Sci-2 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Disagreed, Triskele certainly deserves it. The reference to wretched also applies perfectly to him. +1. Fuck that Trisk guy. ;-) eta: If Earwa is the lynchpin of the Inward, could the world be a Ciphrang trapped in its own dream of the universe? So the "God" is much less than the dreamer of all the Outside? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 MSJ, I think the question is, are you just apologizing because you thought your tone was rude or do you actually take back the substantive argument that you made? Yeah, I mean at one point MSJ actually accused people of speculating, which is obviously beyond rude and cannot be brushed under the rug with a simple apology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Confirmed. I was certainly riffing off of the concept you were exploring in the previous thread. It's no worries. Just know that I was not attacking you personally. You should check out the US politics threads. I actually take care to let folks know when I'm personally attacking them. :) (cause it's pretty rare, but sometimes warranted)I know you wasn't. Like I said. Bad day personally and was venting on people that don't even know me. Its sad, I know. Just know I was being a baby, an childish and why I would ever take my frustrations out on you is beyond me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Seswatha Jordan Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 MSJ, I think the question is, are you just apologizing because you thought your tone was rude or do you actually take back the substantive argument that you made?Yes because my tone and being an ass. That's not how I act on b here. And of course about speculating, that's what these threads are for, no? Look, I was taken offense where none should have been taken. While having a really, really bad day and shouldn't have acted the way I did. Complaining of no interaction and such. I was just being a huge crybaby and I'm apologizing for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 to make a wild guess, perhaps they're blind to those who have seen the Inverse Fire? That seems plausible. Maybe due to the time ‘gimmicks’ those who’ve seen the IF are experiencing damnation in the Outisde as we speak, so to the Gods they’re just dead. Regarding Theliopa, she's only restating the Mandate's position on the matter. I'm inclined to question the Gods being blind to the No-God as well. It seems almost incomprehensible to me that the Goddess of Birth would somehow miss a period of years where *all* babies were stillborn. Maybe she was blind to that entire period? My understanding is that while the NG walked the world was partially closed to the Outside in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Apology accepted I guess, though personally I really don't think it's a big deal. @Sci-2, I agree that the Nonmen path of Oblivion might be the only way to freedom without upending the entire system. And your idea for how Khellus might use this to free the world sounds very plausible. I wonder if the Nonmen path failed precisely because they conceived of it as a Self ruggedly walking into dissolution (perhaps this practice produced Wights?) Rather one has to realize the Self is illusory, just a refraction of the Mind of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 That’s supposing that it did fail. The Nonmen could’ve been not damned in general until the Tusk and the Five Tribes came. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 That’s supposing that it did fail. The Nonmen could’ve been not damned in general until the Tusk and the Five Tribes came. I thought Bakker said damnation/salvation is not tied to what community you're in or who you're surrounded by? He did say there is a right way to believe on Earwa, though what that actually means is unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Isn't it true that according to the Tusk all Nonmen are damned for being 'false men', which was the Inchoroi's 'devious addition'? In the meeting between Kellhus and the emissary they say that the Nonmen are damned 'as false Men' because they worship the spaces between the Gods. So is it possible that the Nonmen were not actually damned for worshiping the spaces between the Gods, but that was just Inchoroi bullshit used to incite the Five Tribes of Men against them? As for the right and wrong way to worship. Maybe it is like in some religions on earth were the right way to worship is to follow the teachings of the last prophet to arrive? Meaning that Inrithism was correct until Fane came along? This is similar to islamic teachings were Jesus is the prophet who preceded Mohammad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I know this is basically full on crackpot at this time, but: I still am holding out that all the religious stuff turns out to just be Cishaurim style magic, human/Inchie/Cunoroi constructs, that any god intervention (all the Yatwer stuff) is more like Ciphrang, and that damnation isn't real. Maybe this is just because I don't think I get the point of Bakker saying that he wanted to create a world where damnation was objective and real... I guess my issue with it is the same is if someone claimed that about our world: how the fuck the characters actually know damnation is legit or not? They wouldn't, it would be just a bunch of hocus-pocus mumbojumbo. Even the Inverse Fire. It's just some really persuasive shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I guess my issue with it is the same is if someone claimed that about our world: how the fuck the characters actually know damnation is legit or not?That's an interesting epistemic question, I think. How do the Inchies know the Inverse Fire is real? How does Kellhus know that the God and the No-God speak to him? The answer on damnation that we've been given so far is that it is something that people can actually experience. You can experience the Outside and have evidence of it. It might be weird and confusing and bizarre, but you can experience it. With the Judging Eye you can see the morality of the world, the ordering. Now, you could assume that all of this is unreal and just another layer of illusion, I guess. But what's the point? There are so many things pointing to 'this is real' that it's clearly there. The main characters still act as if damnation is possibly real or not; some are pious, some are mocking, some are in between. As HE said, what if the notion of subjective justice is just overruled over a completely shitty objective one? So what if damnation were real? What if you could see it and feel it? Would it change how you behave? Would the promise of everlasting suffering be enough to delay a human's instant gratification? Would a partial understanding make anyone change their desire to turn what information they had into something that benefited them, and then use that to lie to themselves? What is the difference between the rational actor who denies the existence of God even though there is visible proof God exists, and the rational actor who denies the existence of God with only faith to lead people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 Maybe this is just because I don't think I get the point of Bakker saying that he wanted to create a world where damnation was objective and real... I guess my issue with it is the same is if someone claimed that about our world: how the fuck the characters actually know damnation is legit or not? They wouldn't, it would be just a bunch of hocus-pocus mumbojumbo. Even the Inverse Fire. It's just some really persuasive shit. They wouldn't know for sure, but they can still be impossibly certain of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 8, 2014 Share Posted November 8, 2014 It’s been some time since I’ve read TTT... After Cnaiür tells Akka the truth about Kel, does Achamian then tell that truth to Esmi before he leaves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Thanks. That brings up the question of whether the women in Ishuäl are just that, broodmares. the prospect of meeting Jeükal frightened him: he was one of the Pragma, the senior brethren of the Dûnyain, and meetings between such men and young boys usually resulted in anguish for the latter. The anguish of trial and revelation. This line seems to suggest it, but then there is that quote from Bakker about them playing a big role or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 the prospect of meeting Jeükal frightened him: he was one of the Pragma, the senior brethren of the Dûnyain, and meetings between such men and young boys usually resulted in anguish for the latter. The anguish of trial and revelation. I don't expect to find that many women among the 'brethren'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Can’t find it now but I thought he was clearly referring to women in Ishual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I don't expect to find that many women among the 'brethren'. I don't expect to find any surviving Dunyain at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I'm wondering if the unmasking room will still have survivors. Simply because it'd be as freaky as fuck for them to find that. But yeah, kinda fairly unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Can't find it now but I thought he was clearly referring to women in Ishual.This is the Q&A that you're referring to?I am also wondering about women among the Dunyain. I don't have my books now, but when they arrive at the fortress in the north, there are women amongst them and the group has survived. But, we have yet to see any through Kelhus's recollections. I am very nervous about this, especially after seeing the face room. I would dread stumbling on a mating room. Who and where is Kelhus's mother? If he has the concept of Father and has a dialogue going with him in his head, why is any thought of a mother totally absent? Basically, I wonder about gender relations and roles amongst the Dunyain...RSB: I'd like to go into the question of the Dunyain and gender, but believe it or not, the issue has a significant role to play in the greater story of the Second Apocalypse.Also,I'm afraid the mystery of the 'Dunyain feminine' doesn't come to the fore until The Aspect-Emperor,I definitely don't think he's talking about Serwa. Aside from the fact that not one of questions above is settled through the coming of Serwa, if this is the 'mystery of the Dunyain feminine' - that Kellhus can have daughters - then Bakker must have a real shitty definition of 'mystery'. I'm not sure if those two issues are even related; like I said, all the questions regarding gender dynamics among the Dunyain - which is to say among the Dûnyain in Ishuäl - still stand, and I think that Bakker has to answer at least some of them since he has deliberately avoided any mention of women in Kellhus' flashbacks.Honestly, this insistence that there won't be any more info given about the Dunyain because 'we already know everything of value' is kind of baffling. Especially now since the only person here who read TUC has confirmed that there will be. Let alone the fact that Bakker has said outright. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sToNED_CAT Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Thanks. That brings up the question of whether the women in Ishuäl are just that, broodmares. Well, all Earva societies are patriarchal, so I don't see why Dunyain would be any different. While they cut their ties to outside world after they found Ishual, it's almost certain they still retained their old prejudices and social norms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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