart of a fallen star.



It could very well be that there was another special race of humans, similar to the Valyrians somewhere else...and also experienced a catastrophic doom...Dawn could have been left from that race...and the story has changed some through the generations.



I wouldn't get hung up on it.


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Dawn is a magical sword. As far as we know, it could be Lightbringer. The names are related and the description is mildly comparable: "The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light." No known sword comes closer to Lightbringer description. The sword may just need activation, or Lightbringer properties are overstated.



As far as we know, Dawn could have been made by a Hero with the assistance of a god. Technology standards do not need to apply.


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