Bakker XXXI: What Comes After

[Brennan]

@Sci

That plus what is the likelihood of the bearer becoming Marked from its use? However, I do not think that the artifact would have a continuous effect on the onto at all times, but maybe it does when it is in use? Like when it is in a passive mode or inactive, no. But when powered on and working, yes?

IDK cuz its levels to this sh*t!

However, what about the gate to the Library at Sauglish? That certainly scarred the Onto, but how much of that was from it being a magical artifact versus the type of magic that was used? Soul trapping, etc.

[Madness]

In another effort to channel these "semi-focused" speculations since I'm no longer participating:

Sorcerous Artifacts

Weapons of Animata

[lokisnow]

We know not what this tapestry signifies. Together with the frequent mentions of tapestries in A Feast For Crows takes the top spot of textile art-related mysteries in current fantasy literature.

Clearly both are references to Indiana Jones and the last crusade.

I suspect the hypnotic nature of the arras weaken men to Kellhus' influence. That, or any attempt to attack Kellhus would be met with a negating effect. Can a ward read the intent in a psyche?

Or it may simply be meant to demonstrate Kellhus' power, that he can create magical artifacts. Imagine a weaponized False Sun, searing through the Consult ranks even as the Daimos raises mountainous Ciphrang...

Like most things in bakkers world, stuff like sorceress objects are left by the author deliberately opaque until a later reveal that is more like a retcon.

But if I were to hazard a guess I would say the non men have been established as having very peculiar visual perception or visual field. The arras was probably designed by Kellhus to short circuit that visual field without their knowing it, like a test for color blindness they literally cannot see the arras the way the humans do.

[Hello World]

That plus what is the likelihood of the bearer becoming Marked from its use? However, I do not think that the artifact would have a continuous effect on the onto at all times, but maybe it does when it is in use? Like when it is in a passive mode or inactive, no. But when powered on and working, yes?

Something like the False Sun should have an effect on the areas it’s lighting continuously. Whether the carrier is marked depends on whether it can be turned on and off, and whether that is done with sorcery.

But I wonder why Chorae can’t erase the Mark from the Onta.

[Rhom]

Something like the False Sun should have an effect on the areas it’s lighting continuously. Whether the carrier is marked depends on whether it can be turned on and off, and whether that is done with sorcery.

But I wonder why Chorae can’t erase the Mark from the Onta.

Why? Mimara is able to maintain the Surrillic Point and isn't marked. (I think that's what it was called... the light that Akka summoned in Moria.)

[SilentRoamer]

Yeah I think Rhom is right.

There is a clear distinction in the text between holding the meaning of a Cant and actually Canting. Similar thing with how they test whether people can see the Onta - the testing of the Few doesn't Mark the one being tested, it is only after been taught to instigate the meaning rather than hold the existing meaning. I liken it to mathematics, understanding/doing the calculus will Mark you, holding the answer won't because holding the answer doesn't mean you can extrapolate the meaning.

That's how I see it anyway - text is definitely open to interpretation.

[Hello World]

Why? Mimara is able to maintain the Surrillic Point and isn't marked. (I think that's what it was called... the light that Akka summoned in Moria.)

You may be right, but I always thought there was something off about those scenes. Didn’t she have a Chorae herself?

[Sci-2]

If artifacts don't inflict Marks on their users, wouldn't we see more armies equipped with magic weapons? Or is the ability to craft a largely lost art?

If the latter, shouldn't someone have made a remark about how Kellhus is the first Artificier in ages?

[unJon]

If artifacts don't inflict Marks on their users, wouldn't we see more armies equipped with magic weapons? Or is the ability to craft a largely lost art?

If the latter, shouldn't someone have made a remark about how Kellhus is the first Artificier in ages?

unless you still need to be of the Few to use the artifact even though the Mark is not impacted. This is precisely the case wit the Wathi doll. Dunno if that logic exports to other artifacts.

[Sci-2]

unless you still need to be of the Few to use the artifact even though the Mark is not impacted. This is precisely the case wit the Wathi doll. Dunno if that logic exports to other artifacts.

Yet we should then see recruitment of the Few. Perhaps even breeding for Few bloodlines amongst the "World-Born".

I guess you could say the disfigurement of the onta, and possibly the creation of topoi, created an early injuction against sorcery in the Five Tribes...but I'm not sure if that holds water in the Bakkerverse where traditions arise for the sake of domination. If sorcery allowed one tribe to dominate another, wouldn't tradition have made the Mark a thing of beauty?

Then again, as a genuinely enchanted world Earwa might have determinate/Platonic aesthetics.

[Rhom]

You may be right, but I always thought there was something off about those scenes. Didn’t she have a Chorae herself?

I don't recall if she holds the light after she gets the chorea or not. She picks the chorea up in the middle of their first fight. Would have to go back and look.

ETA: Actually, now that I think about it. Isn't Akka pretty much unconscious from that first fight until they are nearly out? I think she probably does hold the light even while carrying the chorea.

[SilentRoamer]

Rhom I think that's correct.

If you are tested and confirmed as one of the Few, then a Chorae will still not "work" on you until you have properly canted. Otherwise all of the Few would always be susceptible to Chorae by their nature?

I think we need a more comprehensive understanding of Chorae mechanics but I suspect damnation is part of the equation.

[Rhom]

Rhom I think that's correct.

If you are tested and confirmed as one of the Few, then a Chorae will still not "work" on you until you have properly canted. Otherwise all of the Few would always be susceptible to Chorae by their nature?

I think we need a more comprehensive understanding of Chorae mechanics but I suspect damnation is part of the equation.

Yes. But why didn't the chorae interrupt the light just by its proximity?

[SilentRoamer]

Could it have something to do with the "relative" scarring of the Onta? So similar to how more powerful sorcerer's are affected by Chorae at varying ranges, then spells have a similar correlative factor?

So a very minor spell is largely unaffected.

Also Mimara does some crazy inversion on the Chorae IIRC with Sarl? describing it as twin points of shadow or something to that effect. So Mimara's relationships with Chorae may not be indicative of the underlying mechanisms as we really don't know how she banished the Wight with the inverted Chorae (Tear of God). As I suspect upthread I think Chorae have some relationship with damnation and more specifically the Inverse Fire is an extension of the Aporos.

Alternatively... noble goats and evil chickens.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Yes. But why didn't the chorae interrupt the light just by its proximity?

Didn't his happen at one point? Kosoter's chorae or mimara's soaked up light from either the point or the bar of heaven? Or maybe I'm imagining this.

[unJon]

Didn't his happen at one point? Kosoter's chorae or mimara's soaked up light from either the point or the bar of heaven? Or maybe I'm imagining this.

I do recall that the Chorae did not reflect the magic light.

[unJon]

Yet we should then see recruitment of the Few. Perhaps even breeding for Few bloodlines amongst the "World-Born".

I guess you could say the disfigurement of the onta, and possibly the creation of topoi, created an early injuction against sorcery in the Five Tribes...but I'm not sure if that holds water in the Bakkerverse where traditions arise for the sake of domination. If sorcery allowed one tribe to dominate another, wouldn't tradition have made the Mark a thing of beauty?

Then again, as a genuinely enchanted world Earwa might have determinate/Platonic aesthetics.

We do see recruitment of the few. There is Akka's childhood tale about it. Kel also does it hardcore with the females. Kel may have no need to breed them given timing it would take too long. why there hasn't been historical breeding for it has always been a question I felt was not satisfactorily addressed in the text.

Regarding ancient history, there are references to Shaman, which may be exactly what you postulate: tribes that view sorcery with beauty. We don't really know much more I think. There was a war of prophets vs shaman and prophets won. Possibly the Inchoroi had a hand in it given we know they were manipulating humans at the time of the Breaking of the Gates. Dunno.

In modern times, Kel does do exactly what you postulate. He makes sorcery holy as a new meme. And it's a kick ass one

[Wise Fool]

What if Chorae aren't Tears of God, but Tears of God?

I mean tearing as in "tearing apart." Actual chunks of the God. So the God, fractured into a million warring pieces, is a literal concept. But who Tore up God?

[Sci-2]

We do see recruitment of the few. There is Akka's childhood tale about it. Kel also does it hardcore with the females. Kel may have no need to breed them given timing it would take too long. why there hasn't been historical breeding for it has always been a question I felt was not satisfactorily addressed in the text.

I was thinking of the time before Kellhus. There is recruitment by the schools, but I mean a wider drive to recruit anyone who can apprehend the onta and train them to fight with magical weapons. Why are those librarians who are un-Marked allowed to chill and organize books if they can wield magical blades?

[Castel]

Fascinating idea, but I can't see it. The stuff you italicized is great supporting material, but here's what trips me up:

If they were literal tears in the God would they not be like sorcerers themselves? Sorcery is the thing that tears up the fabric of the God's creation. So it's hard for me to see how the chorae could sort up tear up the thing that's creating the tears.

Does that make sense? Not well-worded on my part.

But isn't this conflating the creator with the creation? Sorcery fucks with the world, but I always assumed that The God was divided amongst souls, not necessarily every little bit of the world.

Also: isn't the problem with sorcery that it's a knock-off version of the real thing?